Central Air down near KC

[Boris Badenov]

http://www.basehorinfo.com/news/200...ear_kansas_highway_32_southern_leav/?breaking

http://www.kmbc.com/video/16696785/index.html

Two more freightdoggies climbing unlimited. Sorry to see.

 

[100-1/2]

I'll go first.

Full Flaps, Gear Down, small and compact crash site with debris scattered in a yawing momentum pattern.

Density Altitude was 2800' at the surface around 8pm last night. Couldn't have been much lower around 11am with an overnight low of 65' with 80% humidity.

In basic multi-engine instruction 20 years ago, we spent an hour briefing the maneuvers, calculating stall speeds and density altitudes for the conditions expected prior to flight. I have sat in many fbo's in earshot of schools and 135 training flights where these factors received little or no redress. Too, many flight departments are too quick to rush through training in order to put a check in a box and sign someone off fit for PIC duty. They further pi55 in murphy's cornflakes when the instructor permits students' performances to encroach their own personal limitations which in this case we will find were well beyond the limits of the airframe for the ambient conditions that existed at the time.

Since when did we become test pilots or think we know more than manufacturers of these fine aviation products? It is an industry of NUMBERS! TOLERANCES! LIVES! Disregard for anyone factor will severly inhibit the survivability of the other's.

I do grieve for the loss of a brother and a competitor's valuable assetts as well as the families'. I kringe at the thought of the tort suits circling and the FAA's frothing at the concept of shutting down internal training of 135 operator's. Truth is the training department probably lacked some oversight or leadership that contributed to the loss of these lives, but the suits won't stop until Commander aircraft assetts, the operator and others like them are 'made to pay' or are shut down because of a rush to put a check in a box.

Knock this crap off guys and gals. You are better than this!

100-1/2

 

[xkuzme1]

I'll go first.

Full Flaps, Gear Down, small and compact crash site with debris scattered in a yawing momentum pattern.

Density Altitude was 2800' at the surface around 8pm last night. Couldn't have been much lower around 11am with an overnight low of 65' with 80% humidity.

In basic multi-engine instruction 20 years ago, we spent an hour briefing the maneuvers, calculating stall speeds and density altitudes for the conditions expected prior to flight. I have sat in many fbo's in earshot of schools and 135 training flights where these factors received little or no redress. Too, many flight departments are too quick to rush through training in order to put a check in a box and sign someone off fit for PIC duty. They further pi55 in murphy's cornflakes when the instructor permits students' performances to encroach their own personal limitations which in this case we will find were well beyond the limits of the airframe for the ambient conditions that existed at the time.

Since when did we become test pilots or think we know more than manufacturers of these fine aviation products? It is an industry of NUMBERS! TOLERANCES! LIVES! Disregard for anyone factor will severly inhibit the survivability of the other's.

I do grieve for the loss of a brother and a competitor's valuable assetts as well as the families'. I kringe at the thought of the tort suits circling and the FAA's frothing at the concept of shutting down internal training of 135 operator's. Truth is the training department probably lacked some oversight or leadership that contributed to the loss of these lives, but the suits won't stop until Commander aircraft assetts, the operator and others like them are 'made to pay' or are shut down because of a rush to put a check in a box.

Knock this crap off guys and gals. You are better than this!

100-1/2

I dont think that you could possibly be talking about Murray. He did not give anyone a free ride on his check rides. As a matter of fact, Murray had a reputation of making sure that you knew exactly what your limits were. he only graded you on what was required. Murray was fair, but after his checkride, there was no doubt that you had been schooled.

If any of you have flown for Central Air then you know Murray Brown. He died today while training one of their pilots.

Murray Brown was the DO. He was a great guy and a first class pilot and instructor. He did my initial 135 ride. He handed my ass to me. He made me a better pilot. Murray made sure that you were ready to brave the aviation world as a single pilot freight dog. I did not know him as well as others, but I did respect him.

God Speed Murray. Blue skies and tailwinds.

