Centurion Cargo

[Solo]

Anyone with Centurion Cargo? If so, How are they treating you?

 

[gringo]

Anyone with Centurion Cargo? If so, How are they treating you?

For a scumbag operation, not bad at all!

 

[gringo]

Ok, I wrote that first post at some ungodly hour in the morning- I can clarify a bit now that I'm awake.

Centurion Air Cargo can be a good place for you if you can pass this simple litmus test...

Back in high school, in your English class, did the textbook say English 102, 103 or anything similar? Or, did the letters "ESL" appear on the cover? If your book had "ESL" written on it, you'll do fine, even though it's a scumbag operation. Well. maybe not fine, but better than those of us who speak English natively.

Centurion had an opportunity to become a pretty good airline at one point- after they crashed an airplane in Bogota, they brought in a new management team, most of whom came over from Gemini. There were two problems with this; 1) they tried to make the airline into a real world-wide capable airline (instead of simply bouncing between Cali and Bogota all the time) and (this is important) they were gringos.

They actually had a decent amount of flights going across the pond, to Africa as well as Asia, but then someone decided that flying over the Atlantic was too scary or too difficult or they just didn't speak enough Spanish in Luxembourg or whatever, so they pretty much fouled that up. I'm embellishing a bit, but the bottom line is Operations couldn't handle the logistics of flying anywhere but South America. Lots of internal strife between Management and the Owner, so they were all pretty much fired, the Owner brought in a bunch of latinos and now they're pretty much flying back and fourth from Bogota and Cali, and not much else.

As far as treatment goes, and although this is my story, it applies to pretty much everyone in my class from July 2005. We spent I don't know, 3 weeks for Basic Indoc, 4 days to learn the systems, checkride (a lot of fun- my checkairman had this idea that after 4 days in systems, we would somehow know the airplane inside and out... fun checkride). Then I went home. For 2 more months, collecting "training pay", or $225 a week. You see, there were no training provisions in the contract that states, (unlike at Evergreen or just about anywhere else) that, if not complete with training for any reason within "X" amount of days, you go to your minimum guarantee. And then it gets better- Centurion dosen't consider you to be "fully qualified" until you finish IOE, so they'll fly you as many hours for free as possible before signing you off. 25 hours is the minimum- I spent almost 50 hours on IOE, going back and fourth between Bogota and MIA, waiting for a trip across the pond to finish IOE. I know a few who finished around 30 hours, but most in my class spent 40-50 hours in the air.

And then they furloughed us.

They let nearly 30 of us go January 1st; within 2 months, most have either come back, given the option to come back, or quit and went elsewhere. All but 3.

The interesting thing, I found out shortly afterwards, is that the Union voted whether to bring us 3 back, or to keep us on furlough. There was enough flying to go around for everyone, but that meant no overtime for the senior guys. Considering that Centurion offers a) no pension b) no 401k c) nothing at all in the way of security, it dosen't amaze me too much that these guys voted the way they did. If I was approaching 60 and working for a scumbag operation like that with no future in sight, my dreams of retiring comfortably shot all to h#ll, I'd consider it as well. But there's not too much else you can expect from a bunch of Eastern scabs...

But I digress. Anyway, we were voted out, and stayed thatway for a few more months. At this point, Centurion was losing Captains and FO's left and right, and the remaining flight crews were flying overtime and days off. The new DO and old CP came up with a plan to bring us back- upgrade 3 FO's to Captain, that would open up 3 more slots, and everyone would be happy.

Except the new CEO shot that down, saying that nobody's coming back until the new contract was signed. So there went that.

And as far as the Union goes, the Teamsters were the most useless sacks of s#it out there. Not even so much as a phone call or an email during this entire ordeal to let us know a) what's going on b) what we can do in the meanwhile or c) anything at all.

I have subsequently quit the airlines all together, and for that, I'm thankful; I'm not bitter at all about what happened (anymore, anyway). I got a chance to do what I thought I always wanted- fly internationally in a widebody, and I found out that, for me anyway, it's not all it's cracked up to be anymore. So for that, I'm happy with my experience with Centurion- I'm now spending much more time with my family and persuing a career that's far more lucrative than flying, and it didn't take me 20 years to figure it out. But I keep in touch with the few remaining classmates of mine who are still over there (only 3 or so form the original 28)- almost all of them are actively persuing other jobs or other careers altogether, so it sounds like things aren't getting any better over ther anytime soon.

