Challenger 300 vs. G200

[Stearmandriver]

Sorry... I'm really not a negative or bitter person! Just surprised to see such a glowing testimonial to the ERJ. It strikes me as the same as putting a Yugo in the same class as a Cadillac / Lexus etc...

 

[FraxJockey]

Performance and cost

The CL30 is a BUSINESS JET, not derivative of a ERJ. I was in a LEGACY in PHX at Swift and I had 2" of head room ...AND I'M 5'7". The fact of the matter is that the CL30 wins because of the direct operating costs. I am not familiar with the performance of the Legacy, but can it climb to FL410 with 2/3 of a tank at ISA+10 within 18 mins (all the while burning 2500 the first hour and then 1900,1800,1700) or climb to F450 after the first hour? How about going coast to coast with 8 people out of 5200' strip at .80? The dispatch reliablity is just now being established, but I have yet to cancel a flight because of MX (that's after 2 months of flying). There have been some computer glitches, but they were solved after discussing with MX. We are comparing apples to brussel sprouts (sorry)...oranges.

 

[banned username 2]

We are comparing apples to brussel sprouts

YES!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

The original thread was about a CL300 vs. a G200. Surely you're not saying a G200 is better than a CL300 because the G200 has more headroom !?!?! The rubber de-icing boots of the G200 surely deserve the ridicule you seem to want to heap on the Legacy........ we're talking rubber wings here...be serious......on a $20million jet !

Many, somebody must have a pretty small Johnson outboard motor to be so concerned with having boots on a jet. Even a rocket surgeon like Ultrarunner could tell you that the advantage to having boots on a jet is no takeoff penalty departing in icing conditions . . . . .

You have yourself a nice one now, y'hear?

 

[FraxJockey]

Penalty?

So you see boots as an advantage? The penalty is self induced. I could possibly see this as an advantage on an Astra/G100 maybe, but the G200 (same wing + more weight)? The engines would take such a big hit with a hot wing, that the numbers would be pretty skewed so they opted for the only solution...boots. I don't see that as an advantage. I would rather sacrifice a reduced performance and a hot wing to popping boots on a climbout. But this is just my personal preference. The LR45 has a pretty lame climb with the A/I on, but it didn't take too big a hit on the the T/O numbers....

 

[HMR]

FraxJockey,

I've only been flying a rubber wing jet for a couple years so I don't consider myself an expert by any means. BUT... I think if you ask around you'll find that most G100/G200 operators haven't popped the boots more than a few times in their entire careers. I've NEVER popped the boots on climbout. Never had to. The wing just doesn't attract much ice. A few times while low and slow and holding I've left them on AUTO just to be safe but I think mostly it was to make sure they still worked. Besides not having a climb penalty, it's also nice on the way down through icing conditions to be able to pull the power way back and not worry about the wings getting too cold.

PS-I would love to go for a spin in that CL30. Saw one on display at KHPN the other day and it looked pretty comfy.

 

[bigD]

Are there any other business jets out there that have boots on the wing?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

All I have seen with boots is the junk from Isreal.

I have not had to use boots on the G100/G200 myself. But there have been instances where the use of boots on a Westwind during climb HAS taken out an engine.

I believe the use of boots on the G200 is NOT because of the powerplants limitations, but of the wings design. (or lack thereof)

eh... whatever...they're all $hit, just buy a DA2000.

 

[Lead Sled]

All I have seen with boots is the junk from Isreal.

I have not had to use boots on the G100/G200 myself. But there have been instances where the use of boots on a Westwind during climb HAS taken out an engine.

I believe the use of boots on the G200 is NOT because of the powerplants limitations, but of the wings design. (or lack thereof)

eh... whatever...they're all $hit, just buy a DA2000.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

I don't question the problem with potiential ice injestion on the Westwind - but look where the wing is located. I've got a buddy that somehow put a stall strip off one of the boots on an old Citation II through one of the engines. Don't ask me how it could ever happen, but it did. I know you don't have a lot of respect for the Astra/G200 wing, but I consider that one of your personal problems.

You guys need to remember that heated leading edges are considered anti-icing devices and pneumatic leading edge boots are considered deicing devices. There is a big difference between the two concepts. I've got a lot of time in high performance jet aircraft that use both types.

The problem with heated leading edge anti-ice systems is that they need heat and lots of it. The heat typically comes from an engine bleed air source. Anytime you take that much heat from an engine you also take away a significant amount of power.

For anti-ice systems to be effective you must turn them on prior to entering icing conditions, otherwise they will just melt the ice and the water will flow back to places that are protected and refreeze - not a good thing. Also, chunks of ice can come off and go through the engines (B727, DC9, MD-80, Lear, Citation, etc. Anything with rear mounted engines.)

