Centurion Cargo

[80for80]

Well you should be approcahing this completely differently if you're going to tout being ALPA. You should not hold up a fence and say "If you're on the ALPA side, you're cool, if not, piss off" Because that is not the view of ALPA National nor the President's Comittee for Cargo.

They embrace the non-ALPA carriers. And are trying to diplomatically show the benefits of ALPA membership and getting ALL cargo carriers on the same page, ALPA or not. And in fact, my ACMI is in the midst of an ALPA drive. Will that make my ACMI then OK by your standards? What about World? They're a Teamster shop.....

When you choose to drive a wedge between different operations, you show that you obviously have not spent much time in the night-freight ACMI world. Because in the end, we're all in the same boat. Like it or not. At some point you will run out of newhire koolaid and see things. Just wait until you break hard one day and Kalitta swoops in, picks up your freight and flys away. That's how it works, as long as the freight gets there, the customer does not care. We all do the same work.



Connie had more ACMI experience than Gemini does now when they were formed. But when you work for a Kalitta, you know what you're getting into. Or else you are only guilty of not doing your homework.

As far as the other ACMI's, there are good and bad benefits to all. Why Gemini may be great for you, may be a turn off to others.



No, I don't need to hear you lump yourself in with Centurion, Arrow, Amerijet, Tradewinds, Kalitta, Kitty Hawk, Capital, ATI, Murray, Express.Net, CAT, AStar, ABX, Cargo 360, Focus, or any other ACMI I left out. I'm perfectly fine knowing that I'm "inferior" to Gemini. I don't want you to "come down to our level" and damage your apparent fragile ego.

Scope?

 

[gringo]

Now getting back to this thread, I have a friend who was hired at Centurion, and was jerked around on his IOE and then furloughed shortly after that, he had nothing good to say about CENTURION!!!!!

You just described the entire class of July 2005, my friend. Heck, that might even be me you're referring to!

 

[B737Dvr]

Good job isolating yourself from another Gemini pilot!

First off pal... you never once tell me who you work for.

Secondly, it's not all about ALPA as but yes, ALPA is the best union to represent pilots, not some dang trucker union! World has been around a while and is a tight pilot group so Teamsters has done well for them but just read our friends post above and how well Teamsters has done for Centurion.

it is about union vs non-union. There are a lot of non-union ACMI that are dragging us down with them to the bottom in terms of pilot work rules and pay.. Moreover, ABEX and Astar are not an ACMI, they are in a whole different league and I can only hope Gemini gets to be as big. Kitty Hawk is also an ALPA carrier with pretty darn good work rules and pay.. so don't YOU lump them all together either, just so you can try to paint me into a corner.

But the likes of Cargo 360, Express.net, Tradewinds, Murray, and other non-union bottom dwellers are the problem.. between them, and the idiots that think the Teamsters are going to save them from corporate greed, it's makes it pretty dang hard for an pilot group that is doing things the right way to compete.. In the end, the mediator only needs to point at one of those bottom dwellers and say.. "well, Centurion does that.."

No, you need to learn a thing or two about the business.. I may be new to ACMI, but I'm not new to flying and I'm not new to unions..

Now, tell us what this company you fly for is that we can all hold it up as a role model? It better be Atlas or Polar, or you're wasting my time.

V70t5.....the inability to see beyond your own nose and people like you are what is wrong with the airline industry or any other industry for that matter. Like it or not compared to a UPS or FEDEX Gemini is a bottom feeder with old airplanes, sub-par work rules, and you V70t5 are a bottom feeder pilot keeping their bar low and preventing them from earning even more money, so why dont you just hang your head in shame, admit that you are a loser, get some dignity and respect for yourself and your profession and do us pilots all a favor and quit your company, (that will show them that they cant treat you like that!) and go sell some power tools at home depot and dont come back to the industry until Gemini and all other "bottom feeders" are on the same level as a UPS and Fedex!!!!!!!!!

Now, how do you like that? Does it make you feel good? Does it help you out any to be thumbed down like that by a "better and higher paid pilot"?
now before your lips hit that pilot's ass and before you beg and grovel for a job at either place, realize one thing....this is what you are doing to every company that you lambasted. another crtical thing is that no pilot who works at either place that operates with any respect and dignity would ever have such a cavalier attitude towards others and would never be on any high horse like yours!

