Challenger 604 off runway in Almaty

[jonjuan]

Count me with Dinger and blzr on this one. Tons of Challengers flying out there. Most pilots follow proper deicing procedures and never have a problem. Can remember 600 Initial at FSI Montreal when the lads stood up there in g/s reiterating numerous times: "This wing hates ice!" Most of us paid attention and behaved accordingly. I've always found the 600/601 to be a good, solid airplane, capable in the weather when the usual SOPs are followed.

Bingo-how many of the over 1000 121 CRJs with the same wing have had a similar accidents/incidents? None.

 

[GVFlyer]

Bingo-how many of the over 1000 121 CRJs with the same wing have had a similar accidents/incidents? None.

How about these?


Date of Accident: 16 December 1997

Airline: Air Canada

Aircraft: Bombardier Canadair CRJ-100

Location: Fredericton, Canada

Registration: C-FSKI

Flight Number: 646

Fatalities: 42

Accident report extract:

Ice accretion studies indicate that the aircraft was in an icing environment for at least 60 seconds prior to the stall, and that during this period a thin layer of mixed ice with some degree of roughness probably accumulated on the leading edges of the wings. Any ice on the wings would have reduced the safety margins of the stall protection system.


John Clark spoke directly to this mishap in this article.

A History of Disturbing Icing Accidents

Air Safety Week, May 12, 2003

John Clark, NTSB head of aviation accident investigations, May 6 presentation to the safety board (extracts):

" The Canadair CRJ accident in Fredericton, Canada, had ice as a factor during an attempted go-around.

"Regional jets such as the CRJ … have hard leading edge wings. That is, there are no leading edge slats. This wing type is a common factor in a number of major icing accidents…Staff is concerned about the increasing number of smaller, regional jets operating in icing conditions."

"We have another case under investigation in the UK. The Challenger is a turbojet, hard leading edge airplane. The supercritical wing is especially susceptible to the effects of upper wing contamination. We understand that the airplane was not deiced before takeoff. If this is an accident related to upper wing ice, it is a chilling reminder of the upper wing ice contamination accidents from 10-20 years ago...


Here’s another CRJ icing mishap:


BEIJING (Reuters) - A China Eastern commuter plane crashed into a frozen lake seconds after takeoff in Inner Mongolia Sunday, killing all 53 passengers and crew, state media said.


The Bombardier CRJ200, operated by two pilots, had taken off from Baotou, nearly 360 miles west of Beijing, en route to eastern Shanghai, Xinhua news agency and China Eastern Airlines Corp. Ltd. said.


The weather was clear, with the temperature around 43 to 45 Fahrenheit, when the plane, operated by a unit of China Eastern, the Yunnan Branch Co., crashed into the lake in the giant Nanhai Park at 8:20 a.m., an airport official.



The findings for the following accident have not been published, but it seems similar to all the others.

Challenger 850 crashes at Moscow airport
Date: Tuesday, 13 February 2007 @ 13:17:16 EST
Topic: General Aviation​

An aircraft thought to be a small business jet has crashed at Moscow's Vnukovo airport, Russian officials say. The plane, which was reported to be carrying crew but no passengers, is said to have crashed on take-off at about 1350 GMT.

A corporate jet carrying only its crew crashed at a Moscow airport on Tuesday while taking off during a snowstorm, officials said. Everyone on board survived.

Khikmatov said 4 crew members were on board and 2 were injured.

Moscow was enveloped in blowing snow Tuesday. Vnukovo closed after the accident and the plane was being removed from the runway, Russian news agencies reported.

http://hectop.livejournal.com/375046.html#cutid1



GV

 

[GEXDriver]

So, I guess everyone else in the corporate world is O.K. taking off with a little contamination? These posts are absurd.....I don't care what wing you have (yes, this applies to all the Gulfstream drivers) You don't leave without a clean wing....Challengers may be more prone to icing due to the super critical wing, but if you sit in your arm chair and "my airplane could have handled that"....then you, dumbass....are the next statistic!

Amazingly arrogant post!

Your qualifications to evaluate the aerodynamic qualities of the Gulfstream wing are what?

Your profile doesn't show you to be qualified in either type.

Although GVFlyer is not exactly objective (he's an engineering test pilot at Gulfstream), he substantiated his assertions with examples and statements from the FAA, the NTSB and Bombardier Aircraft Company.

Gulfstream jets have been flying for over 40 years with no icing mishaps. Looks to me like Challengers and their derivatives have had at least 7 icing accidents in the last 10 years.

We operate both types and are acutely aware of the Bombardier's limitations.

