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Cargo Pilot Pay At Top Of Industry

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BusterHymen

Giant
Joined
Dec 17, 2004
Posts
42
Cargo pilots move atop industry pay ladder
Some fliers from financially troubled passenger airlines applying at UPS


By DAVE HIRSCHMAN
The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
Published on: 01/04/05
In aviation's rigid hierarchy, air cargo pilots have always been a step below their passenger airline counterparts.

Air cargo pilots traditionally worked for smaller, less profitable companies, they primarily flew at night, and they earned less money.


TYPICAL SALARIES
Senior captains:
• UPS: $178,848
• FedEx: $174,048
• Southwest: $166,608
• Delta: $166,140
• American: $145,920

* Figures based on captains with 10 years' seniority who fly the minimum number of hours.
Source: airlinepilotpay.com



Not anymore.

As passenger airlines have borne the brunt of post-9/11 furloughs and pay cuts, cargo carriers UPS and FedEx have moved to the top of pilot pay scales, and their wings have gained new luster. UPS says it's been inundated with thousands of applications for 100 new pilot positions — and many of the pilots looking for jobs are passenger airline fliers.

"Historically, we've seen a lot of pilots go from cargo to passenger airlines," said Kit Darby, founder of AIR Inc., an Atlanta-based pilot career counseling firm. "Now, for the first time, it's going the other way. And it may be a permanent change. Cargo has become a more desirable place to be."

UPS and FedEx are growing international companies that dwarf U.S. airlines in revenue, profit and stock value. And they are less threatened by oil price spikes because fuel is a smaller percentage of their overall costs, and they usually pass on increases to customers through surcharges.

Cargo carriers have been growing for the last three years as legacy passenger airlines have suffered their worst setbacks ever.

"Boxes aren't afraid to get on an airplane because of terrorism," Darby said. "And they don't get sick from SARS."

'A solid company'

About 10 percent of U.S. airline pilots work for cargo companies, so they are a relatively small group. But UPS and FedEx avoided furloughs during the post-9/11 free fall, and UPS has resumed hiring as shipping demand has grown.

Each airline has its own seniority list that determines the types of aircraft pilots fly, their schedules and their routes. It's rare for pilots to move from one major airline to another because they would have to start at the bottom of the pecking order.

But UPS says it's getting applications from passenger airline fliers in search of stability and security.

"There has been a big culture shift," said Mark Giuffre, a spokesman for UPS Airlines in Louisville, Ky. "Pilots are seeking UPS out because it's a solid company that provides pensions and historically has given pilots the chance for rapid career advancement and international flying."

UPS and FedEx are growing fastest in Asia and are adding trans-Pacific routes as quickly as they can get them. They are also adding new planes. FedEx is the first cargo company to order the Airbus A380, which will be the world's largest commercial jet when it starts flying next year.

UPS and FedEx pilots say their jobs are far from perfect.

UPS pilots are seeking pay, retirement and work rule benefits in federally mediated contract talks that have already stretched a year beyond their amendable date, and the two sides are just beginning to address thorny pay and work rule issues. The National Mediation Board has set a goal of finishing negotiations by the end of the first quarter.

FedEx pilots ditched their independent union two years ago and have joined the Air Line Pilots Association, which promises greater resources and a harder line in negotiations.

Gritty side of life

Chuck Patterson, 48, a UPS MD-11 captain who used to fly passengers at Allegheny Airlines, says cargo pilots fly demanding day/night schedules and work in gritty, industrial areas that few airline passengers ever see.

"One thing I miss about passenger flying is seeing the same faces, the same gate agents, the same passengers on certain trips," he said. "We work on the freight side of the airport. It's dark, it's dirty, and it's not a pleasant place to be."

The jobs are attractive, however, because UPS and FedEx are financially sound and growing.

"Pilots are looking for long-term stability," Patterson says. "We don't know until the day we retire whether we made the right choice."

Brian Gaudet, spokesman for the Independent Pilots Association, which represents UPS fliers, says some passenger airline pilots still earn more than cargo fliers on a per-trip basis. But he says pilots widely recognize that air cargo companies have a better, more durable business model.

"They've realized companies can make far more money loading small packages and cargo on airplanes than filling them with passengers that require legroom, drinks and entertainment," he said.

Gaudet said UPS pilots are determined to negotiate a labor contract that "reflects their contributions to the company's success."

"It's a backhanded compliment to say that we're the highest-paid in the industry," he said.

"The passenger carriers have taken some big steps back. We're determined to step forward."
 
