Central Air down near KC

[Boris Badenov]

http://www.basehorinfo.com/news/200...ear_kansas_highway_32_southern_leav/?breaking

http://www.kmbc.com/video/16696785/index.html

Two more freightdoggies climbing unlimited. Sorry to see.

 

[100-1/2]

I'll go first.

Full Flaps, Gear Down, small and compact crash site with debris scattered in a yawing momentum pattern.

Density Altitude was 2800' at the surface around 8pm last night. Couldn't have been much lower around 11am with an overnight low of 65' with 80% humidity.

In basic multi-engine instruction 20 years ago, we spent an hour briefing the maneuvers, calculating stall speeds and density altitudes for the conditions expected prior to flight. I have sat in many fbo's in earshot of schools and 135 training flights where these factors received little or no redress. Too, many flight departments are too quick to rush through training in order to put a check in a box and sign someone off fit for PIC duty. They further pi55 in murphy's cornflakes when the instructor permits students' performances to encroach their own personal limitations which in this case we will find were well beyond the limits of the airframe for the ambient conditions that existed at the time.

Since when did we become test pilots or think we know more than manufacturers of these fine aviation products? It is an industry of NUMBERS! TOLERANCES! LIVES! Disregard for anyone factor will severly inhibit the survivability of the other's.

I do grieve for the loss of a brother and a competitor's valuable assetts as well as the families'. I kringe at the thought of the tort suits circling and the FAA's frothing at the concept of shutting down internal training of 135 operator's. Truth is the training department probably lacked some oversight or leadership that contributed to the loss of these lives, but the suits won't stop until Commander aircraft assetts, the operator and others like them are 'made to pay' or are shut down because of a rush to put a check in a box.

Knock this crap off guys and gals. You are better than this!

100-1/2

 

[xkuzme1]

I'll go first.

Full Flaps, Gear Down, small and compact crash site with debris scattered in a yawing momentum pattern.

Density Altitude was 2800' at the surface around 8pm last night. Couldn't have been much lower around 11am with an overnight low of 65' with 80% humidity.

In basic multi-engine instruction 20 years ago, we spent an hour briefing the maneuvers, calculating stall speeds and density altitudes for the conditions expected prior to flight. I have sat in many fbo's in earshot of schools and 135 training flights where these factors received little or no redress. Too, many flight departments are too quick to rush through training in order to put a check in a box and sign someone off fit for PIC duty. They further pi55 in murphy's cornflakes when the instructor permits students' performances to encroach their own personal limitations which in this case we will find were well beyond the limits of the airframe for the ambient conditions that existed at the time.

Since when did we become test pilots or think we know more than manufacturers of these fine aviation products? It is an industry of NUMBERS! TOLERANCES! LIVES! Disregard for anyone factor will severly inhibit the survivability of the other's.

I do grieve for the loss of a brother and a competitor's valuable assetts as well as the families'. I kringe at the thought of the tort suits circling and the FAA's frothing at the concept of shutting down internal training of 135 operator's. Truth is the training department probably lacked some oversight or leadership that contributed to the loss of these lives, but the suits won't stop until Commander aircraft assetts, the operator and others like them are 'made to pay' or are shut down because of a rush to put a check in a box.

Knock this crap off guys and gals. You are better than this!

100-1/2

I dont think that you could possibly be talking about Murray. He did not give anyone a free ride on his check rides. As a matter of fact, Murray had a reputation of making sure that you knew exactly what your limits were. he only graded you on what was required. Murray was fair, but after his checkride, there was no doubt that you had been schooled.

If any of you have flown for Central Air then you know Murray Brown. He died today while training one of their pilots.

Murray Brown was the DO. He was a great guy and a first class pilot and instructor. He did my initial 135 ride. He handed my ass to me. He made me a better pilot. Murray made sure that you were ready to brave the aviation world as a single pilot freight dog. I did not know him as well as others, but I did respect him.

God Speed Murray. Blue skies and tailwinds.

http://www.myfoxkc.com/myfox/pages/...=30&locale=EN-US&layoutCode=TSTY&pageId=3.2.1

 

[BWatz]

I agree 100% with the above. He was an excellent teacher/pilot... He also handed my ass to me, but taught me a lot.

