Challenger 300 vs. G200

[gear_guy]

Thanks fraxjockey.............we are either getting a 300 and 3 Global 5000 or a G200 and 3 450/550. I don't have a say in the selection process but just wanted to get opinions from people who actually fly these aircraft. Thanks again.

-fatburger-

Decisions, decisions......I wish I had your problems.

One time I was trying to decide between the BBJ and the 727. But then I woke up.

 

[FraxJockey]

CL30 vs. 604

Actually guys are leaving the 604 to come to the 300. The cockpit is only a few inches narrower (I don't know for a fact, just reitterating what a former 604 Capt. told me). The fuse it 12 inches narrower (but inside it is only 7 inches narrower). The performance is what won them over. They said they would gladly switch again and never look back. To me, being a former Lear guy, the cockpit is HUGE and the microwave beats the convection oven in our 604's. After being one for 6 hours, I can tell you that it is very comfortable. I stuck my head in a G400 and was surprised how small the cockpit was (I have been told that this has changed in the G450,500,550).

 

[Silver Wings]

Looks like you might want to suggest to the powers that be to take a look at some other options.

You need a mid-size with over 3,000nm range and several intercontinental aircraft.....5,000nm plus capability.

What is the delivery timescale ? There are strong indications in the press that Embraer is looking at turning out a corporate version of the 170/190 and the Legacy is already available. The Legacy achieves over 3,250nm and has FL410 capability with Cruise at M0.8. At least that came out of the recent NBAA statements.

The E170/190 variant should be capable of between 4,000nm and 5,000nm and should have great short field capability. These aircraft are being delievred now in airline format but I expect in 18 to 24 months or so Embraer may be able to deliver a corporate version (fly by wire...Honeywell Primus Epic glass cockpit etc etc.

Perhaps it would be worth a call to see what they have.

http://www.legacybyembraer.com/english/content/competitive/floorplan.asp
Certainly contrasts the G200 and CL300.

Of course for reliability and spares costs the Legacy is well proven.

The DA2000 used is an interesting idea. It has the performance but less range than a Legacy and without the warranty you are going to be paying top $$ for spares. It's also considerably smaller than a Legacy but then cabin environment and baggage may not be your major criteria. The DA2000 will be the best option if you are field limited.

I've heard that there is a wait for a CL300, and you are taking an aircraft that is straight out of flight test with little or no service life experience. Translated this means you are going to have issues....are they going to big huge issues or lots of little messy ones....time will tell...but every new aircraft has issues !

G200 residual value......Hmmm ! Good luck. There seem to be lots on the market right now.......

If I was you I'd get the powers that be to take the mixed Legacy and G400/G500 fleet.....with a possible option to trade the Legacy for a E170/190 corporate at an appropriate time. The internal configuration of the Legacy and the Gulftsreams could then be made almost identical and you get great corporate identity......for the internal and International flights.

Only a thought.

Another thought: If you are ever going to use the mid-size overseas then ETOPS is going to start to be an issue potentially. The G200 doesn't have the redundancy or multiplicity of systems and the CL300 is too new to achieve with the engine airframe combination.....you might want to look into this a little more (Both aircraft are going to need more electrical generators I think...but check).

Final thought...cockpit comfort. Gotta go to the Legacy it's huge in there. Only issue is cockpit noise for extended periods of cruise, but as the cabin is now at the standard of the DA2000 Embraer will no doubt be doing something about the front end.....

 

[banned username 2]

Two words come to mind...

Brussel Sprout...

 

[Silver Wings]

Two words come to mind...

Brussel Sprout...

One word comes to mind

Pathetic !

 

[Ty Webb]

The G200 is does have good tech support...but it needs it's. Just a towel-head design all dressed up.

Hot **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**! This village has a new idiot . . . . . Ultrarunner, who doesn;t even know the difference between an Israeli and a "towel-head", which is like saying you don't know the difference between Al Quaeda and Al Sharpton . . . . but, hey, don;t let your stupidity stop you.

 

[AA717driver]

Have we not driven the Legacy Pushers off this board?