Well I wish someone would tell Connie how this works. GO KALITTA :rolleyes:
 
"We work on the freight side of the airport. It's dark, it's dirty, and it's not a pleasant place to be." -Chuck Patterson, 48

No kidding... Try Mobile Downtown (BFM) airport at night. I consider myself lucky if I have lights that aren't burnt out, out there. Not to mention, the pavement is so uneven you have to be careful so you don't strike your props. Oh well, sure beats the small plane comments. That always gets me when people make fun of small things!!!
 
active_herk said:
And yet I still have people ask me "when are you going to get a job with a 'real' airline?"

I flew part 135 frieght... scary people come out on the ramp at night.... gtitty, dirty...I like it... nice...

There are no "real" airlines anymore......

The UPS and FedEx guys have a tough road ahead....

Although Fred Smith said there was no comparison to UAL, DAL, AMR pay back when those pilots where the golden boys, I'm sure management is going to try to and use these "new" pax pay scales to keep Brown and Purple pilot rates down!

Also, pensions..... never more in danger at Brown and Purple.

Finally, cabatoge...... with Bush in a 2nd term office and nothing to lose and a Repub Congress combined with the camels' nose already under the tent (Alaska/Stevens), look to see a solid cabatoge foundation built that even the most effective pro-labor legislator can't reverse....

Pro Bush airline pilots...you voted for him...here it comes!! Capitalism and free market societies that we all love an adore will make US pilots too expensive.

We all love outsourcing... be prepared to be out sourced!
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
I flew part 135 frieght... scary people come out on the ramp at night.... gtitty, dirty...I like it... nice...

There are no "real" airlines anymore......

The UPS and FedEx guys have a tough road ahead....

Although Fred Smith said there was no comparison to UAL, DAL, AMR pay back when those pilots where the golden boys, I'm sure management is going to try to and use these "new" pax pay scales to keep Brown and Purple pilot rates down!

Also, pensions..... never more in danger at Brown and Purple.

Finally, cabatoge...... with Bush in a 2nd term office and nothing to lose and a Repub Congress combined with the camels' nose already under the tent (Alaska/Stevens), look to see a solid cabatoge foundation built that even the most effective pro-labor legislator can't reverse....

Pro Bush airline pilots...you voted for him...here it comes!! Capitalism and free market societies that we all love an adore will make US pilots too expensive.

We all love outsourcing... be prepared to be out sourced!

Well, we'll see. Two main things in our favor. First, heavy, heavy competition from the other major players will cause management to think twice before going down the path of service disruption over labor. With ever more low end cargo haulers out there being ALPA, struck work flying might be a little harder to get and keep your service up to par with the competition. It would be a big gamble at best. Second, while cabotage might be a dream for capitalists, with there being even tougher requirements for foreign pilots just coming here to train, much less fly commercial flights, there will be an awful lot of folks thinking twice about allowing that to happen over the "flyover country".

But, ya never know. Time will tell. I need about another 22 years worth.
 
AV8OR said:
Well, we'll see. Two main things in our favor. First, heavy, heavy competition from the other major players will cause management to think twice before going down the path of service disruption over labor. With ever more low end cargo haulers out there being ALPA, struck work flying might be a little harder to get and keep your service up to par with the competition. It would be a big gamble at best. Second, while cabotage might be a dream for capitalists, with there being even tougher requirements for foreign pilots just coming here to train, much less fly commercial flights, there will be an awful lot of folks thinking twice about allowing that to happen over the "flyover country".

But, ya never know. Time will tell. I need about another 22 years worth.

good reply and discussion.....
 
active_herk said:
And yet I still have people ask me "when are you going to get a job with a 'real' airline?"

No problem Herk. Just tell em you'd love to get a job as "commercial" airline pilot, but ya can't afford the pay cut and the schedule. ;^}
 
active_herk said:
And yet I still have people ask me "when are you going to get a job with a 'real' airline?"

I also chuckle when people ask me if I'm building time until I can carry passengers.
 
I think they ask all those questions because they wonder why on God's green earth would we load a plane in the rain and get soak and wet on a dark dreary ramp in the middle of night and fight all kinds of weather known to man... I have one answer to their question,... "chicks dig it!"
 
BusterHymen said:
Cargo pilots move atop industry pay ladder
Some fliers from financially troubled passenger airlines applying at UPS

By DAVE HIRSCHMAN


As passenger airlines have borne the brunt of post-9/11 furloughs and pay cuts, cargo carriers UPS and FedEx have moved to the top of pilot pay scales, and their wings have gained new luster.

