Centurion Cargo

[gringo]

If I remember correctly they were flying accross the pond below RVSM... You'd think that if the Gemeni guys were as smart as you say they were, they would have gotten the MNPS qual... Did they ever get it?

You say the last 2 guys' recall was cancelled. Are you talking about 2 FEs? If so, they told me they would only go back if they could upgrade to the right seat.

There could have been some FE's that I'm not aware of on furlough, but the 2 I was referring to were FO's at the bottom of the list. There were 2 others that passed over their original recall; one was an FO, the other one I'm not sure of. Perhaps he was an FE.

As far as MNPS, I vaguely remember the new management working on geting the quals, equipment and certification. They were also working on many other projects that would bring Centurion up to speed capability wise with Gemini and the other "better" ACMI's, but (this isn't verified, but I heard it from more than one good source) they ran out of money. I believe I heard that the owner misrepresented the capital that the new guys had to work with, and was in fact siphoning off monies to other projects, whether it be Cielos, his new airline in Brazil (MTA I think it was) or whatever- the bottom line is that the money that Bill Stockbridge and company were supposed to work with evaporated. Again, there was no way for any of this to be verified easily- just stuff I've read on the bathroom walls...

 

[FearlessFreep]

What you all don't realize is that we are all one regulatory step away from losing our jobs to Juan, Jorge & Jesus (no insult intended to Hispanic Americans).

The thing is now governmental law says that U.S. Citizens ONLY operate 121 Air Carrier aircraft. With the current administration's attitude and prevalent actions taken in outsourcing all our jobs we are on a precarious and slippery slope. One inconvenient rider on a bigger bill passed through Congress will send us on our way to the burgeoning unemployment line. Seeing how the government is so willing to outsource other security sensitive operations to countries hostile to our lifestyle, having "un-Americans" flying our aircraft will not even ruffle the feathers of TSA. I am sure that they will chase down and pursue some other ridiculous crumb that can be construed as being far more important than just foreign pilots which are already operating in our country.

As far as "One Union - ALPA!" battle cry, what about the other non-ALPA unions? I would have to say that you will have a hard time convincing the membership roles of the SWA, AA, & UPS pilot organizations to jump on the ALPA bandwagon. Currently it seems that ALPA has not done too much to help pilot's plight. Most of what they are doing now is to comply with concessions that "big bad management" has been telling them to take with the threat of shutting down the affected airline.

What ALPA has not done is work effectively with corporate management in getting fair & equitable wages for the work performed and simultaneously fostering an environment of mutual respect & cooperation between management/ownership and labor. ALPA's tactics have always been to strong arm management into astronomical wages that inevitably are given up at a later date. It is ALPA that is more apt to drive a wedge between management and labor more than any independent pilot group and their associated company management.

All of this is not to say that there will never be strife between management and labor. It just seems that the installation of ALPA usually is akin to putting out fire with gasoline.

Another thing, ALPA NEVER supports the little guy. I watched Emery get flushed down the toilet as ALPA pursued Fedex. Emery pilots were just chattel to the bigger and more well compensated pilot roles of Fedex. Just look how ALPA sent Comair down the river. How can you call the representation of Delta Airlines & Comair as fair & equitable? It clearly is a conflict of interest. Seeing how a Delta pilot (even after the cuts) makes more in three months than a Comair pilot does in a year, who do you think is going to get that fat Georgia Peach? I can assure you it's not the little guy.

ALPA is a business and as such should be seen just as another extension of the management structure. It's all about how much can be extracted in membership dues. The bigger the salary, the bigger the take. Kind of makes you feel like a stooge for another "management" group doesn't it?

If I was to be a member of any pilot labor organization it would have to be the IPA (Independent Pilots Group - UPS Pilot representation). They seem to be the most powerful union in aviation and from what I have heard they look after their charges most effectively and completely. Just don't work for an airline that gets purchased by UPS because you will NOT BE ASSIMILATED! That appears to be from the outside the biggest negative to this group.

Good Luck To Us All!

 

[HA25]

I agree ALPA is flawed.. for me it's the lesser of evils. The problem with in-house unions, as APA found out is they have a lot less political muscle than a national union with a large membership. In the end, this is all waged and played out in the halls of congress. When an IPA or APA goes on strike, a president (democrat or republican) is far more likely to bust that strike (as Clinton did to APA) than if it were part of a much larger lobby group.

I don't know what the answer is... but I know what it's not: Non-Union upstarts.. They're all just taking advantage of a bad situation and it makes me sick.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I don't know what the answer is... but I know what it's not: Non-Union upstarts

Just about all airlines/corporations started non-union. The development of unions was in response to Orwellian corporate management, with the proverbial boot heel of Big Brother on the necks of labor.

If company management/ownership is not draconian in handling labor there would be no need for unions. The government has oscillated with the support of management and labor, this is evidenced by child labor laws that were put in place, and the current manner that outsourcing is promoted and justified.

The answer is not what you suggest either, and it certainly is not ALPA.

V70T5, your just too much of a socialist for me and admittedly you seem a bit pink with your labor/union extremism. Workers Unite! Down with the Bougeoisie!