 

[ctab5060X]

Make that 2 of us. Murray was a great pilot and good friend.

If he signed you off as safe to fly, you were.

He probably had more hours in the Commander than most pilots will see in a career.

Godspeed MB.

 

[100-1/2]

Please, explain to me where you will find in official faa publications such as (PTS, Private, Commercial or ATP) where, "having your ass handed to you" is a requirement for demonstrating proficiency and obvious command of an aircraft with the outcome of a maneuver never being in doubt?

Facts speak volumes.

Fact. - An AC50 sits pancaked in the middle of a field in Missouri.

Fact. - Two souls perrished in the incident above.

Fact. - This has been described as an originating flight with the purpose of instruction under a FAR Part 135 Training Program (implicitly approved by the CHDO).

Fact. - The Landing Gear and doors are clearly visible in the extended position under the right nacelle of the above aircraft.

Fact. - Both Flaps are positioned in the full down position in the same aircraft.

Fact. - 10k+ ATP pilots have stalled, spun in and died in the traffic pattern turning base to final at a frequency not afar from that of student pilots.

Fact. - FAR 135 ME Flight instruction kills more operator's pilots every year than Revenue Operations. 2003 FAA/NTSB/ASF Study of 1992-2002 FAR 135 incidents.

Different people handle different stresses differently. It is possible to have Zero Tolerance and adherence to the PTS limitations while being comfortable worked on an association of failures, tasks and assignments while demonstrating that stated above. WITHOUT BEING AN ASS or HANDING SOMEONE THEIRS! I have never washed out of anything or failed any applications although I can tell you there were times where I cut it a little close and should have been made to do it all over again. Some of my most valuable experiences that I hold nearest and dearest were the ones where I royally fouled up a situation that by ONLY GOD's Grace I am here today and was granted the reprieve to see my wife and kids again.

Those are the experiences that have made me what I am today not some analytical ball-buster pushing me to the brink of mental white-out. I would caution anyone else, adding their $.02 about murray if ther care to preserve what a great guy he was. Chime-ins like that so far will only narrow the focus on his actions historically and more than there will already be given the nature of the flight.

What goes around comes around. There is always a bigger bully than you. Hand out enough "ass' eventually some gets handed back to you.

12k hour pilots crash because, "there ain't nothing they never have seen that they can't handle".

Lifelong "Gold Seal" Instructors crash becaues, "there ain't no student they never have seen that they can't handle".

I won't speak as to what murray was thinking prior to this misfortune, but the most time in the subject aircraft with a history like that disclosed above, what said he about his experience and ability to prevent the obvious outcome as it were?

Again, I do grieve and relish in no man's demise. It frustrate's me immeasurably now more than ever that experience and "know-how" failed miserably today and two lives perrished because of it.

100-1/2

 

[ctab5060X]

Here we are trying hard to remember a fellow friend and pilot that we have worked with...and you...

...you are armchair QBing the accident less than 12 hours after it happened. Why don't you give youself a big old pat on the back for that one!

If you have been on site and have all the proper accident investigator qualifications, they by all means...

if not...shut up.

Let the FAA and NTSB do their jobs.

We are doing ours...remembering a friend.

 

[mvedepo]

100 1/2,

Why don't you step down off of your soap box. If you can sit there and tell me that YOU have never made a mistake in an airplane then either you are a liar or you have never actually flown.
The fact of the matter is that you are not investigating the crash. Its EASY to be an armchair quarterback. I have no problem discussing an accident in the hopes of coming away with some knowledge to prevent something similar from happening again. You have crucified this guy in your grave dance and I find it disturbing. Have some respect.

 

[356emain]

I am so sorry to hear about Murray. I flew with him at Central over twenty years ago. You will not find a better pilot but more important a better person. My heart goes out to his family.

 

[ubpilot]

Murray was a great pilot and a great guy, he did my Part 135 ride four years ago. I'll miss him!

 

[100-1/2]

No soap box.

A Plain and Simple Pleading.

My passion for this industry and those whom comprise it cannot be measured or matched.

