Ce750 Job, Type Rating Required

[CitationXDriver]

I have the hookup for a Citation X job in the Chicago area. This is primarily 135 flying with some occasional 91 work. This is a Captain position and possibly Chief Pilot of a 2 aircraft flight Department. Type rating is required, current even better. I have lots of more info, PM me with serious questions and resume and I will forward it to the powers that be.

 

[SCT]

OK, I'll bite.

"and soon to be CE750"

Are you getting a 750 type with 1200 hrs?

 

[flydaddy0499]

Maybe he likes to think prophetically???

 

[Flying Illini]

he doesn't have to be typed to fly the plane...and it's not listed under the ratings section...

 

[SCT]

Call me old fashioned, but a 1200hr pilot flying as a crewmember on a CE750, (with or without a type rating) scares me.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Call me old fashioned, but a 1200hr pilot flying as a crewmember on a CE750, (with or without a type rating) scares me.

Old Fashion. With the right training, a 1200 hour pilot flying in a complex jet environment is not only doable, but can only be safe. How many hours you think those F16 drivers have? If you want to get humbled, go up against a 1200, 1300, 1400 hour pilot in a sim and try to fly an ILS better than he does. That's their bread and butter and they do that all day long. You'll get schooled son. The regionals, and some nationals, take low time guys, train them right, then stick them in the right seat. I think initially it is more of a learning environment than a working environment, but 1 or 2 huundred hours and things tend to smooth out. They fly all day long in aircraft more sophiscated than a C750, several legs a day, with 50+ peopel behind them, in and out of crap WX. The learning curve for them is high, and most tend to rise up and meet the challenge. If they are doing that, I'd certainly say they are qualified to fly anything we are. I would not suggest turning loose a 1200 hour pilot trained in a civilian environment as a PIC in such an aircraft, but have him/her supervised by a qualified PIC is just fine. I'm sure we have all flown with higher time so called PICs that don't have any idea what they are doing or have any business flying in the PIC capacity. It's all about the decision making skills of a crew, not the total time, within reason of course. 1200 hours is not a lot of time, but to shut the door on a good stick and trainable pilot does not make much sense to me.

 

[xrated]

Old Fashion. With the right training, a 1200 hour pilot flying in a complex jet environment is not only doable, but can only be safe. How many hours you think those F16 drivers have? If you want to get humbled, go up against a 1200, 1300, 1400 hour pilot in a sim and try to fly an ILS better than he does. That's their bread and butter and they do that all day long. You'll get schooled son. The regionals, and some nationals, take low time guys, train them right, then stick them in the right seat. I think initially it is more of a learning environment than a working environment, but 1 or 2 huundred hours and things tend to smooth out. They fly all day long in aircraft more sophiscated than a C750, several legs a day, with 50+ peopel behind them, in and out of crap WX. The learning curve for them is high, and most tend to rise up and meet the challenge. If they are doing that, I'd certainly say they are qualified to fly anything we are. I would not suggest turning loose a 1200 hour pilot trained in a civilian environment as a PIC in such an aircraft, but have him/her supervised by a qualified PIC is just fine. I'm sure we have all flown with higher time so called PICs that don't have any idea what they are doing or have any business flying in the PIC capacity. It's all about the decision making skills of a crew, not the total time, within reason of course. 1200 hours is not a lot of time, but to shut the door on a good stick and trainable pilot does not make much sense to me.

Your point is taken and I even agree with you to some extent! (Let the flaming begin). The question I have is what insurance company would insure a pilot with the experience listed?

 

[psysicx]

I'm not saying your wrong but Pan Am flight school can not be compared to military flight training.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Your point is taken and I even agree with you to some extent! (Let the flaming begin). The question I have is what insurance company would insure a pilot with the experience listed?