As far as the furlough, it's still going on; the remaining 2 guys got a recall a month ago, but then that was cancelled, last I heard.

 

[CRACKHEAD]

Heavy flying

deleted

 

[Bellerophon]

I wonder if their pilots voted to cross our picket line.

Bel

 

[gringo]

I wonder if their pilots voted to cross our picket line.

Bel

I wouldn't put it past them...

Anyway, that reminds me of another amusing little anecdote I remembered on my drive back from Rockford today...

3 months into the furlough, I called our Teamster union rep, Daisy something, and I asked her what was the status on the furlogh and any word on the remaming 3 guys could excpect to get back to work.

Her reply? "What are you talking about? Furlough's over! Everyone came back!"

When I informed her of the error of her thinking, she replied to the tone of "huh, I didn't know there were still guys on the street..."

Gave me such a big warm fuzzy knowing that my union was up to speed on such an important topic. At least they were nice enough to take their grubby hands out of my wallet during the ordeal.

 

[heilhaavir]

If I remember correctly they were flying accross the pond below RVSM... You'd think that if the Gemeni guys were as smart as you say they were, they would have gotten the MNPS qual... Did they ever get it?

You say the last 2 guys' recall was cancelled. Are you talking about 2 FEs? If so, they told me they would only go back if they could upgrade to the right seat.

Centurion had an opportunity to become a pretty good airline at one point- after they crashed an airplane in Bogota, they brought in a new management team, most of whom came over from Gemini. There were two problems with this; 1) they tried to make the airline into a real world-wide capable airline (instead of simply bouncing between Cali and Bogota all the time) and (this is important) they were gringos.

They actually had a decent amount of flights going across the pond, to Africa as well as Asia, but then someone decided that flying over the Atlantic was too scary or too difficult or they just didn't speak enough Spanish in Luxembourg or whatever, so they pretty much fouled that up. I'm embellishing a bit, but the bottom line is Operations couldn't handle the logistics of flying anywhere but South America. Lots of internal strife between Management and the Owner, so they were all pretty much fired, the Owner brought in a bunch of latinos and now they're pretty much flying back and fourth from Bogota and Cali, and not much else.

 

[filejw]

And so why would there be a add on Climbed for pilots in all 3 seats

 

[HA25]

It's threads like this that make me go to bed every night thanking God that I got my break back into flying, and cargo with Gemini.

Apart from Gemini and Atlas, there really is only one other ACMI worth looking into, World, the rest of the are just a disaster.

 

[80for80]

It's threads like this that make me go to bed every night thanking God that I got my break back into flying, and cargo with Gemini.

Apart from Gemini and Atlas, there really is only one other ACMI worth looking into, World, the rest of the are just a disaster.

So, In other words you are saying..... My ACMI sucks less than your ACMI.

 

[HA25]

So, In other words you are saying..... My ACMI sucks less than your ACMI.

you work for World?

At this point in time, I think World is the best ACMI, Atlas, then Gemini... but I think Gemini has the most upside, and the new slate they've gotten and new capital backing is going to either lead to great things, or nothing!

Really though, apart from those 3, the rest are just bottom dwellers.

 

[HA25]

Get off your horse, all ACMI's are bottom dwellers. We pick up the flying that nobody else can or will do. If you're seeking to define the "lagacies" of the ACMI world, it's pointless. Are you still going to think Atlas and World are the cream of the crop when your ACMI contract is lost to one of them? What about it it's lost to Kalitta or Tradewinds? They suck?

It's a very cutthroat world with short term contracts and furloughs, etc. My ACMI has not had a pilot on furlough since early 2002. I don't think Gemini can make that claim, nor Atlas. Do I think my company is better than the rest? NO. We all suck in our own ways.

It's well and good you enjoy your job at Gemini and I wish you luck in your career there. But don't try to make us at the "bottom dwellers" of the ACMI world try and feel lesser than you because we're not owned by the Carlyle Group.

No, actually I won't get off.. that's just it, the problem with ACMI is that people try to lump them all into one group.. there is a world of difference between how an ALPA contract operation like Gemini, Atlas, etc operate and treat their pilots than the type of crap that goes on at the likes of Centurion.

