Challenger 300 vs. G200

[Ty Webb]

The G200 is does have good tech support...but it needs it's. Just a towel-head design all dressed up.

Hot **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED**! This village has a new idiot . . . . . Ultrarunner, who doesn;t even know the difference between an Israeli and a "towel-head", which is like saying you don't know the difference between Al Quaeda and Al Sharpton . . . . but, hey, don;t let your stupidity stop you.

 

[AA717driver]

Have we not driven the Legacy Pushers off this board?

Oh the humanity!... TC

 

[CatYaaak]

Looks like you might want to suggest to the powers that be to take a look at some other options.

The DA2000 used is an interesting idea. It has the performance but less range than a Legacy and without the warranty you are going to be paying top $$ for spares. It's also considerably smaller than a Legacy but then cabin environment and baggage may not be your major criteria. ......

...... but as the cabin is now at the standard of the DA2000 Embraer will no doubt be doing something about the front end.....

Dude, the "cabin standard" for the DA2000 and CL-series is known as "stand-up". The Legacy (if the 5'10" figure given elsewhere was accurate) isn't. I haven't even bothered to find out how wide it is, but it can't be very. How do you figure the Legacy is "considerably larger"???...the length? volume?...."larger" doesn't mean squat it only means you can get more people to duck-walk down the aisle until it's full. But if Willy Wonka was running corporate shuttles between his chocolate factories, I suppose the Oompa Loompas would think it to be a great "cabin environment", as you do.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that it's airliner-spawn....that freaky world where the pilots can just tell the people who ultimately pay their salaries to sit in their seats, shut up, and keep still until the flight is over, deep vein thrombosis notwithstanding. But somehow I think that people forking over 20+ million$$ for personal (and especially long-range) transport would like to stretch their legs occasionally, and not feel like they are aloft in a flying pencil.

 

[bigD]

But if Willy Wonka was running corporate shuttles between his chocolate factories, I suppose the Oompa Loompas would think it to be a great "cabin environment", as you do.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[501261]

You know every time I see that Legacy brochure floating around I can’t help but laugh. You know the one; it’s in every magazine, the one from Swift. And they’ve got this guy comfortably standing in the middle of a Legacy cabin looking at some documents.

Now how tall do you think this guy is? He’s got about 2 feet of headroomJ.

I’ve been in the Legacy and I know I don’t have 2’ of headroom.

 

[Silver Wings]

Dude, the "cabin standard" for the DA2000 and CL-series is known as "stand-up". The Legacy (if the 5'10" figure given elsewhere was accurate) isn't. I haven't even bothered to find out how wide it is, but it can't be very. How do you figure the Legacy is "considerably larger"???...the length? volume?...."larger" doesn't mean squat it only means you can get more people to duck-walk down the aisle until it's full. But if Willy Wonka was running corporate shuttles between his chocolate factories, I suppose the Oompa Loompas would think it to be a great "cabin environment", as you do.

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that it's airliner-spawn....that freaky world where the pilots can just tell the people who ultimately pay their salaries to sit in their seats, shut up, and keep still until the flight is over, deep vein thrombosis notwithstanding. But somehow I think that people forking over 20+ million$$ for personal (and especially long-range) transport would like to stretch their legs occasionally, and not feel like they are aloft in a flying pencil.

I'm not gonna get in a mud slinging match with yah ! It ain't worth it.

I've seen pax in both Legacy and DA2000 and CL601/604's and G200's.....every one has a different comment. There are as many don't like the headroom of the Legacy as don't like the small baggage space of the others or the lack of privacy and no bed to lie down......either. I can bet on the longer flights the pax spend more time asleep than wandering around the cabin.....and the Legacy clearly has more bed space.....(either a two doubles and two singles or four singles and a double). If headroom is such a big deal the Legacy can be had with a 6ft headroom (with a 2 inch dropped center aisle)......as it doesn't look like anybody has selected this option the headroom issue would appear to be another 'red-herring'.

As there are about 40 Legacy in service worldwide in the 2.5 years they've been delivering them...... there are clearly a proportion of buyers in this class who disagree with you. I suppose we'll both just have to wait and see what the market determines........but I still say it is worth a principal evaluating the aircraft. The Legacy seems to be achieving around a 15% market share in class it is in....which certainly shows the concept of value for money (a different balance between size, performance, range etc) seems to have a certain audience even if you don't see it.

Minor point, but none of the delivered Legacy aircraft has come back onto the market yet..... so the buyers must have been reasonably pleased with the final product.

The original thread was about a CL300 vs. a G200. Surely you're not saying a G200 is better than a CL300 because the G200 has more headroom !?!?! The rubber de-icing boots of the G200 surely deserve the ridicule you seem to want to heap on the Legacy........ we're talking rubber wings here...be serious......on a $20million jet !

G200 = 6ft 4" but has a 6" dropped aisle to achieve this. Not fun when you have to manouevre in and out of a seat as the old legs dangle into that chasm.

CL300 = 6ft 1" Best in this category with a flat floor.

