capt is late wants to skip checklist wwyd
- Thread starter fulcrum
- Start date
Victor Meldrew
I dont bloody believe it!
- Joined
- Jul 7, 2005
- Posts
- 258
- Total Time
- Enough
Insist on doing the checklist! Should anything happen then there is at least a record of it on the CVR. There is no excuse for skipping the checklist. They say that there are 7 factors leading up to an incident / accident, the Captain being late and not running the checklist could well be at least the first 2.
i had this happen to me recently and when I insisted and he refused, I just read it aloud with me doing both the challenge and response. That way it was covered and recorded (don't want to embarrass the family if I am killed!) and embarrassed the hell out of the captain. what's he going to do, go tell the chief pilot I didn't follow his orders??? he was a bit mad though!!
FurloughedAgain
Cabin Heating & Air Tech.
- Joined
- Jun 5, 2002
- Posts
- 1,657
- Total Time
- 10000+
Interesting thing about airplanes certified for a two-pilot crew.
They need two pilots to fly them.
If one pilot gets up, takes his (or her) flight bag, and walks up the jetway -- the airplane becomes a building with wheels.
Usually about the time you pull your bag out of the well and say, "I'll call scheduling to get you a new F/O" the Captain realizes the error in his or her ways.
They need two pilots to fly them.
If one pilot gets up, takes his (or her) flight bag, and walks up the jetway -- the airplane becomes a building with wheels.
Usually about the time you pull your bag out of the well and say, "I'll call scheduling to get you a new F/O" the Captain realizes the error in his or her ways.
FlamingFUPA
Cattywompus Like WHOA
- Joined
- Jun 4, 2005
- Posts
- 191
- Total Time
- 3.1415
^^^^^^^^
yeah becuase that sets up a even better cockpit environment now that you have shown the capt how big your pen0r is
yeah becuase that sets up a even better cockpit environment now that you have shown the capt how big your pen0r is
LowlyPropCapt
PBR For Life, and Beyond!
- Joined
- Jul 14, 2005
- Posts
- 1,256
- Total Time
- 8000+
How long does it take to do a checklist? If your late you're late... just do it.
Unless of course its the go home leg... Just kidding!
Unless of course its the go home leg... Just kidding!
flatspin7
TOGA!!!! TOGA!!!
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2004
- Posts
- 524
- Total Time
- 2 +1
You don't have to play War with a Capt who doesnt want to run a check list... If he is worried about getting a late out time there is nothing in our book (XJT) that says you have to run the check list before you block out.
I had a few guys rushed and once they get their out time (read getting paid) 99.9% of guys will take the time to do things right. Money is a great motivator. If not (they call for the through stop vs. the full receiving check list) I just run the whole thing.
I had a few guys rushed and once they get their out time (read getting paid) 99.9% of guys will take the time to do things right. Money is a great motivator. If not (they call for the through stop vs. the full receiving check list) I just run the whole thing.
P-Dawg_QX
Registered Offender
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2005
- Posts
- 257
- Total Time
- 3000+
Did the same thing a few weeks ago. Capt wanted to skip the originating checklist (takes a mere 15 seconds to complete!!) and go straight to the before start, so I just start reading the originating. He did respond to it, and after we were all finished, I think he realized how dumb it was to make such a fuss over it. It took more time to argue over doing the checklist than it took to just read it.B36 said:
ATTCS
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jan 30, 2002
- Posts
- 89
- Total Time
- 16000
I'm told I come under the catagory of an 'old crusty captain'. I've run late, had a newhire FO, and we ran the entire checklist. Only takes a few seconds and we both had the mental attitude that everything was accomplished albeit a bit rushed. I looked at it with the attitude that she had just finished training and was not entirely comfortable with the aircraft and procedures. Just made things easier. She had done a lot before I got there and briefed me as I was building my nest. As she was briefing me I did my flow & then into the checklists. First time we had met and it told me volumes about her abilities so I adjusted to that. For a newhire with her experience she had done a great job. Another time with an experienced FO he had done almost everything and we had flown together before and so shortened things a bit. Reality dictates what you would feel comfortable with.
As far as what they would want in a interview? Probably that you would want to do the whole thing. What would you do on line? Maybe not a good idea to say...