Every time a preventable accident like this happens, more and more ammunition is given to the airlines to say we are unsafe and should be overregulated into non-existence. It starts by saying, this plane or that is unsafe. This person or that type is unfit for DO,CP or instructor. This operator or that one flying that equipment requires more insurance or cannot do their own training in house because it cannot be done safely outside of simulated instruction. Real practical experience is the most valuable environment from which to learn. However, there are some flight regimes, better experienced where you can bring your flight crew and aircraft back to life. You hold a number of 121 types? Have you ever demonstrated Vmc or V1 Engine Outs in any of those airplanes? Why is it acceptable in 135? The reason is it can be safely accomplished and far more economically under 135. However, "the more time you spend on the edge, eventually you run out of room." The numbers are plain and simply against you. Congress, the FAA, families and insurance companies feel with enough regluation, bureacracy and oversight, nobody will ever die in an accident again.

Murray likely was a most valuable contribution to this industry and will be sorely missed. However, the FAA made a shift some number of years ago changing the tone, attitudes and environment within the cockpit during checkrides and airman practical applications. Suddenly, Inspector's longevity was increased with 66 percent less fatalities every year while pass/fail ratios remained unchanged.

I love your comment on "dancing". Your education and experience listed in your avitars say you should have better read my posts. I will make it more elementary for you:

1. Please, Please, Please, Stop crashing airplanes and doing stupid stuff that makes it harder and harder for the rest of us left behind to clean up the mess and answer to the baby with the bathwater bureacrats that think new rules and requirements from the rest of us will prevent future accidents from killing anyone else.

2. If at anytime you are uncomfortable with the conduct of an examination, an operator, dispatcher, maintenance manager or that feeling deep down in your gut, exercise your right to discontinue whatever it is you are being asked to do. Land, go home, hug your wife and kids come back and do it again another day when circumstances have changed. Polish up your resume and go somewhere else if you have to. The point is GO HOME! ALIVE to fight another day. If you cannot discontinue a progression leading to your death in a training environment, how are you going to do the same on the line presented with the same set of circumstances?

3. I have not been assigned to this investigation. But since you asked, enroute to every site, it is customary to assemble a wealth of information prior to arriving on site as is being/has been done. On site, an open mind gathers significantly more data and absorbs a additional preliminary information. Scarring and impact damage occurs on various components and instruments indicating orientation and readings at the time of impact. I will spare you the remainder of the data considered out of respect for the departed. Within a couple of days the investgation team will depart with a preliminary consensus among the members although an official printed release will often require several months while reassembly and operation of powerplants, propellers and safety equipment confirm the initial site findings. By that time there will have been many more pages here going on about me and what an ass I am for asking and pleading with everyone to take better care of eachother and our industry before someone else decides we ought not be any longer; in life or in operation.

Now, read my other posts again. Then read this one again and tell me how much more elementary this needs to be.

100-1/2

 

[Way2Broke]

This is the 2nd person that I know for me in a week, Mark in the Wiggins crash and now Murray. Murray hired me at Central Air, and did my training. He was a good instructor and a great guy. This past week has been brutal. Both of them use to be my D.O. (Mark and Murray). Godspeed guys.

I have more to say, but I just can't right now. I'm actually kindove pissed off. This is crap. I guess I just don't get it. It has suddenly hit close to home this last week. It was always someone else, or some half-assed carrier that didn't know what they were doing. Just goes to prove that you can never say that "it will never happen to me", because we are all human and these are inherently dangerous machines.

For some reason it is actually very difficult NOT to think, not very long ago, I was 22 and getting instruction in the Shrike, taking great pride in the fact that I stuck with it and I finally was getting paid to fly instead of instruct. The guy getting the training from Murray was probably boasting with the same pride inside. It's very unfortunate that he will never get to see what all this life and career has to offer, and the adventurous that laid ahead of him. It's a shame.

I know there is nothing scientific about that, but sometimes it doesn't have to be.

 

[pipe]

Given the way the ownership has run that place over the years, I think that it's safe to say that Murray is probably the reason many of us are alive today.

Murray was a FABULOUS instructor

Murray did not take foolish chances

Murray approached Commander training as seriously as any airline approaches a 737 or similar aircraft

Murray was always the voice of reason when others in charge at CA were not doing the right thing

Murray did my training 13 years ago and I owe him a debt of gratitude and a prayer

100 1/2 - Start your own thread if you wish to opine about the "bottom" part of this industry and don't screw with this thread any more.