Ouch!!!! that was your response to a fellow Gemini pilot who singled you out as a single lone "voice"? You did a great job at building comraderie there buddy, i bet you are a crew favorite!!!

Now the above mentioned tirade comparing fedex and ups to gemini was for illustrative purposes to our dear naive and green ACMI big mouth! These kind of people dont really get it until they are put in the shoes of those that they aim to hurt, divide, or alienate.

You went on a tirade before on who went into BK after 9-11, you forgot one company that didnt......Continental. That shows that you can have a company that can weather the storm good enough to not go chap11, and btw do you know that they are still funding their pilot's pensions plans?

You tout world as one of the best ACMI's out there.......why dont you talk to one of the crew members that got stranded out in an african country during the strike as a result of management retaliation when they parked the plane and refused those poor guys hotel rooms and left them to fend for theirselves in a place that they normally have armed security! Can it be possible that there are one or two pilots that dont think highly of World, and if World is such a cut above the rest how and why would anything like that ever have happened??? Now for the record, i am not saying anything about world other than stating something happened, i actually think they are a good company, but just like the rest.....with their ups and downs.....

If ALPA is so good why do they have multiple litigation cases pending from all sorts of pilots from all sorts of airlines. Why dont you ask a PANAM (original) pilot what he/she thinks of ALPA? Again, they are the biggest union and also have their pros and cons.....

In the ACMI world, your ass will break down one day and watch as a "lesser carrier" comes in and takes your freight while you sit with your thumb in your arse waiting for parts.....If a carrier with alpa is so good, then please tell me how well the pilots at EMERY did and where are they now? Most likely at other places continuing their carriers, feeding their families, paying their bills and trying to make the best of it whether it is a UPS, FEDEX, or a little lowly start up. You see, back when world started, or when Atlas started, i doubt that any guy at UPS, or FEDEX came down on them hard like you do.

Back in the 70's when Herb barely kept SWA alive and when they were hiking fences and stealing parts off of other planes to stay alive...you would have been right there shaking your finger at the low lives that worked there,....because to you we or anyone that was not mentioned in your heavenly trifecta are all lowlives,.....but today SWA rules the skys and gives everyone a run for their money.


Do us all a favor, show 99% more humility and 1% more judgement and you might learn a thing or two about the ACMI world, the airline world, about conducting yourself with respect and dignity and what it means to united as consumate professionals regardless of what wings you wear....

sincerely,
a "family feeder, career pilot and happy professional who will gladly take you into his cockpit so that you can hop a ride to work, even if you think i am trash and a drag on your aspirations to dominate the world and earn millions"

 

[HA25]

sincerely,
a "family feeder, career pilot and happy professional who will gladly take you into his cockpit so that you can hop a ride to work, even if you think i am trash and a drag on your aspirations to dominate the world and earn millions"

Shakes head... takes deep breath..

I don't even know where to start.. I'm at a loss for words.

The best I can do is refer you to this thread I started. I think it's you and some of the others in this thread that are missing the point entirely. There is nothing more to say here but I'm tired of the back and forth and defending points that are being glossed over because all you want to see is a guy with a chip on his shoulder, and your mind is made up.


But you're welcome to join my thread on this race to the bottom.

http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?p=1210630#post1210630

 

[dojetdriver]

I don't work for an ACMI, although there are a few I would like to.

But a friend of mine that flys for one summed them up this way;

In the end, they are all pretty much the same as far as management goes. It's all the same clowns running the circus, just a different tent.

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

You just described the entire class of July 2005, my friend. Heck, that might even be me you're referring to!

Gringo,

Yeah my buddy was on furlough from AA, you might know who this is. He was so pissed at the management and the whole training dept., for the show they ran there, that he told them to go f@#k themselves, and he quit before he was recalled from furlough. He's now happy flying for Omni, and says it's a much better outfit than Centurion.

 

[Bellerophon]

Just a little tweaking to set the record straight.