I am too much of an individualist for this kind of rhetoric.

I am all for being well compensated for the work that I perform. I can certainly take umbrage to seeing how people get mistreated in the work environment. People make their own personal decisions and/or concessions in what they have to do to make a way in the world. That is just the way it is here in the good ol' US of A, I don't see that changing in the immediate future.

Most of what has been addressed here are pay/lifestyle issues and ALPA's effect on these. What has not been discussed is the dismal support of ALPA members on other job related issues. I have talked to a number of good people that have been sent down the river by the unions with not even the slightest shred of support.

 

[HA25]

V70T5, your just too much of a socialist for me and admittedly you seem a bit pink with your labor/union extremism. Workers Unite! Down with the Bougeoisie

be careful with labels like that.

I consider myself to be quite conservative, but yes I'm also more socialistic than I used to be. You can't trust the free market to give workers what they deserve.. they have to negotiate for it with a union at their back. But political labels are lame... after all, how do you categorize someone like me? I'm hard right wing Roman Catholic, pro-life, anti-feminst, anti-flag burning, bla bla bla, etc..

Yet, I do care a about the plight of the working stiff. Liberal? Conservative? Socialist, communist (God no!)?

Forget the labels and get focused..

Here let me help you: http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...tsView.aspx?itemid=446&ModuleId=939&Tabid=181

 

[Bellerophon]

Just don't work for an airline that gets purchased by UPS because you will NOT BE ASSIMILATED! That appears to be from the outside the biggest negative to this group.

We differ in opinion. The Challenge Air pilots had not signed their first contract. Therefore, had no merger rights. So I would say, don't get purchased by any airline until you have a first contract. Now that still may not save you, but at least you get your day in court. We (World) tried to tell that to NAA as factor to merge along side the wipsaw possibilities. NAA declined. Now our holding company is now shopping around to either buy, sell or merge (as per 3Q investor call). NAA does not have a first contract and World does. I have a feeling my opinions may be put to the test soon.

Bel

 

[B737Dvr]

I agree ALPA is flawed.. for me it's the lesser of evils. The problem with in-house unions, as APA found out is they have a lot less political muscle than a national union with a large membership. In the end, this is all waged and played out in the halls of congress. When an IPA or APA goes on strike, a president (democrat or republican) is far more likely to bust that strike (as Clinton did to APA) than if it were part of a much larger lobby group.

I don't know what the answer is... but I know what it's not: Non-Union upstarts.. They're all just taking advantage of a bad situation and it makes me sick.

I have a gripe with ALPA, i just remembered it, when i was part of a start up that is no longer in existence, we wanted ALPA, but since we were not up to 100 pilots, they wouldnt even talk to us, the IBT did and they were being brought on the property, unfortunately....we never lasted long enough and the company took its place among the has beens......but that had nothing to do with lack of a union, just bad management. ALPA will always place the big gusy before the little guys, like someone else said, they are a business. they have done much for pilots, but when push comes to shove, it reallys is everyone for theirself, otherwise comair would have equitable contract similar to delta's.

now for your "no one can beat " the one large national union theory......
ALPA can never strike any DOD flying, AND please explain how a national union got canned in its entirety when reagan fired all patco air traffic employees!

the socialist remark was about you being heavy handed with those that dont wear a similar pin on your lapel......what was left unsaid in all your posts was:
"you are either with us or against us"............now that was a way to build a coalition!

before i am seen in a wrong light, i am for us being there, and support our guys there......i just dont support the means by which the ends are trying to be accomplished......

your ultimate stance of a unified front is something that we will always strive for, just remember that in the process of swaying people to your cause, you must first show them that you are their friend and allay!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

If I was to be a member of any pilot labor organization it would have to be the IPA (Independent Pilots Group - UPS Pilot representation). They seem to be the most powerful union in aviation and from what I have heard they look after their charges most effectively and completely.

That's ONLY because they can afford to be. They represent branded employees, flying branded cargo. That is to say that every piece of cargo on the airplane has an airbill attached to it, and the name on that airbill matches the name on both the pilots cap AND paycheck.

When UPS started their "in-house" air ops, they relied exclusively on ACMI carriers, and none of them were worth a d*mn, IMHO. UPS didn't care, it was Alan T. McArtor, then-administrator of the FAA (and former D/O of FedEx) who made them bring their airline ops in-house. Every single UPS pilot, from the newest new-hire to the #1 guy on the seniority list, owes that guy a great big kiss on the lips every payday, because without him, they'd all be flying MD-11's for $125/hr instead of $216, and there would be no job security beyond their next landing, wherever that might be. Trust me, I was there...

Saying that working for one ACMI is better than working at another is like saying that working "Burger King" is better than working for "McDonalds." NONE of the ACMI carriers offers the pay, benefits, or stability of the "Big Two," nor can they. If and when the day ever comes when they do (or when the unions tell them they have to), watch out! The owners will move their capital out and start a new airline, taking only their "best" (read "hungriest, least likely to bee-yotch" pilots and starting them at new first-year pay rates.