Oh the humanity!... TC

 

[CatYaaak]

Looks like you might want to suggest to the powers that be to take a look at some other options.

The DA2000 used is an interesting idea. It has the performance but less range than a Legacy and without the warranty you are going to be paying top $$ for spares. It's also considerably smaller than a Legacy but then cabin environment and baggage may not be your major criteria. ......

...... but as the cabin is now at the standard of the DA2000 Embraer will no doubt be doing something about the front end.....

Dude, the "cabin standard" for the DA2000 and CL-series is known as "stand-up". The Legacy (if the 5'10" figure given elsewhere was accurate) isn't. I haven't even bothered to find out how wide it is, but it can't be very. How do you figure the Legacy is "considerably larger"???...the length? volume?...."larger" doesn't mean squat it only means you can get more people to duck-walk down the aisle until it's full. But if Willy Wonka was running corporate shuttles between his chocolate factories, I suppose the Oompa Loompas would think it to be a great "cabin environment", as you do.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that it's airliner-spawn....that freaky world where the pilots can just tell the people who ultimately pay their salaries to sit in their seats, shut up, and keep still until the flight is over, deep vein thrombosis notwithstanding. But somehow I think that people forking over 20+ million$$ for personal (and especially long-range) transport would like to stretch their legs occasionally, and not feel like they are aloft in a flying pencil.

 

[bigD]

But if Willy Wonka was running corporate shuttles between his chocolate factories, I suppose the Oompa Loompas would think it to be a great "cabin environment", as you do.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[501261]

You know every time I see that Legacy brochure floating around I can’t help but laugh. You know the one; it’s in every magazine, the one from Swift. And they’ve got this guy comfortably standing in the middle of a Legacy cabin looking at some documents.

Now how tall do you think this guy is? He’s got about 2 feet of headroomJ.

I’ve been in the Legacy and I know I don’t have 2’ of headroom.

 

[Silver Wings]

Dude, the "cabin standard" for the DA2000 and CL-series is known as "stand-up". The Legacy (if the 5'10" figure given elsewhere was accurate) isn't. I haven't even bothered to find out how wide it is, but it can't be very. How do you figure the Legacy is "considerably larger"???...the length? volume?...."larger" doesn't mean squat it only means you can get more people to duck-walk down the aisle until it's full. But if Willy Wonka was running corporate shuttles between his chocolate factories, I suppose the Oompa Loompas would think it to be a great "cabin environment", as you do.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that it's airliner-spawn....that freaky world where the pilots can just tell the people who ultimately pay their salaries to sit in their seats, shut up, and keep still until the flight is over, deep vein thrombosis notwithstanding. But somehow I think that people forking over 20+ million$$ for personal (and especially long-range) transport would like to stretch their legs occasionally, and not feel like they are aloft in a flying pencil.

I'm not gonna get in a mud slinging match with yah ! It ain't worth it.

I've seen pax in both Legacy and DA2000 and CL601/604's and G200's.....every one has a different comment. There are as many don't like the headroom of the Legacy as don't like the small baggage space of the others or the lack of privacy and no bed to lie down......either. I can bet on the longer flights the pax spend more time asleep than wandering around the cabin.....and the Legacy clearly has more bed space.....(either a two doubles and two singles or four singles and a double). If headroom is such a big deal the Legacy can be had with a 6ft headroom (with a 2 inch dropped center aisle)......as it doesn't look like anybody has selected this option the headroom issue would appear to be another 'red-herring'.

As there are about 40 Legacy in service worldwide in the 2.5 years they've been delivering them...... there are clearly a proportion of buyers in this class who disagree with you. I suppose we'll both just have to wait and see what the market determines........but I still say it is worth a principal evaluating the aircraft. The Legacy seems to be achieving around a 15% market share in class it is in....which certainly shows the concept of value for money (a different balance between size, performance, range etc) seems to have a certain audience even if you don't see it.

Minor point, but none of the delivered Legacy aircraft has come back onto the market yet..... so the buyers must have been reasonably pleased with the final product.