More than you think. Over the past few years, I have learned quite a bit about the aviation insurance industry. If someone tells you they can't hire you becasue os insurance, 1 of 2 things is happening.
1) They are lying and just use that excuse to send you on your way
2) They are ineffective leaders allowing insurance brokers to run their departments.
I'll explain: Lots of times, the CP will say to the broker I got this guy I want to hire. Can I get him insured? That is the 1st mistake. Don't ask, tell. Call the broker and say I hired this guy and I need insured before he leaves for school. At that point the broker should call the underwriter and go to work. If the broker has a good relationship with the underwriter, no problem. The request must be reasonable though. Sending a 1200 hour guy to FSI or Siumflite for an initial and a type to fly on the C750 as a co pilot is reasonable. To send him down there and then want him to be a PIC is not reasonable. Too many pilots allow the broker to say yes or no. It's not up to the broker to staff your department. The broker works for the flight department, so if the broker flat out says no, especially without asking the underwriter, that broker should be fired and you should find a broker that will work for you. Tessa over at NationAir is a great example of a loser broker. When I was 1st starting out and didn't know a thing about insurance, my boss told me I could go to school on our 2nd jet type if I got the insurance to sign off on it. I called Tessa and after 5 days of calling her and calling her, she finally took my call and shot me down right there on the spot, thus costing me a type rating and holding up my career progression. She was just being lazy and thought she knew all the answers. When I got a friend in the insurance business and he told me I should have had no problem getting insured, I revisited the issue, and found out how this insurance thing works. Needless to say, Tessa got her lazy A#S fired, and my friend got our business. Tessa was rude and disrespectful because I was not the CP or the aircraft owner. Well, I'll be a CP one day, and NationAir will never have any of my business. I tell this story becasue it's crucial to know that the underwriter is who gives the OK, not the broker. My friend I spoke of has gotten a CFI approved for P135 on a Challenger and all he had to do was go to a recurrent, though he never went to an initial!!! It's sick, I know, but my friend is extremely sucessful becasue he does what the CP asks him to do. He does not go around trying to tell the CP how to run his department or who he can and cannot hire. He picks up the phone, calls the underwriter and explains the situation instead of just faxing over a pilot history form and waiting for a yes or a no. Not to mention, he saves his clients significant percentages on their renewals becasue he actually takes time to talk to the clients and find out their specific needs. He has an excellent relationship with the underwriters becasue he realizes how critical that relationship is to his business. If more brokers worked hard like that, he be a dime a dozen. Instead, he is flourshing and a rarity in the business, because of the approach he takes to his customer's needs. Read this post and it will explain more. http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=64295
Edit: I got a lot of PMs wanting this guys contact info, so if anyone else wants to contact him about becoming their broker, PM me and I will put you in touch with him. Bottom Line, don't take a "No" from somebody that does not have the authority to give you a "Yes".

 

[SCT]

God Bless Mark and his family.


This subject has been debated to death on this board, but here I go.

I think the whole subject comes down to money. The company, the boss, the board, the CEO or chief pilot not wanting or willing to pay a qualified and experienced pilot to fill a position for what ever reason.

Then there is an endless stream of young energetic pilots willing to fill that seat even though their experience level on average does not meet the
demands of the airplane.

First off, I'm talking "averages". Everyone can point out an example of a 500 hr wiz kid keeping the right seat of a G5 warm. And I also know of a few 8,000 hr pilots that were terrible pilots (either stick and rudder or automation or both).
Second, I'm talking average GA trained pilots not zero hr to F16 trained military pilots.
Third, and this point can be debated but on average, in the corporate world at the GV, Challenger, X, etc level most F500 companies have co-captians flying as a crew. I'm glad I work for a company and CEO where safety is number 1 over saving money.

Now, I agree that every young budding prof. pilot needs to get a "break" in their career. (I know I did.) But I still say that a 1200 pilot flying around in a large corporate a/c is not the best qualified person for the job (kind of like President Bush's Supreme Court nominee. And I'm even a Bush fan.) Maybe I was a below average 1000hr pilot but I know I wasn't ready for that type of a position at the point in my career.

Just my opinion,
SCT

PS- And while the X is not an SR71, it is not your average straight wing Cessna.

 

[Diesel]

The X is probably one of the scariest handling planes at slow speeds i've ever flown.

The last 1000 feet in that plane make you work harder than any other plane out there.

It's not comforting to roll the ailerons to the stops and it's still going the wrong way.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

The X is probably one of the scariest handling planes at slow speeds i've ever flown.

The last 1000 feet in that plane make you work harder than any other plane out there.

It's not comforting to roll the ailerons to the stops and it's still going the wrong way.