Listening to some of you guys talk about how good "your" ACMI is compared to somebody else's is like listening to some 5-year-old on a Merry-Go-'Round bragging about how high "his" horsey is. You really don't get it...

Not sure what can kill an ACMI other than another ACMI... in the end, it's about providing airlines with excess capacity in peak demand moments so they don't have to have larger than necessary fleets.

OK, I'm calling bull$hit on that statement right here, right now! Gemini has been flying DHL cargo over the pond for years now. It's not "excess" cargo, it's DHL core business, and it's not happening only in "peak demand moments," but 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the last several years. Why? Because your guys will do it $100/hr cheaper than Astar will, and they're already doing it for less than pilots at ABX, UPS, or FedEx. I don't entirely blame the pilots for that, they're in a tough position too. But don't even start with that "we're only doing what other people can't, or won't" stuff. You're bottom-feeders, and like a street-corner whore, your income and job-security are a function of what you'll do, and how cheap you'll do it.

Welcome to the streets. You have a lot to learn about this business, and I would suggest you start by not drinking the Kool-Aid that your company is providing you...

 

[B737Dvr]

Listening to some of you guys talk about how good "your" ACMI is compared to somebody else's is like listening to some 5-year-old on a Merry-Go-'Round bragging about how high "his" horsey is. You really don't get it...


Whistlin Dan................THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

[HA25]

Welcome to the streets. You have a lot to learn about this business, and I would suggest you start by not drinking the Kool-Aid that your company is providing you...

Sounds like you have other issues with ACMI that have nothing at all to do with this thread. No problem, you're entitled to your view, and a lot of it is valid.

 

[HA25]

You know what... On second thoughts I take back all I've said.

ALL ACMI is crap bottom feeder.. World, Atlas, Gemini, all..

Unions are only for Godless commies...

Upstarts are all great, and they have no moral reason to pay anymore than anyone is willing to work for.

And You are all right, and I'm wrong... and frankly I'm also board of repeating myself.

 

[FearlessFreep]

V70T5:

Good for you! I love spirited conversation!

I am quite focused. It's just not in the same dog pack manner that you are. That's your choice it's just not mine. No insult is intended, it's just a statement of different personalities and methodologies.

Here let me help you: http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/A...39&Ta bid=181

Don't need your assistance, and certainly didn't ask for it. I would never follow an ALPA link, thanks for not renaming it.

As far as the conservative/liberal/socialistic stance, you are just echoing what the masses are currently saying, it's not if your a Democrat or Republican - it's the issues that matter. Now the difficult thing is getting a consensus on them.

V70T5, Good chatting with you. Not going to agree with you though, and nothing that you say will change that, period.

Bellerophon:

I cannot say that I know all the historical details of UPS acquisitions and how they were affected. I can tell you that there was more than just Challenge. Orion was another one and I believe that they had a union, Custom, Ryan and a myriad of other companies after flying UPS freight were also given the short shrift and some of them were union as well if I remember correctly. The thing is that if a union is not willing to treat all people with respect & dignity, let them be given the opportunity to have a job with decent renumeration, and not be bounced out because of the union's conceit of exclusivity has serious issues. Seniority list integration is another issue and is another quagmire entirely, but not being considered at all is pretty low and certainly does not incite support or good will from those being so discriminated. As far as being a pilot at any company that might be acquired by UPS, you can kiss your job goodbye - it's not a possibility, it's a fact. Otherwise for the most part from my understanding if you are a member of the IPA their support is unwavering. Good for them.

Whistlin' Dan:

Thanks for your insight. I have heard UPS horror stories as well. Nothing in the airline industry is all that great anymore. The days of wine & roses is long in the past, though at times looking from one side of the fence to the other it might not appear that way.

Good Luck To Us All!

 

[rotor&wing]

Every single UPS pilot, from the newest new-hire to the #1 guy on the seniority list, owes that guy a great big kiss on the lips every payday, because without him, they'd all be flying MD-11's for $125/hr instead of $216, and there would be no job security beyond their next landing, wherever that might be. Trust me, I was there..

I don't think so Dan.

 

[HeavyjetDC8]

ALPA have been a disaster for organized labor showing more interest in preserving a piece of Washington's political pie over the security and career advancement of their dues paying members. Their adroitness at dodging management sidewinders from 6 o'clock has demonstrably been less than stellar.

Remember Emery? It's astonishing that any current flight crew member could be so naive as to support this shower of self-serving reptiles. Union: an unqualified Yes; ALPA: a most definite No. There are much better options. Any union is only as strong as its membership wants it to be, which is why Centurion is probably a hopeless case.

 

[B737Dvr]

V70T5, please dont go, we like you!!!!!!!

lol, you are on one side of this convo against people with softer means, and you capitulate and "get tired of repeating yourself".......we win we win!!!!

just kidding man, dont go, because its due to you that this thread went from 1 page with a couple of responses to 4 with 40ish......you may not have won support, but you did draw interest in and now alot more people have come to read about how crappy this cargo airline is, and that is why i can appreciate what you try to advocate even if it is 1 foot forward then 2 feet back....

try 2ft forward and 1ft back and you wont have to repeat yourself more!!!!
lol!!!!!