On the aircraft that I've flown, turning on the wing heat had a significant effect on the climb capability of the aircraft, sometimes as great as 50%. The Astras and G200 have the "old fashioned" boots on the leading edges. When I first trained in the aircraft, I was very sceptical - boots on a modern jet airplane, you've got to be kidding? In the real world, they're actually pretty nice. You only use them when you need them, and they don't extract a performance penality when you do. Todate, I've got nearly 4,000 hours in Astras and G200s. And a good chunk of that time is in parts of the continent, during the time of the year, where you need that stuff. The boots work extremely well... I think. I say that because I can count on one hand the actual number of times that I've ever had to use them in self defense, all of the other times were for amusement purposes only. The wing just isn't an ice-maker.

The question is why did IAI even put the boot on the wing at all? The answer is that the Astra was originally designed to be powered with the TFE731-5 engine. However, the engines weren't quite ready when the airframe was so IAI was forced to certify the 1125 with the -3s. This engine didn't have the bleed air capacity to provide the airplane with the desired level of performance - hence, they had to glue boots to the leading edge. (Later IAI hung -40s on the airframe - the SPX/G100- and stuck with the boots since, like like the old saying goes: If it ain't broke don't fix it.) As far as the G200, the boots came with the wing. Gulfstream may get rid of the boots with the G150, but who knows? TKS is always an option. My bet is that we'll see boots on the G200 until they do something major to the wing.

Operationally, there are only a couple of limitiations associated with the boots, neither one of them is really significant. The biggest limitation is that you can't cycle the boots when the temperature is -40 degrees or less. That is significantly below the temperature where you would normally expect to pick up any airframe ice.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

Are there any other business jets out there that have boots on the wing?

A lot of Citations use boots.

'Sled

 

[Ty Webb]

All I have seen with boots is the junk from Isreal.

I have not had to use boots on the G100/G200 myself. But there have been instances where the use of boots on a Westwind during climb HAS taken out an engine.

Hmmmmm . . . . . Kindly provide a link to any report of a Westwind losing an engine by using the boots. I would sure like to see that.

I must admit to being somewhat skeptical of your knowledge of the aircraft, though, since you seem to be unable to even spell the name of the aircraft's manufacturer correctly. And it wasn't a typo- you did it in both of your posts.

It's "Israeli" not "Isreali".

What's up, Dawg? Are you down wif dat?

And speaking of "down wif dat", any 135 operator who actually follows the AOM (or AFM if you prefer) would realize the humungous benefit of boots over heated wings when blasting off from mountainous airports in icing conditions in the winter. Who cares if they look different? So does choosing between leaving pax or bags behind, or violating regs.

HAve a nice day.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hmmmmm . . . . . Kindly provide a link to any report of a Westwind losing an engine by using the boots. I would sure like to see that.

I must admit to being somewhat skeptical of your knowledge of the aircraft, though, since you seem to be unable to even spell the name of the aircraft's manufacturer correctly. And it wasn't a typo- you did it in both of your posts.

It's "Israeli" not "Isreali".

What's up, Dawg? Are you down wif dat?

And speaking of "down wif dat", any 135 operator who actually follows the AOM (or AFM if you prefer) would realize the humungous benefit of boots over heated wings when blasting off from mountainous airports in icing conditions in the winter. Who cares if they look different? So does choosing between leaving pax or bags behind, or violating regs.

HAve a nice day.

Anyone bragging about the performance "benefits" of operating a Westwind ANYWHERE is truly showing what all thier experience is in.....a Westwind...The slug has its benefits (its cheap) but its performance is downright miserable.

And as far as having something against the G200 wing. I do. Its garbage. It was maxed out on an Astra and was simply slapped on the much larger "Galaxy"..It still has the same problems. Ever look at the VREF with slat/flap failures? Ever HAVE these slat/flap failures? I have..

But hey, whatever you fly that pays the bills, great.... but anyone who chooses to buy one over a Falcon (or anything else) is bound to be very disappointed.

Just an opinion!

and TY, thanks for da spellin lesonn... hows Alabamer treatin ya'll?

 

[bigD]

A lot of Citations use boots.

'Sled

DOH! Of course!

 

[Ty Webb]

Anyone bragging about the performance "benefits" of operating a Westwind ANYWHERE is truly showing what all thier experience is in.....a Westwind...The slug has its benefits (its cheap) but its performance is downright miserable.

Hmmm, I wouldn't agree wif dat. I flew the mighty WW for 1300 hours or so, and really enjoyed it. A company I used to fly for had a WW and a Falcon 20, and the WW could beat the Falcon on any trip where we sent both airplanes. . . .

I've flown Westwinds into Telluride, Aspen, you name it . . . . . it ain't that bad, dogg.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

Hmmm, I wouldn't agree wif dat. I flew the mighty WW for 1300 hours or so, and really enjoyed it. A company I used to fly for had a WW and a Falcon 20, and the WW could beat the Falcon on any trip where we sent both airplanes. . . .

I've flown Westwinds into Telluride, Aspen, you name it . . . . . it ain't that bad, dogg.

word. whateva ride pays da bills and gets the ho's is a good ride.

know what im sayin dogg?