Godspeed Murray.

PIPE

 

[ctab5060X]

Given the way the ownership has run that place over the years, I think that it's safe to say that Murray is probably the reason many of us are alive today.

Murray was a FABULOUS instructor

Murray did not take foolish chances

Murray approached Commander training as seriously as any airline approaches a 737 or similar aircraft

Murray was always the voice of reason when others in charge at CA were not doing the right thing

Murray did my training 13 years ago and I owe him a debt of gratitude and a prayer

100 1/2 - Start your own thread if you wish to opine about the "bottom" part of this industry and don't screw with this thread any more.

Godspeed Murray.

PIPE

Amen!

oh, and 100 1/2...you might want to check your facts, some of them are wrong.

 

[flytheblue]

From the news reports it almost sounds like both engines were having issues right after takeoff. Unusual, but it does happen- look at this other recent accident in the AC500:


On June 9, 2008, about 1401 eastern daylight time, an Aero Commander 500S, N501AP, registered to and operated by Gramar 500, Inc., experienced a loss of engine power in both engines and was ditched in the Atlantic Ocean about 1/2 mile south of North Bimini, Bahamas. Visual meteorological conditions prevailed in the area and a visual flight rules flight plan was filed for the 14 Code of Federal Regulations (CFR) Part 91 personal flight from Nassau International Airport (MYNN), Nassau, Bahamas, to Ft. Lauderdale Executive Airport (FXE), Ft. Lauderdale, Florida. The airplane was destroyed due to salt water immersion, and the airline transport rated pilot, the sole occupant, was not injured.

 

[Way2Broke]

I do not care to speculate about the cause of this crash, but dual engine failures in AC500's are usually caused by Jet-A being put in the tanks.

 

[Boris Badenov]

1. Please, Please, Please, Stop crashing airplanes and doing stupid stuff

In my country it's customary to wait until the bodies are cold to spit on them. Prick.

My passion for this industry and those whom comprise it cannot be measured or matched.

uhhhhh, ok Top Gun Carebear!

 

[embpic1]

Fact. - The Landing Gear and doors are clearly visible in the extended position under the right nacelle of the above aircraft.

Fact. - Both Flaps are positioned in the full down position in the same aircraft.

I am sure you are aware that these FACTS as you call them are not FACTS at all. In a crash like this, it is very likely that many things moved from their pre 'crash' position. Let's let the NTSB determine where the flaps and gear were before the crash.

 

[CaravanMan]

I'm sure the almighty 100-1/2 is also aware that the flaps in the Commander are hydraulic and will fall to the Down position when system pressure has bled off. Go walk around MKC in the late afternoon when all of the Commanders have been sitting all day...I'm sure you'll see some that way.

You, sir, are one arrogant piece of work. Go crawl back under your rock.

In response to what others have said about Murray- bingo. He was a great guy. He by no means let anyone off easily in training. If you passed Murray's checkride, you were ready. Murray's checkrides were not like other 135 company checkrides where you PASS no matter what. He'd fail you in an instant and re-train you. I remember my training partner had a hard time, and it's because of Murray that he made it through safely. Didn't make it through the first time, but a few weeks later. I'm sure Murray saved his life, and hundreds of other CASW pilots through his talent. He will be missed.

 

[Grinder10]

100-1/2

Has someone you know ever died in a plane crash? If not you haven't been around very long. If you knew this person would you be carrying on about how stupid, reckless, and irresponsible they were? I bet you would give a great eulogy.

Because of your "passion", I'm sure you will never have mechanical/structural/flight control problems. If you had a dual engine failure shortly after takeoff do you think your "passion" would carry you safely to the ground?:erm:

I too flew for Central Air and received excellent instruction. Murphy was a top notch pilot and far from a cowboy type. I don't know the student, but I have compassion for his family because I too was 24 when I did my initial. Both of their families must be crushed right now.

And lastly, as we all know the media is 100% correct any time they write about aviation.

Take your own advice: "Knock this crap off guys and gals. You are better than this!" (but then again maybe you are just a d1ck)