Legacy 5ft 10" or 6ft with 2" dropped aisle. Perhaps a better compromise than the G200, but clearly in this case the CL300 has a whole 3" headroom advantage at best....... WOw !

On the cabin width

G200/CL300 same at a quoted 7ft 2" vs. Legacy at 6ft 11" That's a whopping 3" difference metal to metal......I'd be really intrigued to know what a blind bit of difference 3" width difference makes ? ( quick answer: nothing).
If you look at the CL300 cabin profile you'll also see that the width difference is totally lost in a much wider side ledge arrangement.....


Now on cabin length (that's cabin without baggage hold area).

G200 = 24ft 6"
CL300 = 23ft 8"
Legacy = 42ft 6" <----------- ******

Almost double........ real useable space to have 3 sets of full length sleeping...with a private zone in the rear of the cabin...just like a G500/G-EX...(but let's not start that again..). OK so you don't want to sleep.......but it sure is nice to get some private time away from the other pax at the back of the aircraft, watch a film or listem to music.....there are two seperate sound systems along the length of the Legacy.

Headroom is one of the many points to be evaluated by a buyer, but you're just plain wrong if you think this one item negates all the other elements a Legacy offers...

So we agree to differ....just as the actual buyers are doing....no surprise there....

 

[AA717driver]

Oh yeah, I keep forgetting that it's airliner-spawn....that freaky world where the pilots can just tell the people who ultimately pay their salaries to sit in their seats, shut up, and keep still until the flight is over, deep vein thrombosis notwithstanding.

Stop it, CatYaaak, I'm getting misty-eyed with nostalga for my past... TC

 

[banned username 2]

That's a whopping 3" difference......I'd be really intrigued to know what a blind bit of difference 3" difference makes ?

Don't discount the power of 3", you wouldn't believe what I would give for an extra 3"

 

[Stearmandriver]

Of course for reliability and spares costs the Legacy is well proven.

Oh my god is that funny. Dude, we were the launch customers on this airframe, we've got 250 of them now and more coming every month, and we've got a first class mx department... which we need, just to keep these Brazilian pieces of sh*t in the air. I don't care how dressed up the cabin is... at heart, the plane is an ERJ. Translation - a semi-disposable plane, made to last 15 years if you're lucky, designed from part one to be CHEAP. Yes, it moves some people and some cargo from A to B (sometimes, when it works), but it sacrifices all comfort and alot of reliability for a lower cost. Hey, saving money is good, and it fits its low-cost airline niche well enough, but I don't see how you can compare it to an airplane that was actually designed to be a long-lasting, comfortable, reliable business jet. Two completely different design philosophies.

Final thought...cockpit comfort. Gotta go to the Legacy it's huge in there.

Huge? HUGE? LOL... compared to WHAT???

As for a corp. derivative of the 170/190, well... I was talking to a USAir guy the other day. He says they call the 170 the "180"... because that's the manuever they're executing most with it, after something breaks.

I don't know anything about the CL300 or the G200... but for gods sake, just about anything has to be better than an Embraer!

 

[banned username 2]

we've got a first class mx department... which we need, just to keep these Brazilian pieces of sh*t in the air.

at heart, the plane is an ERJ. Translation - a semi-disposable plane, made to last 15 years if you're lucky, designed from part one to be CHEAP.

it sacrifices all comfort and alot of reliability for a lower cost.

As for a corp. derivative of the 170/190, well... I was talking to a USAir guy the other day. He says they call the 170 the "180"... because that's the manuever they're executing most with it, after something breaks.

just about anything has to be better than an Embraer!

Now THERE is a testimonial!!!

Brussel Sprout...

 

[Stearmandriver]

Sorry... I'm really not a negative or bitter person! Just surprised to see such a glowing testimonial to the ERJ. It strikes me as the same as putting a Yugo in the same class as a Cadillac / Lexus etc...

 

[FraxJockey]

Performance and cost

The CL30 is a BUSINESS JET, not derivative of a ERJ. I was in a LEGACY in PHX at Swift and I had 2" of head room ...AND I'M 5'7". The fact of the matter is that the CL30 wins because of the direct operating costs. I am not familiar with the performance of the Legacy, but can it climb to FL410 with 2/3 of a tank at ISA+10 within 18 mins (all the while burning 2500 the first hour and then 1900,1800,1700) or climb to F450 after the first hour? How about going coast to coast with 8 people out of 5200' strip at .80? The dispatch reliablity is just now being established, but I have yet to cancel a flight because of MX (that's after 2 months of flying). There have been some computer glitches, but they were solved after discussing with MX. We are comparing apples to brussel sprouts (sorry)...oranges.

 

[banned username 2]

We are comparing apples to brussel sprouts

YES!!!

 

[Ty Webb]

The original thread was about a CL300 vs. a G200. Surely you're not saying a G200 is better than a CL300 because the G200 has more headroom !?!?! The rubber de-icing boots of the G200 surely deserve the ridicule you seem to want to heap on the Legacy........ we're talking rubber wings here...be serious......on a $20million jet !