You tout world as one of the best ACMI's out there.......why dont you talk to one of the crew members that got stranded out in an african country during the strike as a result of management retaliation when they parked the plane and refused those poor guys hotel rooms and left them to fend for theirselves in a place that they normally have armed security! Can it be possible that there are one or two pilots that dont think highly of World, and if World is such a cut above the rest how and why would anything like that ever have happened??? Now for the record, i am not saying anything about world other than stating something happened, i actually think they are a good company, but just like the rest.....with their ups and downs.....

Those pilots were out of Angola within hours. Three World pilots back in the USA bought them tickets on their own credit cards to get them out. The three pilots were reimbursed later for those tickets by the IBT. The IBT was then reimbursed by World Airways.

When you go on strike,crewmember stranding tactic is normal with every airline. What happened to the four World pilots during the stike is nothing compared to what happened to the Cathay Pacific pilots during their strike.

You see, back when world started, or when Atlas started, i doubt that any guy at UPS, or FEDEX came down on them hard like you do.

World started operations in 1948.

Bel

 

[HA25]

Gemini also had crew get stranded in africa.. anecdote doesn't make a general rule. The fact remains that "Upstarts" with their abusive workrules, poor pay, and various expense dumping in terms of hiring and training costs are a bane on the industry. Whether we're talking ACMI, or Pax 121.. bringing down the bar is not good for anyone... just because you're an upstart, doesn't make it right (Certainly not from our perspective as pilots, it shouldn't).

ALPA is important to our future and a unified policy of having ALPA on every property should be our goal, otherwise the divid and conquer tactics of managers will take full advantage of all of us, and the hard fought improvements being won will slowly erode away.

I wish World was ALPA, but in their case, as an older and well established company, the Teamsters (like with NetJets, and Airtran) are doing well for them.. Maybe the Teamsters are learning how to represent pilots.. but I still think we'd benefit even more under one union.

BTW.. is anyone who's quick to jump on me even bothering to read the other posts about the treatment of the employees at Centurion? Or is it more fun to beat up on the union snob?

 

[B737Dvr]

Just a little tweaking to set the record straight.

You tout world as one of the best ACMI's out there.......why dont you talk to one of the crew members that got stranded out in an african country during the strike as a result of management retaliation when they parked the plane and refused those poor guys hotel rooms and left them to fend for theirselves in a place that they normally have armed security! Can it be possible that there are one or two pilots that dont think highly of World, and if World is such a cut above the rest how and why would anything like that ever have happened??? Now for the record, i am not saying anything about world other than stating something happened, i actually think they are a good company, but just like the rest.....with their ups and downs.....

Those pilots were out of Angola within hours. Three World pilots back in the USA bought them tickets on their own credit cards to get them out. The three pilots were reimbursed later for those tickets by the IBT. The IBT was then reimbursed by World Airways.

When you go on strike,crewmember stranding tactic is normal with every airline. What happened to the four World pilots during the stike is nothing compared to what happened to the Cathay Pacific pilots during their strike.

You see, back when world started, or when Atlas started, i doubt that any guy at UPS, or FEDEX came down on them hard like you do.

World started operations in 1948.

Bel



thanks bel, i know that what happened at world happens at other places and yes it is nothing compared to what happened to the 49ers out in CX, but i just wrote that to illustrate a point, that no place is without its own fault to contrast V70T5's stance of holier than thou attitude.


after reading the last, i feel silly, because i dont really know the start year on either ups or fedex......but i dont think its as long as world's!!!


thanks for the info and im glad that the IBT got the world guys out asap.
being stranded in angola really sucks more than being stuck in de moines

 

[B737Dvr]

Gemini also had crew get stranded in africa.. anecdote doesn't make a general rule. The fact remains that "Upstarts" with their abusive workrules, poor pay, and various expense dumping in terms of hiring and training costs are a bane on the industry. Whether we're talking ACMI, or Pax 121.. bringing down the bar is not good for anyone... just because you're an upstart, doesn't make it right (Certainly not from our perspective as pilots, it shouldn't).

ALPA is important to our future and a unified policy of having ALPA on every property should be our goal, otherwise the divid and conquer tactics of managers will take full advantage of all of us, and the hard fought improvements being won will slowly erode away.

I wish World was ALPA, but in their case, as an older and well established company, the Teamsters (like with NetJets, and Airtran) are doing well for them.. Maybe the Teamsters are learning how to represent pilots.. but I still think we'd benefit even more under one union.