I've got close friends at Kalitta and they would trade with me in a heart beat, why? the quality of the operation... Gemini has the experience in ACMI that few others have, the newer equipment that many don't have, and most importantly the pilot group which is united under ALPA.

So no, I will not lump Gemini in with Centurion.. as much as you'd like to hear me do that.

 

[80for80]

you work for World?

At this point in time, I think World is the best ACMI, Atlas, then Gemini... but I think Gemini has the most upside, and the new slate they've gotten and new capital backing is going to either lead to great things, or nothing!

Really though, apart from those 3, the rest are just bottom dwellers.

No, I work for an ACMI killer.

 

[HA25]

No, I work for an ACMI killer.

Not sure what can kill an ACMI other than another ACMI... in the end, it's about providing airlines with excess capacity in peak demand moments so they don't have to have larger than necessary fleets. You do understand that, right?

 

[HA25]

First off pal... you never once tell me who you work for.

Secondly, it's not all about ALPA as but yes, ALPA is the best union to represent pilots, not some damn trucker union! World has been around a while and is a tight pilot group so Teamsters has done well for them but just read our friends post above and how well Teamsters has done for Centurion.

it is about union vs non-union. There are a lot of non-union ACMI that are dragging us down with them to the bottom in terms of pilot work rules and pay.. Moreover, ABEX and Astar are not an ACMI, they are in a whole different league and I can only hope Gemini gets to be as big. Kitty Hawk is also an ALPA carrier with pretty darn good work rules and pay.. so don't YOU lump them all together either, just so you can try to paint me into a corner.

But the likes of Cargo 360, Express.net, Tradewinds, Murray, and other non-union bottom dwellers are the problem.. between them, and the idiots that think the Teamsters are going to save them from corporate greed, it's makes it pretty damn hard for an pilot group that is doing things the right way to compete.. In the end, the mediator only needs to point at one of those bottom dwellers and say.. "well, Centurion does that.."

No, you need to learn a thing or two about the business.. I may be new to ACMI, but I'm not new to flying and I'm not new to unions..

Now, tell us what this company you fly for is that we can all hold it up as a role model? It better be Atlas or Polar, or you're wasting my time.

 

[cbeyw]

NOTAM I

V70T5 does not represent Gemini Air Cargo pilots feelings toward other ACMI. So please understand he is new and is all happy about flying an MD-11. Give him some time to understand that we are all in the same boat.

 

[HA25]

NOTAM I

V70T5 does not represent Gemini Air Cargo pilots feelings toward other ACMI. So please understand he is new and is all happy about flying an MD-11. Give him some time to understand that we are all in the same boat.

ouch..

 

[cbeyw]

V70T5 Welcome to Gemini. Make the best out of it and learn as much as you can. In the airline business you might be on top for a few years (not meaning that Gemini is the top) but don't forget that at some point you'll be at the bottom. Once again welcome to Gemini.

 

[HA25]

I wish you the best of luck, and I hope you do vote ALPA in ... I'm a 8 year member, and I am a believer in One pilot union. Sorry if my passion for my profession got the better of me.. you can't take this personally as I don't know you.. for me it's all about raising the bar.. YOU CAN'T DO THAT WHEN PEOPLE ARE RACING YOU TO THE BOTTOM.

Remember those last words.. I'm done here.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

#1 Bottom Feeder

I'm not into putting down one carrier over another, but I like to consider us(Atlas) as the Premier Bottom Feeder:laugh:

Now getting back to this thread, I have a friend who was hired at Centurion, and was jerked around on his IOE and then furloughed shortly after that, he had nothing good to say about CENTURION!!!!!

 

[80for80]

Well you should be approcahing this completely differently if you're going to tout being ALPA. You should not hold up a fence and say "If you're on the ALPA side, you're cool, if not, piss off" Because that is not the view of ALPA National nor the President's Comittee for Cargo.

They embrace the non-ALPA carriers. And are trying to diplomatically show the benefits of ALPA membership and getting ALL cargo carriers on the same page, ALPA or not. And in fact, my ACMI is in the midst of an ALPA drive. Will that make my ACMI then OK by your standards? What about World? They're a Teamster shop.....