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/...=30&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

 

[BWatz]

I agree 100% with the above. He was an excellent teacher/pilot... He also handed my ass to me, but taught me a lot.

 

[ctab5060X]

Make that 2 of us. Murray was a great pilot and good friend.

If he signed you off as safe to fly, you were.

He probably had more hours in the Commander than most pilots will see in a career.

Godspeed MB.

 

[100-1/2]

Please, explain to me where you will find in official faa publications such as (PTS, Private, Commercial or ATP) where, "having your ass handed to you" is a requirement for demonstrating proficiency and obvious command of an aircraft with the outcome of a maneuver never being in doubt?

Facts speak volumes.

Fact. - An AC50 sits pancaked in the middle of a field in Missouri.

Fact. - Two souls perrished in the incident above.

Fact. - This has been described as an originating flight with the purpose of instruction under a FAR Part 135 Training Program (implicitly approved by the CHDO).

Fact. - The Landing Gear and doors are clearly visible in the extended position under the right nacelle of the above aircraft.

Fact. - Both Flaps are positioned in the full down position in the same aircraft.

Fact. - 10k+ ATP pilots have stalled, spun in and died in the traffic pattern turning base to final at a frequency not afar from that of student pilots.

Fact. - FAR 135 ME Flight instruction kills more operator's pilots every year than Revenue Operations. 2003 FAA/NTSB/ASF Study of 1992-2002 FAR 135 incidents.

Different people handle different stresses differently. It is possible to have Zero Tolerance and adherence to the PTS limitations while being comfortable worked on an association of failures, tasks and assignments while demonstrating that stated above. WITHOUT BEING AN ASS or HANDING SOMEONE THEIRS! I have never washed out of anything or failed any applications although I can tell you there were times where I cut it a little close and should have been made to do it all over again. Some of my most valuable experiences that I hold nearest and dearest were the ones where I royally fouled up a situation that by ONLY GOD's Grace I am here today and was granted the reprieve to see my wife and kids again.

Those are the experiences that have made me what I am today not some analytical ball-buster pushing me to the brink of mental white-out. I would caution anyone else, adding their $.02 about murray if ther care to preserve what a great guy he was. Chime-ins like that so far will only narrow the focus on his actions historically and more than there will already be given the nature of the flight.

What goes around comes around. There is always a bigger bully than you. Hand out enough "ass' eventually some gets handed back to you.

12k hour pilots crash because, "there ain't nothing they never have seen that they can't handle".

Lifelong "Gold Seal" Instructors crash becaues, "there ain't no student they never have seen that they can't handle".

I won't speak as to what murray was thinking prior to this misfortune, but the most time in the subject aircraft with a history like that disclosed above, what said he about his experience and ability to prevent the obvious outcome as it were?

Again, I do grieve and relish in no man's demise. It frustrate's me immeasurably now more than ever that experience and "know-how" failed miserably today and two lives perrished because of it.

100-1/2

 

[ctab5060X]

Here we are trying hard to remember a fellow friend and pilot that we have worked with...and you...

...you are armchair QBing the accident less than 12 hours after it happened. Why don't you give youself a big old pat on the back for that one!

If you have been on site and have all the proper accident investigator qualifications, they by all means...

if not...shut up.

Let the FAA and NTSB do their jobs.

We are doing ours...remembering a friend.

 

[mvedepo]

100 1/2,

Why don't you step down off of your soap box. If you can sit there and tell me that YOU have never made a mistake in an airplane then either you are a liar or you have never actually flown.
The fact of the matter is that you are not investigating the crash. Its EASY to be an armchair quarterback. I have no problem discussing an accident in the hopes of coming away with some knowledge to prevent something similar from happening again. You have crucified this guy in your grave dance and I find it disturbing. Have some respect.

 

[356emain]

I am so sorry to hear about Murray. I flew with him at Central over twenty years ago. You will not find a better pilot but more important a better person. My heart goes out to his family.

 

[ubpilot]

Murray was a great pilot and a great guy, he did my Part 135 ride four years ago. I'll miss him!