BTW.. is anyone who's quick to jump on me even bothering to read the other posts about the treatment of the employees at Centurion? Or is it more fun to beat up on the union snob?[/quote]


Buddy, we all know about that, it(word) gets out. difference is that no one is going to add insult to injury by lambasting those poor guys for even going there in the first place. there is nothing that needs to be said, we all know its bull********************....period.

and yes, it is more fun to jump on (your words) union snob. watch what you say, lest another ALPA guy gets on here and says:

V70T5 does not represent the views of ALPA and will soon learn how to engage others and play nice. he will be assimilated!
lmao!

 

[gringo]

If I remember correctly they were flying accross the pond below RVSM... You'd think that if the Gemeni guys were as smart as you say they were, they would have gotten the MNPS qual... Did they ever get it?

You say the last 2 guys' recall was cancelled. Are you talking about 2 FEs? If so, they told me they would only go back if they could upgrade to the right seat.

There could have been some FE's that I'm not aware of on furlough, but the 2 I was referring to were FO's at the bottom of the list. There were 2 others that passed over their original recall; one was an FO, the other one I'm not sure of. Perhaps he was an FE.

As far as MNPS, I vaguely remember the new management working on geting the quals, equipment and certification. They were also working on many other projects that would bring Centurion up to speed capability wise with Gemini and the other "better" ACMI's, but (this isn't verified, but I heard it from more than one good source) they ran out of money. I believe I heard that the owner misrepresented the capital that the new guys had to work with, and was in fact siphoning off monies to other projects, whether it be Cielos, his new airline in Brazil (MTA I think it was) or whatever- the bottom line is that the money that Bill Stockbridge and company were supposed to work with evaporated. Again, there was no way for any of this to be verified easily- just stuff I've read on the bathroom walls...

 

[FearlessFreep]

What you all don't realize is that we are all one regulatory step away from losing our jobs to Juan, Jorge & Jesus (no insult intended to Hispanic Americans).

The thing is now governmental law says that U.S. Citizens ONLY operate 121 Air Carrier aircraft. With the current administration's attitude and prevalent actions taken in outsourcing all our jobs we are on a precarious and slippery slope. One inconvenient rider on a bigger bill passed through Congress will send us on our way to the burgeoning unemployment line. Seeing how the government is so willing to outsource other security sensitive operations to countries hostile to our lifestyle, having "un-Americans" flying our aircraft will not even ruffle the feathers of TSA. I am sure that they will chase down and pursue some other ridiculous crumb that can be construed as being far more important than just foreign pilots which are already operating in our country.

As far as "One Union - ALPA!" battle cry, what about the other non-ALPA unions? I would have to say that you will have a hard time convincing the membership roles of the SWA, AA, & UPS pilot organizations to jump on the ALPA bandwagon. Currently it seems that ALPA has not done too much to help pilot's plight. Most of what they are doing now is to comply with concessions that "big bad management" has been telling them to take with the threat of shutting down the affected airline.

What ALPA has not done is work effectively with corporate management in getting fair & equitable wages for the work performed and simultaneously fostering an environment of mutual respect & cooperation between management/ownership and labor. ALPA's tactics have always been to strong arm management into astronomical wages that inevitably are given up at a later date. It is ALPA that is more apt to drive a wedge between management and labor more than any independent pilot group and their associated company management.

All of this is not to say that there will never be strife between management and labor. It just seems that the installation of ALPA usually is akin to putting out fire with gasoline.

Another thing, ALPA NEVER supports the little guy. I watched Emery get flushed down the toilet as ALPA pursued Fedex. Emery pilots were just chattel to the bigger and more well compensated pilot roles of Fedex. Just look how ALPA sent Comair down the river. How can you call the representation of Delta Airlines & Comair as fair & equitable? It clearly is a conflict of interest. Seeing how a Delta pilot (even after the cuts) makes more in three months than a Comair pilot does in a year, who do you think is going to get that fat Georgia Peach? I can assure you it's not the little guy.

ALPA is a business and as such should be seen just as another extension of the management structure. It's all about how much can be extracted in membership dues. The bigger the salary, the bigger the take. Kind of makes you feel like a stooge for another "management" group doesn't it?