When you choose to drive a wedge between different operations, you show that you obviously have not spent much time in the night-freight ACMI world. Because in the end, we're all in the same boat. Like it or not. At some point you will run out of newhire koolaid and see things. Just wait until you break hard one day and Kalitta swoops in, picks up your freight and flys away. That's how it works, as long as the freight gets there, the customer does not care. We all do the same work.



Connie had more ACMI experience than Gemini does now when they were formed. But when you work for a Kalitta, you know what you're getting into. Or else you are only guilty of not doing your homework.

As far as the other ACMI's, there are good and bad benefits to all. Why Gemini may be great for you, may be a turn off to others.



No, I don't need to hear you lump yourself in with Centurion, Arrow, Amerijet, Tradewinds, Kalitta, Kitty Hawk, Capital, ATI, Murray, Express.Net, CAT, AStar, ABX, Cargo 360, Focus, or any other ACMI I left out. I'm perfectly fine knowing that I'm "inferior" to Gemini. I don't want you to "come down to our level" and damage your apparent fragile ego.

Scope?

 

[gringo]

Now getting back to this thread, I have a friend who was hired at Centurion, and was jerked around on his IOE and then furloughed shortly after that, he had nothing good to say about CENTURION!!!!!

You just described the entire class of July 2005, my friend. Heck, that might even be me you're referring to!

 

[B737Dvr]

Good job isolating yourself from another Gemini pilot!

First off pal... you never once tell me who you work for.

Secondly, it's not all about ALPA as but yes, ALPA is the best union to represent pilots, not some dang trucker union! World has been around a while and is a tight pilot group so Teamsters has done well for them but just read our friends post above and how well Teamsters has done for Centurion.

it is about union vs non-union. There are a lot of non-union ACMI that are dragging us down with them to the bottom in terms of pilot work rules and pay.. Moreover, ABEX and Astar are not an ACMI, they are in a whole different league and I can only hope Gemini gets to be as big. Kitty Hawk is also an ALPA carrier with pretty darn good work rules and pay.. so don't YOU lump them all together either, just so you can try to paint me into a corner.

But the likes of Cargo 360, Express.net, Tradewinds, Murray, and other non-union bottom dwellers are the problem.. between them, and the idiots that think the Teamsters are going to save them from corporate greed, it's makes it pretty dang hard for an pilot group that is doing things the right way to compete.. In the end, the mediator only needs to point at one of those bottom dwellers and say.. "well, Centurion does that.."

No, you need to learn a thing or two about the business.. I may be new to ACMI, but I'm not new to flying and I'm not new to unions..

Now, tell us what this company you fly for is that we can all hold it up as a role model? It better be Atlas or Polar, or you're wasting my time.

V70t5.....the inability to see beyond your own nose and people like you are what is wrong with the airline industry or any other industry for that matter. Like it or not compared to a UPS or FEDEX Gemini is a bottom feeder with old airplanes, sub-par work rules, and you V70t5 are a bottom feeder pilot keeping their bar low and preventing them from earning even more money, so why dont you just hang your head in shame, admit that you are a loser, get some dignity and respect for yourself and your profession and do us pilots all a favor and quit your company, (that will show them that they cant treat you like that!) and go sell some power tools at home depot and dont come back to the industry until Gemini and all other "bottom feeders" are on the same level as a UPS and Fedex!!!!!!!!!

Now, how do you like that? Does it make you feel good? Does it help you out any to be thumbed down like that by a "better and higher paid pilot"?
now before your lips hit that pilot's ass and before you beg and grovel for a job at either place, realize one thing....this is what you are doing to every company that you lambasted. another crtical thing is that no pilot who works at either place that operates with any respect and dignity would ever have such a cavalier attitude towards others and would never be on any high horse like yours!

Ouch!!!! that was your response to a fellow Gemini pilot who singled you out as a single lone "voice"? You did a great job at building comraderie there buddy, i bet you are a crew favorite!!!

Now the above mentioned tirade comparing fedex and ups to gemini was for illustrative purposes to our dear naive and green ACMI big mouth! These kind of people dont really get it until they are put in the shoes of those that they aim to hurt, divide, or alienate.