The first thing you should do when you see Dave Hirschman in the by-line is go grab your 5-lb bag of salt. You may recognize him as the author of Hijacked, the book about the attempted hijack by Auburn Calloway of a FedEx DC-10. At the time of that event, he reported for The Commercial Appeal, the local Memphis rag. He is well-known as a "Friend of FedEx" which means friend of Fred Smith - - NOT a friend of pilots. It's no surprise that this article came up on the FedEx pilots' website. Fred wants us to think the public thinks we're overpaid.

You also should be suspicious when the primary sources for the story were airlinepilotpay.com and Kit Darby. (My sincerest apologies to airlinepilotpay.com for lumping you together.)


Now, the premise is that cargo pilots have "moved to the top" of the pay scales suffers from two major discrepancies. First, there is an assumption that UPS and FedEx are representatitve of cargo pilots in general. It fails to mention the Airbornes/DHLs, the Atlas/Polars, the Geminis, and the Mountain Air Cargos that are out there slugging it out just like they have been all along. Does the fact that a UPS pilot might make more than an American pilot support the claim that cargo pilots are atop the pay ladder? Hardly. On the whole, I believe you'll find that cargo pilots as a group still fare poorer than their passenger counterparts.

Second, his premise has cargo pilots' compensation "moving," when in fact cargo pilots' pay have not moved at all. UPS is working, I believe, in the third year of Contract Negotiations. FedEx is approaching a year of negotiations. Both groups have suffered from below-industry standard compensation for decades. Seeing those two carriers atop a compensation list and spouting that they've moved to the top is ludicrous. The only movement has been by passenger carriers, unfortunately in the wrong direction.

Fred Smith, and UPS, will no doubt attempt to use this hogwash to justify their attempts to withhold fair and equitable compensation. His promise of years ago to compensate FedEx pilots at the rate of "Delta plus a nickel" are now only possible after Delta suffered a 30+% pay cut. Incredible! I would hope that we are intelligent enough to see through the nonsense.

I'm sure Dave Hirschman got a big thank you from Fred.
 
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Excellent post Tony C! Couldn't agree more with your analysis.
 
Tony C,

I have patiently waited for you to post this thread. I agree with you thoughts, however, the FedEx pilots tried to compare equipment rates in the past and Fred said 'nope, different industry/scenario/flying. DAL/UAL rates do not apply.'

But now Fred can use the pilots arguement against them. Saying, 'you always liked the legacy carriers rates....so lets revist your logic"

I think your NC will have a difficult time. The best tactic is negotiate pay based upon company revenue/profit. Meanwhile using Freds arguement against him, that the legacy scales are not comparable. I'd love to observe some of the neg meetings....

[I always like the good cop, bad cop tactic....]

Combine this with sweet quality of life enhancements. Too many pilots want to see too many [high] dollar signs. There is more than just hourly rate. Go for a fair hourly rate and jack them up with soft time, and attractive work rules....

Finally, you've got to spend negotiating capital on cabatoge. And get your PAC in order, cause the real battle will be in Cap Hill. The cargo guys are primed to start thier own Cargo-PAC, with UPS and others, specifically to adress cabatoge.

Just don't strike in the 4Q, the public out cry will be deafening...:D

The New Airline Industry will be in cargo (as long as cabatoge doesn't kill it) and productivity (aka SWA).

Good Luck, we are all counting on you.
 
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Fred Smith was right and discussions of these industries being slightly alike is dangerous and without foundation.

The passenger airlines have come back because of, among other things, their market would not pay the wages. Cargo has maintained because their product has remained where it was.


That said, there is considerable difference between Fedex, UPS, Gemini, Atlas, Evergreen and others. They serve different markets. As example, FEDEX started as basically an airborne oriented enterprise while UPS did not. In fact, they flew only when forced to.

Evergreen and others take no market risk at all as far as the retail product and merely supply lift.

The point of this is lumping together all these entities because they fly aircraft is dangerous because assumptions get made and comparisons where there is no comparison at all.

Ultimately the market pays the tab and it has to be willing to. Flying checks as example could not stand expensive aircraft and crews.

Remember that most passenger airlines are just that. They haul passengers and how they do that counts. In the cargo business, the customer wants it at point A at a given time. They do not care at all how it gets there.
 
Publishers said:
Remember that most passenger airlines are just that. They haul passengers and how they do that counts. In the cargo business, the customer wants it at point A at a given time. They do not care at all how it gets there.

But they do care...how fast it gets there....

Good points....
 
Rez O. Lewshun said:
Also, pensions..... never more in danger at Brown and Purple.