Many, somebody must have a pretty small Johnson outboard motor to be so concerned with having boots on a jet. Even a rocket surgeon like Ultrarunner could tell you that the advantage to having boots on a jet is no takeoff penalty departing in icing conditions . . . . .

You have yourself a nice one now, y'hear?

 

[FraxJockey]

Penalty?

So you see boots as an advantage? The penalty is self induced. I could possibly see this as an advantage on an Astra/G100 maybe, but the G200 (same wing + more weight)? The engines would take such a big hit with a hot wing, that the numbers would be pretty skewed so they opted for the only solution...boots. I don't see that as an advantage. I would rather sacrifice a reduced performance and a hot wing to popping boots on a climbout. But this is just my personal preference. The LR45 has a pretty lame climb with the A/I on, but it didn't take too big a hit on the the T/O numbers....

 

[HMR]

FraxJockey,

I've only been flying a rubber wing jet for a couple years so I don't consider myself an expert by any means. BUT... I think if you ask around you'll find that most G100/G200 operators haven't popped the boots more than a few times in their entire careers. I've NEVER popped the boots on climbout. Never had to. The wing just doesn't attract much ice. A few times while low and slow and holding I've left them on AUTO just to be safe but I think mostly it was to make sure they still worked. Besides not having a climb penalty, it's also nice on the way down through icing conditions to be able to pull the power way back and not worry about the wings getting too cold.

PS-I would love to go for a spin in that CL30. Saw one on display at KHPN the other day and it looked pretty comfy.

 

[bigD]

Are there any other business jets out there that have boots on the wing?

 

[Gulfstream 200]

All I have seen with boots is the junk from Isreal.

I have not had to use boots on the G100/G200 myself. But there have been instances where the use of boots on a Westwind during climb HAS taken out an engine.

I believe the use of boots on the G200 is NOT because of the powerplants limitations, but of the wings design. (or lack thereof)

eh... whatever...they're all $hit, just buy a DA2000.

 

[Lead Sled]

All I have seen with boots is the junk from Isreal.

I have not had to use boots on the G100/G200 myself. But there have been instances where the use of boots on a Westwind during climb HAS taken out an engine.

I believe the use of boots on the G200 is NOT because of the powerplants limitations, but of the wings design. (or lack thereof)

eh... whatever...they're all $hit, just buy a DA2000.

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree with you on this one.

I don't question the problem with potiential ice injestion on the Westwind - but look where the wing is located. I've got a buddy that somehow put a stall strip off one of the boots on an old Citation II through one of the engines. Don't ask me how it could ever happen, but it did. I know you don't have a lot of respect for the Astra/G200 wing, but I consider that one of your personal problems.

You guys need to remember that heated leading edges are considered anti-icing devices and pneumatic leading edge boots are considered deicing devices. There is a big difference between the two concepts. I've got a lot of time in high performance jet aircraft that use both types.

The problem with heated leading edge anti-ice systems is that they need heat and lots of it. The heat typically comes from an engine bleed air source. Anytime you take that much heat from an engine you also take away a significant amount of power.

For anti-ice systems to be effective you must turn them on prior to entering icing conditions, otherwise they will just melt the ice and the water will flow back to places that are protected and refreeze - not a good thing. Also, chunks of ice can come off and go through the engines (B727, DC9, MD-80, Lear, Citation, etc. Anything with rear mounted engines.)

On the aircraft that I've flown, turning on the wing heat had a significant effect on the climb capability of the aircraft, sometimes as great as 50%. The Astras and G200 have the "old fashioned" boots on the leading edges. When I first trained in the aircraft, I was very sceptical - boots on a modern jet airplane, you've got to be kidding? In the real world, they're actually pretty nice. You only use them when you need them, and they don't extract a performance penality when you do. Todate, I've got nearly 4,000 hours in Astras and G200s. And a good chunk of that time is in parts of the continent, during the time of the year, where you need that stuff. The boots work extremely well... I think. I say that because I can count on one hand the actual number of times that I've ever had to use them in self defense, all of the other times were for amusement purposes only. The wing just isn't an ice-maker.

The question is why did IAI even put the boot on the wing at all? The answer is that the Astra was originally designed to be powered with the TFE731-5 engine. However, the engines weren't quite ready when the airframe was so IAI was forced to certify the 1125 with the -3s. This engine didn't have the bleed air capacity to provide the airplane with the desired level of performance - hence, they had to glue boots to the leading edge. (Later IAI hung -40s on the airframe - the SPX/G100- and stuck with the boots since, like like the old saying goes: If it ain't broke don't fix it.) As far as the G200, the boots came with the wing. Gulfstream may get rid of the boots with the G150, but who knows? TKS is always an option. My bet is that we'll see boots on the G200 until they do something major to the wing.

Operationally, there are only a couple of limitiations associated with the boots, neither one of them is really significant. The biggest limitation is that you can't cycle the boots when the temperature is -40 degrees or less. That is significantly below the temperature where you would normally expect to pick up any airframe ice.

'Sled

 

[Lead Sled]

Are there any other business jets out there that have boots on the wing?

A lot of Citations use boots.

'Sled