As far as what they would want in a interview? Probably that you would want to do the whole thing. What would you do on line? Maybe not a good idea to say...
skiddriver
Well-known member
- Joined
- Nov 27, 2001
- Posts
- 405
- Total Time
- 5000+
The answer to any of the "WWYD if the Capt wants to break preflight rules" questions is:
1) Politely remind the Capt of the requirement.
2) Politely insist that you won't proceed with the flight unless the requirement is met (checklist followed, CVR circuit breaker in, bottle to throttle rule followed).
3) Depart the aircraft and call pro standards if necessary, after informing the dispatcher that the flight is delayed.
In flight issues require a little more finesse, because you aren't going to strap on the chute just because the Capt won't run the checklist.
1) Politely remind the Capt of the requirement.
2) Ensure the requirement is met to the best of your ability without endangering the flight (i.e. run both sides of the checklist time permitting).
3) Ensure the remainder of the flight is conducted as safely as possible.
3) Upon arrival, call pro standards if necessary.
These type questions are really a way for the interviewer to ascertain if you have the strength of character to respectfully challenge a bad command decision, and to ensure that you will take appropriate action to follow company policy and act as a barrier to an accident. Your answer should make plain that you will respect the Capt's position, while ensuring passenger and crew safety. You need to communicate that you won't begin a flight until the matter is properly resolved, and if the flight is in progress, that you will take appropriate action to ensure that it ends safely. Stress your adherence to company policy, and your use of good CRM procedures to resolve conflict.
1) Politely remind the Capt of the requirement.
2) Politely insist that you won't proceed with the flight unless the requirement is met (checklist followed, CVR circuit breaker in, bottle to throttle rule followed).
3) Depart the aircraft and call pro standards if necessary, after informing the dispatcher that the flight is delayed.
In flight issues require a little more finesse, because you aren't going to strap on the chute just because the Capt won't run the checklist.
1) Politely remind the Capt of the requirement.
2) Ensure the requirement is met to the best of your ability without endangering the flight (i.e. run both sides of the checklist time permitting).
3) Ensure the remainder of the flight is conducted as safely as possible.
3) Upon arrival, call pro standards if necessary.
These type questions are really a way for the interviewer to ascertain if you have the strength of character to respectfully challenge a bad command decision, and to ensure that you will take appropriate action to follow company policy and act as a barrier to an accident. Your answer should make plain that you will respect the Capt's position, while ensuring passenger and crew safety. You need to communicate that you won't begin a flight until the matter is properly resolved, and if the flight is in progress, that you will take appropriate action to ensure that it ends safely. Stress your adherence to company policy, and your use of good CRM procedures to resolve conflict.
WateryGrave
Blue Koolaid Drinker
- Joined
- Apr 28, 2005
- Posts
- 286
- Total Time
- 12K+
??????
Whats a checklist?
Whats a checklist?
- Joined
- Dec 25, 2004
- Posts
- 1,576
- Total Time
- 1
That's an easy question! RUN THE CHECKLIST!fulcrum said:
Be very VERY direct with your answers! K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid
Example: Do you have a watch?
Answer: YES (don't give the time, he/she didn't ask for it)
Good Luck!
Simon Says
New Airbus Regional Jet
- Joined
- Dec 19, 2001
- Posts
- 1,036
- Total Time
- 11000
You guys are way too anal. If the Captain doesn't want to run the checklist and the FO does........All the FO's have to say is "Hey Captain, I just feel more comfortable running the checklist if that is cool with you" I don't know one captain that would refuse.
All you FO's that want to start a pissing match with your boss aka the captain.....You will lose everytime. You might win a few battles, but you will definatley lose the war.
All you FO's that want to start a pissing match with your boss aka the captain.....You will lose everytime. You might win a few battles, but you will definatley lose the war.
Irish Pilot
What An Industry
- Joined
- Feb 22, 2005
- Posts
- 186
- Total Time
- Enough
I would absolutely insist as well.
If you are in an airplane with a pilot who for whatever reason doesnt seem to want to do things the right way be proud to be the guy to slow things down to make sure they get done the right way....thats what you are trained and paid to do.