The original thread was about a CL300 vs. a G200. Surely you're not saying a G200 is better than a CL300 because the G200 has more headroom !?!?! The rubber de-icing boots of the G200 surely deserve the ridicule you seem to want to heap on the Legacy........ we're talking rubber wings here...be serious......on a $20million jet !

G200 = 6ft 4" but has a 6" dropped aisle to achieve this. Not fun when you have to manouevre in and out of a seat as the old legs dangle into that chasm.

CL300 = 6ft 1" Best in this category with a flat floor.

Legacy 5ft 10" or 6ft with 2" dropped aisle. Perhaps a better compromise than the G200, but clearly in this case the CL300 has a whole 3" headroom advantage at best....... WOw !

On the cabin width

G200/CL300 same at a quoted 7ft 2" vs. Legacy at 6ft 11" That's a whopping 3" difference metal to metal......I'd be really intrigued to know what a blind bit of difference 3" width difference makes ? ( quick answer: nothing).
If you look at the CL300 cabin profile you'll also see that the width difference is totally lost in a much wider side ledge arrangement.....


Now on cabin length (that's cabin without baggage hold area).

G200 = 24ft 6"
CL300 = 23ft 8"
Legacy = 42ft 6" <----------- ******

Almost double........ real useable space to have 3 sets of full length sleeping...with a private zone in the rear of the cabin...just like a G500/G-EX...(but let's not start that again..). OK so you don't want to sleep.......but it sure is nice to get some private time away from the other pax at the back of the aircraft, watch a film or listem to music.....there are two seperate sound systems along the length of the Legacy.

Headroom is one of the many points to be evaluated by a buyer, but you're just plain wrong if you think this one item negates all the other elements a Legacy offers...

So we agree to differ....just as the actual buyers are doing....no surprise there....

 

[AA717driver]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that it's airliner-spawn....that freaky world where the pilots can just tell the people who ultimately pay their salaries to sit in their seats, shut up, and keep still until the flight is over, deep vein thrombosis notwithstanding.

Stop it, CatYaaak, I'm getting misty-eyed with nostalga for my past... TC

 

[banned username 2]

That's a whopping 3" difference......I'd be really intrigued to know what a blind bit of difference 3" difference makes ?

Don't discount the power of 3", you wouldn't believe what I would give for an extra 3"

 

[Stearmandriver]

Of course for reliability and spares costs the Legacy is well proven.

Oh my god is that funny. Dude, we were the launch customers on this airframe, we've got 250 of them now and more coming every month, and we've got a first class mx department... which we need, just to keep these Brazilian pieces of sh*t in the air. I don't care how dressed up the cabin is... at heart, the plane is an ERJ. Translation - a semi-disposable plane, made to last 15 years if you're lucky, designed from part one to be CHEAP. Yes, it moves some people and some cargo from A to B (sometimes, when it works), but it sacrifices all comfort and alot of reliability for a lower cost. Hey, saving money is good, and it fits its low-cost airline niche well enough, but I don't see how you can compare it to an airplane that was actually designed to be a long-lasting, comfortable, reliable business jet. Two completely different design philosophies.

Final thought...cockpit comfort. Gotta go to the Legacy it's huge in there.

Huge? HUGE? LOL... compared to WHAT???

As for a corp. derivative of the 170/190, well... I was talking to a USAir guy the other day. He says they call the 170 the "180"... because that's the manuever they're executing most with it, after something breaks.

I don't know anything about the CL300 or the G200... but for gods sake, just about anything has to be better than an Embraer!

 

[banned username 2]

we've got a first class mx department... which we need, just to keep these Brazilian pieces of sh*t in the air.

at heart, the plane is an ERJ. Translation - a semi-disposable plane, made to last 15 years if you're lucky, designed from part one to be CHEAP.

it sacrifices all comfort and alot of reliability for a lower cost.

As for a corp. derivative of the 170/190, well... I was talking to a USAir guy the other day. He says they call the 170 the "180"... because that's the manuever they're executing most with it, after something breaks.

just about anything has to be better than an Embraer!

Now THERE is a testimonial!!!

Brussel Sprout...