Finally, cabatoge...... with Bush in a 2nd term office and nothing to lose and a Repub Congress combined with the camels' nose already under the tent (Alaska/Stevens), look to see a solid cabatoge foundation built that even the most effective pro-labor legislator can't reverse....

Pro Bush airline pilots...you voted for him...here it comes!! Capitalism and free market societies that we all love an adore will make US pilots too expensive.

We all love outsourcing... be prepared to be out sourced!

Pensions? I expect to see a cash balance plan at FedEx for new hires with the new ALPA contract. Present pilots wiill have the choice of the current plan, or the cash balance. Just like the rest of FedEx's non-union employees had last year.

Cabatoge....Best thing that could happen to the FedEx pilot group. The 727s up in Canada would then be flown by FedEx pilots. The A300B4 seen in both London and Paris flown by Air Contractors would be replaced by FedEx A300s.

FedEx doesn't like out sourcing of its ops. They do like total control. They out source where thy have to but would prefer not.
 
FoxHunter said:
Pensions? I expect to see a cash balance plan at FedEx for new hires with the new ALPA contract. Present pilots wiill have the choice of the current plan, or the cash balance. Just like the rest of FedEx's non-union employees had last year.

Cabatoge....Best thing that could happen to the FedEx pilot group. The 727s up in Canada would then be flown by FedEx pilots. The A300B4 seen in both London and Paris flown by Air Contractors would be replaced by FedEx A300s.

FedEx doesn't like out sourcing of its ops. They do like total control. They out source where thy have to but would prefer not.

They might like total control, but if they can pay a Sri Lankan pilot or Vietnamese pilot 30$ an hour vs 178$ an hour they might be willing to "ease up" on their position of total control.

Trust me, Cabotage or the "seventh freedom" of air commerce will not do you any good, it will be the end of your paycheck as you now know it.
 
I once asked a FedEx pilot, When did yall stop being freighters and started actilng like a airline," to which he replyed, "When our salaries went over 90K....."
 
I think if we looked at it, there is far more danger of us taking foreign jobs than the other way around. Look at all the United States pilots flying for IASCO and other crew companies, flying in the Middle East, etc.

The bottom line reason is our training and the numbers entering the profession. In the end, we have less to fear from cabotage than the other countries. We worry about all these jobs shifted overseas when the fact is I believe we probably have more shipped in than out.

What goes out are the high paid union type industrial jobs. They are more politically visible. You have to remember that there is a quid pro quo here and if we let them fly into here and we let there pilots fly here, we get to do it there as well. Most of the airlines are subsidized and would not last if unprotected.
 
freightdogfred said:
They might like total control, but if they can pay a Sri Lankan pilot or Vietnamese pilot 30$ an hour vs 178$ an hour they might be willing to "ease up" on their position of total control.

Trust me, Cabotage or the "seventh freedom" of air commerce will not do you any good, it will be the end of your paycheck as you now know it.

In 1995 a company named Cathay Pacific hired pilots outside their system seniority list to fly their freighters. Cathay used an organization named UPAS to recruit lower paid pilots. Most were American. UPAS was owned by another American organization called ALPA.

Cabotoge, for FedEx pilots, would be a great step forward. Not the party line at ALPA, but great for us. Sorry I don't trust you because you have no idea.:)
 
I disagree.....

Cabatoge is a threat, because you are assuming that if cabatoge is opened up in the US, therre will be agreements with other countries to fly in thier countries.... With 80% of the air commerce in the US, we have too much too offer and the rest of the world, too little....

I use the martime industry....

How many US Ship captains are there? How many US registered ships are there?

The terrorist threat may limit foriegn pilots for a while....

Publishers?
 
Acmi

Publisher,

When you state the companies like Atlas, Evergreen and the like do not take any risk by not holding themselves out into the retail market. These companies have taken note of those companies that have held themselves out, like Airborne, Purolator, DHL, etc and have seen them clobbered by FEDEX and UPS. These companies understand the factors of economy of scale and market share. And realize that they can not compete with FEDEX or UPS. Instead they hold themselves out in a different market the ACMI market where the risks can be as great or greater than the retail market. These companies have their own markets which they kep trying to expand. Sometimes making it. Sometimes not.
 
What about that there residency requirement to haul postal freight?

Though any law is subject to be overturned....
 
Thank you Rick-- I was head of sales and marketing at EIA in the late 80's/ I know the difference and it is one between retail and capital risk where you at least have the asset. Unlike Airborne for example, they do not worry about ground delivery and all the other aspects of the retail business.

