Challenger 604 off runway in Almaty

[Dinger]

So, I guess everyone else in the corporate world is O.K. taking off with a little contamination? These posts are absurd.....I don't care what wing you have (yes, this applies to all the Gulfstream drivers) You don't leave without a clean wing....Challengers may be more prone to icing due to the super critical wing, but if you sit in your arm chair and "my airplane could have handled that"....then you, dumbass....are the next statistic!

 

[Dinger]

that's because he got it right the first time. took a falcon-20 (in the sim mind you) way past the horn. airspeed got down to 80 knots and what happens, you ask? the nose drops straight ahead while i held full back pressure. one less thing to worry about

What would happen if your hero had the sim set to one wing stalling and the other one producing lift....think about it....I don't think you would have been "hi-fiving" in the sim and getting off on the ol' "Francais-poo" engineering.

 

[landlover]

What would happen if your hero had the sim set to one wing stalling and the other one producing lift....think about it....I don't think you would have been "hi-fiving" in the sim and getting off on the ol' "Francais-poo" engineering.

the conversation changed to certification. specifically, what happens during a clean wing stall. and the fact that the challenger people hadn't corrected a problem after 20 years.

 

[blzr]

excellent addition GV. note to self stay away from challengers and ice

Just get some type I & IV before you taxi out. These accidents don't happen in warm weather.

 

[westshan]

Count me with Dinger and blzr on this one. Tons of Challengers flying out there. Most pilots follow proper deicing procedures and never have a problem. Can remember 600 Initial at FSI Montreal when the lads stood up there in g/s reiterating numerous times: "This wing hates ice!" Most of us paid attention and behaved accordingly. I've always found the 600/601 to be a good, solid airplane, capable in the weather when the usual SOPs are followed.

 

[jonjuan]

Count me with Dinger and blzr on this one. Tons of Challengers flying out there. Most pilots follow proper deicing procedures and never have a problem. Can remember 600 Initial at FSI Montreal when the lads stood up there in g/s reiterating numerous times: "This wing hates ice!" Most of us paid attention and behaved accordingly. I've always found the 600/601 to be a good, solid airplane, capable in the weather when the usual SOPs are followed.

Bingo-how many of the over 1000 121 CRJs with the same wing have had a similar accidents/incidents? None.

 

[GVFlyer]

Bingo-how many of the over 1000 121 CRJs with the same wing have had a similar accidents/incidents? None.

How about these?


Date of Accident: 16 December 1997

Airline: Air Canada

Aircraft: Bombardier Canadair CRJ-100

Location: Fredericton, Canada

Registration: C-FSKI

Flight Number: 646

Fatalities: 42

Accident report extract:

Ice accretion studies indicate that the aircraft was in an icing environment for at least 60 seconds prior to the stall, and that during this period a thin layer of mixed ice with some degree of roughness probably accumulated on the leading edges of the wings. Any ice on the wings would have reduced the safety margins of the stall protection system.


John Clark spoke directly to this mishap in this article.

A History of Disturbing Icing Accidents

Air Safety Week, May 12, 2003

John Clark, NTSB head of aviation accident investigations, May 6 presentation to the safety board (extracts):

" The Canadair CRJ accident in Fredericton, Canada, had ice as a factor during an attempted go-around.

"Regional jets such as the CRJ … have hard leading edge wings. That is, there are no leading edge slats. This wing type is a common factor in a number of major icing accidents…Staff is concerned about the increasing number of smaller, regional jets operating in icing conditions."

"We have another case under investigation in the UK. The Challenger is a turbojet, hard leading edge airplane. The supercritical wing is especially susceptible to the effects of upper wing contamination. We understand that the airplane was not deiced before takeoff. If this is an accident related to upper wing ice, it is a chilling reminder of the upper wing ice contamination accidents from 10-20 years ago...


Here’s another CRJ icing mishap:


BEIJING (Reuters) - A China Eastern commuter plane crashed into a frozen lake seconds after takeoff in Inner Mongolia Sunday, killing all 53 passengers and crew, state media said.


The Bombardier CRJ200, operated by two pilots, had taken off from Baotou, nearly 360 miles west of Beijing, en route to eastern Shanghai, Xinhua news agency and China Eastern Airlines Corp. Ltd. said.


The weather was clear, with the temperature around 43 to 45 Fahrenheit, when the plane, operated by a unit of China Eastern, the Yunnan Branch Co., crashed into the lake in the giant Nanhai Park at 8:20 a.m., an airport official.



The findings for the following accident have not been published, but it seems similar to all the others.

Challenger 850 crashes at Moscow airport
Date: Tuesday, 13 February 2007 @ 13:17:16 EST
Topic: General Aviation​

An aircraft thought to be a small business jet has crashed at Moscow's Vnukovo airport, Russian officials say. The plane, which was reported to be carrying crew but no passengers, is said to have crashed on take-off at about 1350 GMT.

A corporate jet carrying only its crew crashed at a Moscow airport on Tuesday while taking off during a snowstorm, officials said. Everyone on board survived.

Khikmatov said 4 crew members were on board and 2 were injured.

Moscow was enveloped in blowing snow Tuesday. Vnukovo closed after the accident and the plane was being removed from the runway, Russian news agencies reported.

http://hectop.livejournal.com/375046.html#cutid1



GV

 

[GEXDriver]

So, I guess everyone else in the corporate world is O.K. taking off with a little contamination? These posts are absurd.....I don't care what wing you have (yes, this applies to all the Gulfstream drivers) You don't leave without a clean wing....Challengers may be more prone to icing due to the super critical wing, but if you sit in your arm chair and "my airplane could have handled that"....then you, dumbass....are the next statistic!

Amazingly arrogant post!

Your qualifications to evaluate the aerodynamic qualities of the Gulfstream wing are what?

Your profile doesn't show you to be qualified in either type.

Although GVFlyer is not exactly objective (he's an engineering test pilot at Gulfstream), he substantiated his assertions with examples and statements from the FAA, the NTSB and Bombardier Aircraft Company.

Gulfstream jets have been flying for over 40 years with no icing mishaps. Looks to me like Challengers and their derivatives have had at least 7 icing accidents in the last 10 years.

We operate both types and are acutely aware of the Bombardier's limitations.

We operate from an airport in the Northeast with typical winter weather, so we exercise professional diligence in the operation of all our aircraft. However, the level of apprehension present in winter ops with our Global is largely absent when we fly our G-IV.

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Looks like ruhroa and GEXDriver are pretty smart. The rest of the Challenger pilots appear to be in denial. The Falcon 2000 works well in inclement conditions.

 

[Launchpad]

"Bingo-how many of the over 1000 121 CRJs with the same wing have had a similar accidents/incidents? None."

How many 121 operators have fat cats in the back telling them to hurry up while complaining about the cost of de-icing? When a Challenger takes off with a contaminated wing and crashes, it's pilot error not an airframe issue.

I agree with Dinger, previous posts make me shake my head.