You went on a tirade before on who went into BK after 9-11, you forgot one company that didnt......Continental. That shows that you can have a company that can weather the storm good enough to not go chap11, and btw do you know that they are still funding their pilot's pensions plans?

You tout world as one of the best ACMI's out there.......why dont you talk to one of the crew members that got stranded out in an african country during the strike as a result of management retaliation when they parked the plane and refused those poor guys hotel rooms and left them to fend for theirselves in a place that they normally have armed security! Can it be possible that there are one or two pilots that dont think highly of World, and if World is such a cut above the rest how and why would anything like that ever have happened??? Now for the record, i am not saying anything about world other than stating something happened, i actually think they are a good company, but just like the rest.....with their ups and downs.....

If ALPA is so good why do they have multiple litigation cases pending from all sorts of pilots from all sorts of airlines. Why dont you ask a PANAM (original) pilot what he/she thinks of ALPA? Again, they are the biggest union and also have their pros and cons.....

In the ACMI world, your ass will break down one day and watch as a "lesser carrier" comes in and takes your freight while you sit with your thumb in your arse waiting for parts.....If a carrier with alpa is so good, then please tell me how well the pilots at EMERY did and where are they now? Most likely at other places continuing their carriers, feeding their families, paying their bills and trying to make the best of it whether it is a UPS, FEDEX, or a little lowly start up. You see, back when world started, or when Atlas started, i doubt that any guy at UPS, or FEDEX came down on them hard like you do.

Back in the 70's when Herb barely kept SWA alive and when they were hiking fences and stealing parts off of other planes to stay alive...you would have been right there shaking your finger at the low lives that worked there,....because to you we or anyone that was not mentioned in your heavenly trifecta are all lowlives,.....but today SWA rules the skys and gives everyone a run for their money.


Do us all a favor, show 99% more humility and 1% more judgement and you might learn a thing or two about the ACMI world, the airline world, about conducting yourself with respect and dignity and what it means to united as consumate professionals regardless of what wings you wear....

sincerely,
a "family feeder, career pilot and happy professional who will gladly take you into his cockpit so that you can hop a ride to work, even if you think i am trash and a drag on your aspirations to dominate the world and earn millions"

 

[HA25]

sincerely,
a "family feeder, career pilot and happy professional who will gladly take you into his cockpit so that you can hop a ride to work, even if you think i am trash and a drag on your aspirations to dominate the world and earn millions"

Shakes head... takes deep breath..

I don't even know where to start.. I'm at a loss for words.

The best I can do is refer you to this thread I started. I think it's you and some of the others in this thread that are missing the point entirely. There is nothing more to say here but I'm tired of the back and forth and defending points that are being glossed over because all you want to see is a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and your mind is made up.


But you're welcome to join my thread on this race to the bottom.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1210630#post1210630

 

[dojetdriver]

I don't work for an ACMI, although there are a few I would like to.

But a friend of mine that flys for one summed them up this way;

In the end, they are all pretty much the same as far as management goes. It's all the same clowns running the circus, just a different tent.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

You just described the entire class of July 2005, my friend. Heck, that might even be me you're referring to!

Gringo,

Yeah my buddy was on furlough from AA, you might know who this is. He was so pissed at the management and the whole training dept., for the show they ran there, that he told them to go f@#k themselves, and he quit before he was recalled from furlough. He's now happy flying for Omni, and says it's a much better outfit than Centurion.

 

[Bellerophon]

Just a little tweaking to set the record straight.

You tout world as one of the best ACMI's out there.......why dont you talk to one of the crew members that got stranded out in an african country during the strike as a result of management retaliation when they parked the plane and refused those poor guys hotel rooms and left them to fend for theirselves in a place that they normally have armed security! Can it be possible that there are one or two pilots that dont think highly of World, and if World is such a cut above the rest how and why would anything like that ever have happened??? Now for the record, i am not saying anything about world other than stating something happened, i actually think they are a good company, but just like the rest.....with their ups and downs.....

Those pilots were out of Angola within hours. Three World pilots back in the USA bought them tickets on their own credit cards to get them out. The three pilots were reimbursed later for those tickets by the IBT. The IBT was then reimbursed by World Airways.

When you go on strike,crewmember stranding tactic is normal with every airline. What happened to the four World pilots during the stike is nothing compared to what happened to the Cathay Pacific pilots during their strike.