We operate from an airport in the Northeast with typical winter weather, so we exercise professional diligence in the operation of all our aircraft. However, the level of apprehension present in winter ops with our Global is largely absent when we fly our G-IV.

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Looks like ruhroa and GEXDriver are pretty smart. The rest of the Challenger pilots appear to be in denial. The Falcon 2000 works well in inclement conditions.

 

[Launchpad]

"Bingo-how many of the over 1000 121 CRJs with the same wing have had a similar accidents/incidents? None."

How many 121 operators have fat cats in the back telling them to hurry up while complaining about the cost of de-icing? When a Challenger takes off with a contaminated wing and crashes, it's pilot error not an airframe issue.

I agree with Dinger, previous posts make me shake my head.

 

[SeaSpray]

Do you Challenger guys even read the previous posts before you throw up a reply?

There have been four or more Canadair Regional Jet icing accidents in addition to at least three Challenger icing accidents and one Challenger fatality departure stall accident.

Other large cabin modern jets do not have this accident history.

Even the NTSB's Jim Clark said it was a CRJ/Challenger airframe issue.

Like NJAFracPilot said, you guys are in denial.


SS

 

[G100driver]

No matter how you slice it, all of these Challenger accidents were pilot error ... not the design of the airplane.

I do not think that it makes Dinger arrogant for pointing that out.

What makes pilots arrogant is thinking they they do not have to follow accepted rules and procdures.

 

[SeaSpray]

What you're suggesting, G100, is that the population of pilots flying Challengers are not as good as pilots flying other large cabin business jets because they are the only ones having icing/departure accidents.

I don't think this is the case. What I do think is that when the rest of us screw up in an icing situation our airplane doesn't kill us.

Dinger is arrogant because of his tone and regardless of what he says; statistically the next departure icing mishap will be another Challenger/ CRJ.



SS

 

[Bumz_Rush]

For a less hazing view I suggest you look at the sister site. www.pprune.com, Coprporate and Bizz Jet forum.

bumz

 

[Launchpad]

"""Dinger is arrogant because of his tone and regardless of what he says; statistically the next departure icing mishap will be another Challenger/ CRJ."""

I'll go ahead and disagree. I mentioned above that most all icing mishaps are pilot error, sometimes judgement of just departing.

The next icing accident will be because of pilot error, there is a chance that it could be a Challenger, or a G5, or a citation. All those planes have the same limitation.... "CLEAN AIRCRAFT CONCEPT"

 

[LJ45]

Maybe we should exclude the CL 300 until we get more data, since it has a new wing?

 

[svcta]

I've spent a lot of time on this wing with ice all around and I've been de-iced dozens and dozens of times.....and never had one of these problems(obviously). As it has been said, this wing is intolerant of any contamination so you simply DON'T TRY IT.

It was said above that the airline guys don't have the pressure of the high-rollers telling us to go go go.....why hasn't anyone addressed this issue here?

I know we all perceive pressure from the back in this environment, but that stuff will kill you. I would certainly agree that there is a vulnerability to contamination that is greater than average in this case, but I don't think of it as a flaw in the airframe.

There are far too many of these wings flying around day-in and day-out for it to be inherently dangerous....just (as the saying goes) terribly unforgiving of any oversight or neglect. As said above: CLEAN AIRCRAFT

P.S. I think the accident with C-FSKI was a low-energy go around, not a direct result of airframe ice, but a botched landing gone wrong(aren't they all).

 

[ruhroa]

P.S. I think the accident with C-FSKI was a low-energy go around, not a direct result of airframe ice, but a botched landing gone wrong(aren't they all).......unless the ice was picked up on the desent

 

[Wiggums]

There are many factors listed in the Air Canada accident, including the possibility being that ice accumulated on the wing. The reasoning is that the aircraft stalled 4.5 degrees before the engineering data shows it would. Interestedly enough, the TSB figures that missing and protruding sealant accounted for the aircraft stalling 2 degrees early. The main reason for the accident was poor airmanship.

The Challenger 850 accident in Moscow is still unclear. The crew was attempting to takeoff with the nose wheel steering MELd which is not permitted on a contaminated runway which may have been a factor.

The Birmingham pilots were negligent. All other aircraft parked around them were deicing, for some reason they did not. It's not like a Falcon or Gulfstream didn't deice either and made it.

 

[ttflyer]

Maybe we should exclude the CL 300 until we get more data, since it has a new wing?

Agreed. The 300 has a completely different wing then the other Challenger series. Bombardier's Advisory Wire about ice contamination does not apply to the 300.

That being said, like all airplanes, the wing must be free from contamination prior to flight...