OK, here's my question to Diesel and Hawk,

If you have two excellent candidates for a job in a X and they are both great pilots, one has 15,000 hours and one has 1,200 hours, which would you want flying your kids?

Heck, if you had a ford truck that needed a new transmission and there were two mechanics, one had replaced a transmission on a ford 1,000 times and one had done it 50 times, which one would you choose?

All other things being equal, which would you pick?

I can go on, but you'd get bored.

Ace

 

[SCT]

Diesel,

i agree totally. I had tons of Citation time and a few types when i received my 750 type, but I was humbled when i first started to fly the X. The airplane definitly demands your attention on landings. I've had to clean my shorts a few times with strong gusty crosswinds on slippery runways.

It's still fun to fly. I just wish the seats were more comfortable!

 

[MajorAv8r]

OK, here's my question to Diesel and Hawk,

If you have two excellent candidates for a job in a X and they are both great pilots, one has 15,000 hours and one has 1,200 hours, which would you want flying your kids?

Heck, if you had a ford truck that needed a new transmission and there were two mechanics, one had replaced a transmission on a ford 1,000 times and one had done it 50 times, which one would you choose?

All other things being equal, which would you pick?

I can go on, but you'd get bored.

Ace

Completely depends on where the hours were obtained, and what their experience is. Could be 15,000 of the same hour.

 

[HawkerF/O]

OK, here's my question to Diesel and Hawk,

If you have two excellent candidates for a job in a X and they are both great pilots, one has 15,000 hours and one has 1,200 hours, which would you want flying your kids?

Heck, if you had a ford truck that needed a new transmission and there were two mechanics, one had replaced a transmission on a ford 1,000 times and one had done it 50 times, which one would you choose?

All other things being equal, which would you pick?

I can go on, but you'd get bored.

Ace

It honestly depends. If the 15K hour guy had been flying a B1900 for most of that time and the 1200 hour guy got into the CRJ at 300 hours with some East Coast or Midwest commuter swapping legs and that is all he has been flying since, I would probably hire the 1200 hour guy. I would need to get them both in for an interview and see if the egos and arrogance are in check. Either one of them is going to have to be retrained, but if one already knows everything, then he does not need the job you spoke of as it's a learning environment.
I honestly do not feel as though there would be much difference in a guy that has changed a tranny 50 or 1000 times. I cahnge the own oil in my car, and the 1st couple of times I did it, I remember having the book out checking replacement quanities, torque settings, etc. When I do it now, it's all natural and I can do it with my eyes closed. Maybe that is not the smartest thing to do, but I guess it is all just a matter of opinion. For me, I guess I have no problem with cutting a guy a break, as good people tend not to forget that, and loyality trumps when push comes to shove. In aviation, if you can send someone to school and they do well, I have no problem with them flying my family, as long as I don't have to teach them to fly. With a 1200 hours guy, I'd put him in the right seat and he'll be swinging that gear for 100 to 150 hours. During that time, any empty legs he would get from the right seat as well, but he'd actually get to fly. After that, he fly from the right seat for 10-20 legs with Pax on board. Once those 10-20 legs are complete, I'd give him a few empty legs with no pax on board in the left seat in order to get use to the yoke to tiller and tiller to yoke transition. Once he is good there, then it's business as usual, swapping seats and legs. The trouble with some pilots, young and old, low time and high time, they think they are ready for more than they are getting. A pilot new to jets needs to sit in that right seat for a little while and just absorb what he sees. I was amazed at how much I learned about flying by not flying. Some guys get pissed off cause they are in the right seat, and if some 1200 hour guy I jsut hired so much as peeps about his current roll, then he needs a "Come to Jesus" meeting.

 

[English]

Some guys get pissed off cause they are in the right seat, and if some 1200 hour guy I jsut hired so much as peeps about his current roll, then he needs a "Come to Jesus" meeting.

Good point.

 

[HawkerF/O]

Good point.

Thank you, Sir! Been there myself, and I always appreciated the fact that I was lucky enough to have a job in the 1st place. I also realized I was learning and not just sitting there. The guy I was flying with was a real stick hog and an A##hole, but I learned alot over there, and everytime he made a mistake, I was quick to catch it, and oh what fun it was to bring it to his attention. That right seat will make you sharp, I just don't think it should be a permanent place for a fella to be.