You see, back when world started, or when Atlas started, i doubt that any guy at UPS, or FEDEX came down on them hard like you do.

World started operations in 1948.

Bel

 

[HA25]

Gemini also had crew get stranded in africa.. anecdote doesn't make a general rule. The fact remains that "Upstarts" with their abusive workrules, poor pay, and various expense dumping in terms of hiring and training costs are a bane on the industry. Whether we're talking ACMI, or Pax 121.. bringing down the bar is not good for anyone... just because you're an upstart, doesn't make it right (Certainly not from our perspective as pilots, it shouldn't).

ALPA is important to our future and a unified policy of having ALPA on every property should be our goal, otherwise the divid and conquer tactics of managers will take full advantage of all of us, and the hard fought improvements being won will slowly erode away.

I wish World was ALPA, but in their case, as an older and well established company, the Teamsters (like with NetJets, and Airtran) are doing well for them.. Maybe the Teamsters are learning how to represent pilots.. but I still think we'd benefit even more under one union.

BTW.. is anyone who's quick to jump on me even bothering to read the other posts about the treatment of the employees at Centurion? Or is it more fun to beat up on the union snob?

 

[B737Dvr]

Just a little tweaking to set the record straight.

You tout world as one of the best ACMI's out there.......why dont you talk to one of the crew members that got stranded out in an african country during the strike as a result of management retaliation when they parked the plane and refused those poor guys hotel rooms and left them to fend for theirselves in a place that they normally have armed security! Can it be possible that there are one or two pilots that dont think highly of World, and if World is such a cut above the rest how and why would anything like that ever have happened??? Now for the record, i am not saying anything about world other than stating something happened, i actually think they are a good company, but just like the rest.....with their ups and downs.....

Those pilots were out of Angola within hours. Three World pilots back in the USA bought them tickets on their own credit cards to get them out. The three pilots were reimbursed later for those tickets by the IBT. The IBT was then reimbursed by World Airways.

When you go on strike,crewmember stranding tactic is normal with every airline. What happened to the four World pilots during the stike is nothing compared to what happened to the Cathay Pacific pilots during their strike.

You see, back when world started, or when Atlas started, i doubt that any guy at UPS, or FEDEX came down on them hard like you do.

World started operations in 1948.

Bel



thanks bel, i know that what happened at world happens at other places and yes it is nothing compared to what happened to the 49ers out in CX, but i just wrote that to illustrate a point, that no place is without its own fault to contrast V70T5's stance of holier than thou attitude.


after reading the last, i feel silly, because i dont really know the start year on either ups or fedex......but i dont think its as long as world's!!!


thanks for the info and im glad that the IBT got the world guys out asap.
being stranded in angola really sucks more than being stuck in de moines

 

[B737Dvr]

Gemini also had crew get stranded in africa.. anecdote doesn't make a general rule. The fact remains that "Upstarts" with their abusive workrules, poor pay, and various expense dumping in terms of hiring and training costs are a bane on the industry. Whether we're talking ACMI, or Pax 121.. bringing down the bar is not good for anyone... just because you're an upstart, doesn't make it right (Certainly not from our perspective as pilots, it shouldn't).

ALPA is important to our future and a unified policy of having ALPA on every property should be our goal, otherwise the divid and conquer tactics of managers will take full advantage of all of us, and the hard fought improvements being won will slowly erode away.

I wish World was ALPA, but in their case, as an older and well established company, the Teamsters (like with NetJets, and Airtran) are doing well for them.. Maybe the Teamsters are learning how to represent pilots.. but I still think we'd benefit even more under one union.

BTW.. is anyone who's quick to jump on me even bothering to read the other posts about the treatment of the employees at Centurion? Or is it more fun to beat up on the union snob?[/quote]


Buddy, we all know about that, it(word) gets out. difference is that no one is going to add insult to injury by lambasting those poor guys for even going there in the first place. there is nothing that needs to be said, we all know its bull********************....period.

and yes, it is more fun to jump on (your words) union snob. watch what you say, lest another ALPA guy gets on here and says:

V70T5 does not represent the views of ALPA and will soon learn how to engage others and play nice. he will be assimilated!
lmao!