They make their money by investing in the iron and having someone else pay them to sub service.

My point was merely that these are different businesses and the same rules or nature of business need to be addressed differently.
 
FoxHunter said:
In 1995 a company named Cathay Pacific hired pilots outside their system seniority list to fly their freighters. Cathay used an organization named UPAS to recruit lower paid pilots. Most were American. UPAS was owned by another American organization called ALPA.

Cabotoge, for FedEx pilots, would be a great step forward. Not the party line at ALPA, but great for us. Sorry I don't trust you because you have no idea.:)

I don't have a idea?? Methinks you are the one who is clueless....Even your fearless leader Duane Woerth-less has recognized the danger of US flying being outsourced. The IPA (Do an Internet search to figure out who THEY are) have already seen a Chinese airline flying their freight thru ANC to their hub, under the cover of darkness.

My job flying freight at an ALPA airline has already been outsourced, so I don't really give a $hit.
 
freightdogfred said:
I don't have a idea?? Methinks you are the one who is clueless....Even your fearless leader Duane Woerth-less has recognized the danger of US flying being outsourced. The IPA (Do an Internet search to figure out who THEY are) have already seen a Chinese airline flying their freight thru ANC to their hub, under the cover of darkness.

My job flying freight at an ALPA airline has already been outsourced, so I don't really give a $hit.

Actually China airlines flies ANC-BNA carrying Dell computers. The deal was set up by UPS Supply Chain Solutions. You are incorrect in stating that China airlines flies to one of our "hubs".

Our next negotiation session will deal with scope issues. You can be sure that this specific issue and others ( Menlo ) will be brought up.
 
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As pointed out in an earlier thread about the China Airlnes flights, Supply Chain Solutions serves as an arranger and the flights are really not UPS "product".

At Evergreen many years ago, Sun Microsystems did the same thing and that flight was arranged through a freight forwarder in SFO.

One thing that needs to be realized is that if you take the FEDEX overnight package and convert it to aircraft weight, you have very high yield flights.

At Menlo and UPS, much of the freight is low yield heavy freight at $.50lb or less.
 
Hey Av8or,
Who told you those foreign pilots are not well trained?
I've been flying in USA now for 5 years there is no such an easiest place to fly than here what that means?
It means pilots here have no experience or skills to fly anywhere else.
I've been flying with people here that has no clue about what a really bad wheater is and you flying into it.
I've also been flying with a lot of poeple who never even heard about VDF and when I explain them they get so surprise such a thing exist and still a form of navigation in several parts of the globe.
So Rez O is right and people like me with more than just an american citizenship will have good times getting a job on this new cabotage deal than americans like you that still think war is nice let's kick some a..
Busch is an i.... and he is only taking care of his retirement he doesn't even care about the who was responsible for the 9/11, yep been laden not only still at large as also he is in Saudi Arabia and neither Bush or the arabian shakes has interest in arrest him. If you doubt me just call his wife in Saudi arabia her phone is public as is also his sons and family whereabouts.
Impeach Busch is the only wise decision.
 
Ligeirinho said:
Hey Av8or,
Who told you those foreign pilots are not well trained?
I've been flying in USA now for 5 years there is no such an easiest place to fly than here what that means?
It means pilots here have no experience or skills to fly anywhere else.
I've been flying with people here that has no clue about what a really bad wheater is and you flying into it.
I've also been flying with a lot of poeple who never even heardaboutVDF and when I explain them they get so surprise such a thingexist andstill a form of navigation in several parts of the globe.
So Rez O is right and people like me with more than just anamericancitizenship will have good times getting a job on this newcabotagedeal than americans like you that still think war is nice let'skicksome a..
Busch is an i.... and he is only taking care of his retirementhedoesn't even care about the who was responsible for the 9/11, yepbeenladen not only still at large as also he is in Saudi Arabia andneitherBush or the arabian shakes has interest in arrest him. If youdoubt mejust call his wife in Saudi arabia her phone is public as isalso hissons and family whereabouts.
Impeach Busch is the only wise decision.

You've been watching to many Michael Moore movies.
You should kiss the ground every day for having the privilege to workin the U.S. And by the way, you need to invest in a dictionary.
 
Captain Morgan said:
I think they ask all those questions because they wonder why on God's green earth would we load a plane in the rain and get soak and wet on a dark dreary ramp in the middle of night and fight all kinds of weather known to man... I have one answer to their question,... "chicks dig it!"

No they don't bro, I've never gotten any tail for saying "hey baby, I'm a freight dog." :D

It's a nice thought tho.
 

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