 

[English]

I just quoted your statement so a friend of mine (who needs to read it) reads it.

 

[Ace-of-the-Base]

It honestly depends. If the 15K hour guy had been flying a B1900 for most of that time and the 1200 hour guy got into the CRJ at 300 hours with some East Coast or Midwest commuter swapping legs and that is all he has been flying since, I would probably hire the 1200 hour guy. I would need to get them both in for an interview and see if the egos and arrogance are in check. Either one of them is going to have to be retrained, but if one already knows everything, then he does not need the job you spoke of as it's a learning environment.
I honestly do not feel as though there would be much difference in a guy that has changed a tranny 50 or 1000 times. I cahnge the own oil in my car, and the 1st couple of times I did it, I remember having the book out checking replacement quanities, torque settings, etc. When I do it now, it's all natural and I can do it with my eyes closed. Maybe that is not the smartest thing to do, but I guess it is all just a matter of opinion. For me, I guess I have no problem with cutting a guy a break, as good people tend not to forget that, and loyality trumps when push comes to shove. In aviation, if you can send someone to school and they do well, I have no problem with them flying my family, as long as I don't have to teach them to fly. With a 1200 hours guy, I'd put him in the right seat and he'll be swinging that gear for 100 to 150 hours. During that time, any empty legs he would get from the right seat as well, but he'd actually get to fly. After that, he fly from the right seat for 10-20 legs with Pax on board. Once those 10-20 legs are complete, I'd give him a few empty legs with no pax on board in the left seat in order to get use to the yoke to tiller and tiller to yoke transition. Once he is good there, then it's business as usual, swapping seats and legs. The trouble with some pilots, young and old, low time and high time, they think they are ready for more than they are getting. A pilot new to jets needs to sit in that right seat for a little while and just absorb what he sees. I was amazed at how much I learned about flying by not flying. Some guys get pissed off cause they are in the right seat, and if some 1200 hour guy I jsut hired so much as peeps about his current roll, then he needs a "Come to Jesus" meeting.

I agree with most everything you said. The only point you are not making is that there is still alot to be said for experience. I've run into a 100 mechanics and there are ones who can set up an engine so it has no vibes and runs perfectly the first time. Some may be newer than others, but they all have a ton of experience. Yes, you can have a 10,000 hour pilot who is worse than a 1,200 hour pilot, that isn't my point. My point is that I'd rather be in the back with a 10,000 hour GREAT pilot than a great 1,200 pilot. I'm sure you are a better pilot today than you were yesterday, aren't you?

As for giving a good guy (or gal, English) a break, amen! Done it and it feels darn good to give something back.

Ace

Ps. I hope your comment about changing the oil without the 'book' doesn't translate to your checklist use in an airplane.

 

[HawkerF/O]

I agree with most everything you said. The only point you are not making is that there is still alot to be said for experience. I've run into a 100 mechanics and there are ones who can set up an engine so it has no vibes and runs perfectly the first time. Some may be newer than others, but they all have a ton of experience. Yes, you can have a 10,000 hour pilot who is worse than a 1,200 hour pilot, that isn't my point. My point is that I'd rather be in the back with a 10,000 hour GREAT pilot than a great 1,200 pilot. I'm sure you are a better pilot today than you were yesterday, aren't you?

Well, course. I'd like to think that we are all. FOr me, I know I don't know everything, and I look at every flight as a learning tool. We can all be better. I think when the learning stops, the danger begins. As for experience, you and I share similiar thoughts. I believe experience breed judgement. Not all the time though. Some of those 10K hour guys do some stupid things on a regular basis. I think Ego has a lot to do with that, whether they think they are invincable or whether they are too foolish to admit when they need help or have not made the best decision. That is why I feel putting a good stick lower time guy with an experienced Capt that is understand and willing to share and pass along some knowledge is one of the best situations you can find. You have a guy with some experience asking questions and learning while the other guy is answering those questions and thinking. It'll keep them both sharp and serve as an ongoing systems review. As for the checklist, no, it's not the same to me as the oil change. Doing an oil change right wont kill you, but missing checklist items could be potentially fatal, so I treat it accordingly. Most of the time, a missed item on the check list leads to embarrasment by an observant aviator, but it could be worse. I'm enjoying this back and forth with you.