Besides....even if the captain gets pissed what is he going to do? Even if he does get pissed odds are he is going to realize later that he was being foolish and will respect you for being upfront and steady. Ive never truly respected an FO or Captain that I have flown with that was a pushover (Im not talking about the non-confrontational guys...just the guys who are so unsure of themselves or whats going on that they will go with whatever you say.) I always try to look at it like a 2 pilot crew, not a captain and an FO. Odds are you both deserve to be there so work as a team not as two differently ranked crew members.
There are times when we have opportunities to step forward and make the change in the right direction or to go along with the flow for whatever reason. That defines the difference between being a leader and a follower.
I guess the point here is take pride in your job. Seems like thats almost all we have left these days.
Ill get off the box now lol.
If you are in an airplane with a pilot who for whatever reason doesnt seem to want to do things the right way be proud to be the guy to slow things down to make sure they get done the right way....thats what you are trained and paid to do.
Besides....even if the captain gets pissed what is he going to do? Even if he does get pissed odds are he is going to realize later that he was being foolish and will respect you for being upfront and steady. Ive never truly respected an FO or Captain that I have flown with that was a pushover (Im not talking about the non-confrontational guys...just the guys who are so unsure of themselves or whats going on that they will go with whatever you say.) I always try to look at it like a 2 pilot crew, not a captain and an FO. Odds are you both deserve to be there so work as a team not as two differently ranked crew members.
There are times when we have opportunities to step forward and make the change in the right direction or to go along with the flow for whatever reason. That defines the difference between being a leader and a follower.
I guess the point here is take pride in your job. Seems like thats almost all we have left these days.
Ill get off the box now lol.
Apparently you've never been an Allegheny FO based in ABE. After you make this statement, "Hey Captain, I just feel more comfortable running the checklist if that is cool with you", the checklist physically gets thrown out of the cockpit. I hear the ALPA charm school uses this as an example.Simon Says said:
in all seriousness I think Skiddriver has the best "interview" response.
Alittle off the subject but what do you guys think of this:
i rent a 152 several times per month. After a regular preflight, I hop in an start it up but use the checklist printed in the right door frame. It works for me but should I use the one we all used as students?
I've got to say that I too am considered by some to be "crusty". However, I would never consider "shortening things a bit". From my viewpoint, you're setting yourself up for a fall when you take this course of inaction. If you're in the courtroom already and trying to defend your actions, you'll hang for sure. If you're out on the line, you've now interrupted the normal order and flow of events in the flight deck, and are bound to feel the repercussions sometime down the road. Not to mention the fact that it's an unprofessional way to manage the flight deck (my opinion only). Our employers pay us to perform very specific tasks at very specific times and we are expected to adhere to these procedures, no matter what time the clock says it is.
dhc8fo
Well-known member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2001
- Posts
- 402
- Total Time
- lots
Have this issue many many times where I work....shall not say where (although it isn't THAT tough to narrow it down).
I do one of a few things. If I am on the plane waiting for the CA, I do the originating checklist myself since I know the CA will be rushed.
If we show up at the plane together, I just start into it when we are settled if the CA hasn't asked for it or says to skip it. They usually just go with it.
At the very least, I do it silently myself in those few situations where the CA is a total absolute turd and doesn't want to comply.
Cover YOUR ass. Who cares if the CA doesn't want it. It is a requirement, so do it. Most of the time these guys don't become your best buddies anyway. Also, when you are in a more normal circumstance, they will probably respect you or trust you more as an FO since you hold your own. And keep in mind that if it ever boiled down to you and the CA sitting in front of the chief pilot or whoever, who is in the wrong???
I do one of a few things. If I am on the plane waiting for the CA, I do the originating checklist myself since I know the CA will be rushed.
If we show up at the plane together, I just start into it when we are settled if the CA hasn't asked for it or says to skip it. They usually just go with it.
At the very least, I do it silently myself in those few situations where the CA is a total absolute turd and doesn't want to comply.
Cover YOUR ass. Who cares if the CA doesn't want it. It is a requirement, so do it. Most of the time these guys don't become your best buddies anyway. Also, when you are in a more normal circumstance, they will probably respect you or trust you more as an FO since you hold your own. And keep in mind that if it ever boiled down to you and the CA sitting in front of the chief pilot or whoever, who is in the wrong???