If I was to be a member of any pilot labor organization it would have to be the IPA (Independent Pilots Group - UPS Pilot representation). They seem to be the most powerful union in aviation and from what I have heard they look after their charges most effectively and completely. Just don't work for an airline that gets purchased by UPS because you will NOT BE ASSIMILATED! That appears to be from the outside the biggest negative to this group.

Good Luck To Us All!

 

[HA25]

I agree ALPA is flawed.. for me it's the lesser of evils. The problem with in-house unions, as APA found out is they have a lot less political muscle than a national union with a large membership. In the end, this is all waged and played out in the halls of congress. When an IPA or APA goes on strike, a president (democrat or republican) is far more likely to bust that strike (as Clinton did to APA) than if it were part of a much larger lobby group.

I don't know what the answer is... but I know what it's not: Non-Union upstarts.. They're all just taking advantage of a bad situation and it makes me sick.

 

[FearlessFreep]

I don't know what the answer is... but I know what it's not: Non-Union upstarts

Just about all airlines/corporations started non-union. The development of unions was in response to Orwellian corporate management, with the proverbial boot heel of Big Brother on the necks of labor.

If company management/ownership is not draconian in handling labor there would be no need for unions. The government has oscillated with the support of management and labor, this is evidenced by child labor laws that were put in place, and the current manner that outsourcing is promoted and justified.

The answer is not what you suggest either, and it certainly is not ALPA.

V70T5, your just too much of a socialist for me and admittedly you seem a bit pink with your labor/union extremism. Workers Unite! Down with the Bougeoisie!

I am too much of an individualist for this kind of rhetoric.

I am all for being well compensated for the work that I perform. I can certainly take umbrage to seeing how people get mistreated in the work environment. People make their own personal decisions and/or concessions in what they have to do to make a way in the world. That is just the way it is here in the good ol' US of A, I don't see that changing in the immediate future.

Most of what has been addressed here are pay/lifestyle issues and ALPA's effect on these. What has not been discussed is the dismal support of ALPA members on other job related issues. I have talked to a number of good people that have been sent down the river by the unions with not even the slightest shred of support.

 

[HA25]

V70T5, your just too much of a socialist for me and admittedly you seem a bit pink with your labor/union extremism. Workers Unite! Down with the Bougeoisie

be careful with labels like that.

I consider myself to be quite conservative, but yes I'm also more socialistic than I used to be. You can't trust the free market to give workers what they deserve.. they have to negotiate for it with a union at their back. But political labels are lame... after all, how do you categorize someone like me? I'm hard right wing Roman Catholic, pro-life, anti-feminst, anti-flag burning, bla bla bla, etc..

Yet, I do care a about the plight of the working stiff. Liberal? Conservative? Socialist, communist (God no!)?

Forget the labels and get focused..

Here let me help you: http://www.alpa.org/DesktopModules/...tsView.aspx?itemid=446&ModuleId=939&Tabid=181

 

[Bellerophon]

Just don't work for an airline that gets purchased by UPS because you will NOT BE ASSIMILATED! That appears to be from the outside the biggest negative to this group.

We differ in opinion. The Challenge Air pilots had not signed their first contract. Therefore, had no merger rights. So I would say, don't get purchased by any airline until you have a first contract. Now that still may not save you, but at least you get your day in court. We (World) tried to tell that to NAA as factor to merge along side the wipsaw possibilities. NAA declined. Now our holding company is now shopping around to either buy, sell or merge (as per 3Q investor call). NAA does not have a first contract and World does. I have a feeling my opinions may be put to the test soon.

Bel

 

[B737Dvr]

I agree ALPA is flawed.. for me it's the lesser of evils. The problem with in-house unions, as APA found out is they have a lot less political muscle than a national union with a large membership. In the end, this is all waged and played out in the halls of congress. When an IPA or APA goes on strike, a president (democrat or republican) is far more likely to bust that strike (as Clinton did to APA) than if it were part of a much larger lobby group.

I don't know what the answer is... but I know what it's not: Non-Union upstarts.. They're all just taking advantage of a bad situation and it makes me sick.

