CASM and outsourcing

[145BOSS]

Just to help me wrap my head around outsourcing and also avoid doing any research myself. Does anyone know the CASM for the following aircraft:

Q-400
50-Seat RJ (E-145 or CRJ-200)
70-Seat RJ (EMB or CRJ)
B737-800
B777

Appreciate the help.

 

[SSDD]

CASM is one of those figures that is widely misapplied. The main thing is not to put an RJ in a 777 market and vice versa.

 

[GuppyWN]

CASM depends on the COSTS.

History has shown that no two operators have the same costs.

Gup

 

[dogg]

in order to balance casm you have to back out labor and fuel from doc and then insert an average cost for each......without that, casm is meaningless

 

[Jetjockey]

Too many variables. Another metric I find interesting is how many employees per aircraft. Southwest has one of the lowest, I'm pretty sure. I think around 8. The larger the number, the higher the cost. The larger legacy airlines have a higher employee headcount per aircraft, which is part of the CASM factor.

 

[AC560]

Just to help me wrap my head around outsourcing

If you do the job for $100 per hour and somebody else will do a equal or in some cases a better job for $50 per hour that is how outsourcing works.

Fundamentally the pilots flying for (pick your favorite regional) crash just as many or less airplanes as their mainline counter parts and get paid substantially less. Equal quality for less pay is what it is all about.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

The quality is not even close...what stupid post

 

[CFIT]

The quality is not even close...what stupid post

Do you really believe the public thinks about the quality when they book their tickets?


It's 2 hours of their life cramped without a "cookie", what do they care?

 

[ualdriver]

Just to help me wrap my head around outsourcing and also avoid doing any research myself. Does anyone know the CASM for the following aircraft:

Q-400
50-Seat RJ (E-145 or CRJ-200)
70-Seat RJ (EMB or CRJ)
B737-800
B777

Appreciate the help.

Pages 14-20 should give you a good start

http://www.oliverwyman.com/ow/pdf_files/OW_EN_AAD_PUBL_2011_Airline_Economic_Analysis.pdf

The MIT airline data project (google it) has lots of BTS data nicely organized for airline data geeks.

You have to remember too that a lot of data that you see can't be taken at face value. For example, how many times have you seen guys post here about those "high cost" RJ's and then compare a piece of 737 CASM data to a piece of RJ CASM data and then comment on why airline management would substitute a RJ for a good 'ol 737 that is "cheaper" because it has a lower CASM than the RJ? Of course, 99% of the time the CASM for the 737 is for a longer stage length than that of the RJ, which makes the comparison pretty meaningless. There are lots of examples like that where one has to apply some sort of adjustment to the data in order to make fair comparisons.

 

[BoilerUP]

The quality is not even close...what stupid post

How do you define "quality"?

Other than the physical size of the airplane and a higher average age of the flight/cabin crew, can Joe Passenger sitting in 13A tell a quantifiable difference between the "quality" of a flight on a mainline aircraft and one on a regional aircraft?

Regional pilots fly the equipment of similar sophistication, in the same weather, into the same airports as legacy pilots.

Given that basic fact, how/why do you think a claim of "equal quality" is "stupid"?

 

[CA1900]

How do you define "quality"?

Well, maintenance, for one.

Last summer, I rode on two planes with deferred APUs. On the Alaska flight, a functional air conditioning cart was hooked up to the plane, and stayed hooked up until the last possible moment to keep the plane cool. On the Mesa flight, we baked in the Virginia sun with no airflow, while the dripping wet flight attendant repeatedly apologized and passed out cups of tepid water. I can only imagine how hot the cockpit was.

The Alaska plane got pulled down for repair after one leg. The Mesa plane, according to the pilots, was on its third day with a blown APU, and there was no plan to get it fixed any time soon.

 

[jetpig32]

Too many variables. Another metric I find interesting is how many employees per aircraft. Southwest has one of the lowest, I'm pretty sure. I think around 8. The larger the number, the higher the cost. The larger legacy airlines have a higher employee headcount per aircraft, which is part of the CASM factor.

Humm. 550 AC * 8 EMP/AC = 4400 Employees work at WN.

 

[Jetjockey]

I meant crew.........

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

Too many variables. Another metric I find interesting is how many employees per aircraft. Southwest has one of the lowest, I'm pretty sure. I think around 8. The larger the number, the higher the cost. The larger legacy airlines have a higher employee headcount per aircraft, which is part of the CASM factor.

In 2009 American Airlines spent roughly $72 for every one-way passenger it flew on employee salary and benefits. By comparison, Southwest Airlines spent just $40 for every one-way passenger it flew on employee salary and benefits.

This is not surprising, since in 2009 for every employee Southwest had it was able to transport 2,500 passengers while American could only manage 1,300 passengers flown for every employee it had.

(Source: http://www.airlinefinancials.com/airline_data_comparisons.html Charts 51 and Chart 57)

I think it's safe to say that AA has way too many managers at HDQ and elsewhere.

 

[IBNAV8R]

The quality is not even close...what stupid post

Riddle me this, Robin?

Why is that a certain regional airline consistently outperforms its major partner in customer satisfaction - while supposedly flying 45% of said partner's flights and despite partner's efforts to hamstring said regional's performance?

 

[Skyboy722]

I meant crew.........

WN has almost 6000 pilots, or roughly 11 per A/C. But your general point is correct though, the staffing is very efficient.

 

[IBNAV8R]

It's not only the number of employees per passenger flight, it's what those employees do. Happy employees tend to work harder than pissed-off ones.

I.e., 4 WN rampers to turn a 737 in 30 minutes vs. UAL needing 6 to turn a bus and taking an hour.

Legacy management will NEVER get that.

 

[Coool Hand Luke]

It's not only the number of employees per passenger flight, it's what those employees do. Happy employees tend to work harder than pissed-off ones.

I.e., 4 WN rampers to turn a 737 in 30 minutes vs. UAL needing 6 to turn a bus and taking an hour.

Legacy management will NEVER get that.

Truer words have never been spoken my friend.