I have a gripe with ALPA, i just remembered it, when i was part of a start up that is no longer in existence, we wanted ALPA, but since we were not up to 100 pilots, they wouldnt even talk to us, the IBT did and they were being brought on the property, unfortunately....we never lasted long enough and the company took its place among the has beens......but that had nothing to do with lack of a union, just bad management. ALPA will always place the big gusy before the little guys, like someone else said, they are a business. they have done much for pilots, but when push comes to shove, it reallys is everyone for theirself, otherwise comair would have equitable contract similar to delta's.

now for your "no one can beat " the one large national union theory......
ALPA can never strike any DOD flying, AND please explain how a national union got canned in its entirety when reagan fired all patco air traffic employees!

the socialist remark was about you being heavy handed with those that dont wear a similar pin on your lapel......what was left unsaid in all your posts was:
"you are either with us or against us"............now that was a way to build a coalition!

before i am seen in a wrong light, i am for us being there, and support our guys there......i just dont support the means by which the ends are trying to be accomplished......

your ultimate stance of a unified front is something that we will always strive for, just remember that in the process of swaying people to your cause, you must first show them that you are their friend and allay!

 

[Whistlin' Dan]

If I was to be a member of any pilot labor organization it would have to be the IPA (Independent Pilots Group - UPS Pilot representation). They seem to be the most powerful union in aviation and from what I have heard they look after their charges most effectively and completely.

That's ONLY because they can afford to be. They represent branded employees, flying branded cargo. That is to say that every piece of cargo on the airplane has an airbill attached to it, and the name on that airbill matches the name on both the pilots cap AND paycheck.

When UPS started their "in-house" air ops, they relied exclusively on ACMI carriers, and none of them were worth a d*mn, IMHO. UPS didn't care, it was Alan T. McArtor, then-administrator of the FAA (and former D/O of FedEx) who made them bring their airline ops in-house. Every single UPS pilot, from the newest new-hire to the #1 guy on the seniority list, owes that guy a great big kiss on the lips every payday, because without him, they'd all be flying MD-11's for $125/hr instead of $216, and there would be no job security beyond their next landing, wherever that might be. Trust me, I was there...

Saying that working for one ACMI is better than working at another is like saying that working "Burger King" is better than working for "McDonalds." NONE of the ACMI carriers offers the pay, benefits, or stability of the "Big Two," nor can they. If and when the day ever comes when they do (or when the unions tell them they have to), watch out! The owners will move their capital out and start a new airline, taking only their "best" (read "hungriest, least likely to bee-yotch" pilots and starting them at new first-year pay rates.

Listening to some of you guys talk about how good "your" ACMI is compared to somebody else's is like listening to some 5-year-old on a Merry-Go-'Round bragging about how high "his" horsey is. You really don't get it...

Not sure what can kill an ACMI other than another ACMI... in the end, it's about providing airlines with excess capacity in peak demand moments so they don't have to have larger than necessary fleets.

OK, I'm calling bull$hit on that statement right here, right now! Gemini has been flying DHL cargo over the pond for years now. It's not "excess" cargo, it's DHL core business, and it's not happening only in "peak demand moments," but 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the last several years. Why? Because your guys will do it $100/hr cheaper than Astar will, and they're already doing it for less than pilots at ABX, UPS, or FedEx. I don't entirely blame the pilots for that, they're in a tough position too. But don't even start with that "we're only doing what other people can't, or won't" stuff. You're bottom-feeders, and like a street-corner whore, your income and job-security are a function of what you'll do, and how cheap you'll do it.

Welcome to the streets. You have a lot to learn about this business, and I would suggest you start by not drinking the Kool-Aid that your company is providing you...

 

[B737Dvr]

Listening to some of you guys talk about how good "your" ACMI is compared to somebody else's is like listening to some 5-year-old on a Merry-Go-'Round bragging about how high "his" horsey is. You really don't get it...


Whistlin Dan................THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

 

[HA25]

Welcome to the streets. You have a lot to learn about this business, and I would suggest you start by not drinking the Kool-Aid that your company is providing you...

Sounds like you have other issues with ACMI that have nothing at all to do with this thread. No problem, you're entitled to your view, and a lot of it is valid.