Capitol question

[nitefr8dog]

Factual????? That ATI pilots are willing to take less??? Sounds like you need to get your facts straight... IMHO

See PM

 

[727Niteflyer]

1 abx guy

 

[nitefr8dog]

1 abx guy

Just what the 1224 message board said. Some of the guys who had been contacted planned on going. Maybe after they saw the new contract numbers they decided unemployment looked better?

 

[727Niteflyer]

From my understanding they all turned down the interview

 

[b707guy]

In talking with some of the Cappy guys in the hub, it seems Cappy has a training contract with some dollar signs attached. This is not addressed in the 1224 side letter. So I guess there's an unanswered question if everyone's mind as to whether it should apply in this case. I wouldn't blame anyone for not taking a job when a training contract is involved, if that is in fact what's behind the lack of takers from ABX. So, Agreenfo, you may very well have a shot at a job with Cappy, since it seems they will in fact be hiring off the street! Meanwhile, everyone displaced from ABX that I've met and flown with here at ATI seems to be quite happy and great to work with.

 

[AgreenFO]

I hope that is the case. Still no call

 

[airspeedsalive]

Same here.

 

[Box-Hauler]

I believe that the lack of ABX takers was due to the lack of pay at CCI. That was my reason for not sending in a resume, along with a lot of other unknowns about training contract, vacation accrual......... but mostly the pay.....

As a side not I would happily take a recall to ATI, love the 8, bet it is even better with the -70.........


Good luck to those who get a call for Cappi.

 

[727Niteflyer]

lots of abx guys excepted the job or interview until they found out cappy wasnt honoring any deals supposedly signed between teamsters and atsg. teamsters told everyone not to take the job or interview until they sort the mess out. We hired 19 people in this class, 1 abx pilot needed a job bad. rest are a mix.

 

[nitefr8dog]

lots of abx guys excepted the job or interview until they found out cappy wasnt honoring any deals supposedly signed between teamsters and atsg. teamsters told everyone not to take the job or interview until they sort the mess out. We hired 19 people in this class, 1 abx pilot needed a job bad. rest are a mix.

Teamsters 1224 has not advised anyone NOT to take the class. Capitol just like ATI have little choice in honoring the side letter with ATSG. ATSG has been paying the difference for the pilots that went to ATI. Would be difficult to side step the agreement at Capitol with the precedence set. Again Teamsters has not been advising any of the furloughed pilots against hiring at Capitol other than it is a crummy place to work pay and working rules wise.

 

[727Niteflyer]

thats not what the guys who turned down the interview said

 

[nitefr8dog]

thats not what the guys who turned down the interview said

He lied, 1224 has not advised anyone to turn down work.

 

[l8fr82hub]

Capitol just like ATI have little choice in honoring the side letter with ATSG.

Yes, ATI and Capital contracts are completely overruled by ABX's side letter (repeat 10 times)

 

[laserman2431]

Yes, ATI and Capital contracts are completely overruled by ABX's side letter (repeat 10 times)

I might be missing something. How does the ABX agreement effect the Capital CBA? Does the Capital pilot's CBA have anything to do with who gets hired?

 

[dsee8driver]

Yes, ATI and Capital contracts are completely overruled by ABX's side letter (repeat 10 times)

These are the kind of statements that drive us crazy. Capi has a training contract on their CBA. Whether it applies to ABX or not will be for a court to decide. The contract is for all new employees an ABX guy while not a new ATSG employee is still a newhire for ATI and Capi. ATI does not have a training contract. All our CBA rules and conditions STILL apply to the ABX dude. He gets what a new hire gets for pay and vacation while ATSG makes up for the rest of whatever he is entitled to according to his years of service.
The only thing the letter says is that we have to recall the ABX folks before hiring of the street. They must stay at ATI for a minimum of 2 years.

 

[727Niteflyer]

cappy has no intention of hiring anyone that is going to be paid more than another pilot already here.

 

[Box-Hauler]

cappy has no intention of hiring anyone that is going to be paid more than another pilot already here.

Isn't the VP/DO an Ex-ABX chief Pilot. If so why would he go against his boss JH, and not hire ABX pilots.

Besides CCI intentions have no bearing on if an ABX pilot gets a job. They fall under the ATSG umbrella, and as such Uncle Joe (the big boss) signed an agreement with ABX. The agreement said if any ATSG company hires anyone they must offer it to an ABX furloughed pilot before it goes to "off the street" pilots.

Also a recalled ABX guy that goes to CCI would not make "more" than someone already there they would make the same amount of pay as someone at CCI based on years of service to Uncle Joe. So most ABX guys would make around the 8 to 12 year pay scale, depending on years of service to ATSG.

 

[Vegas_727God]

So why did the one guy that came to capitol cargo resign his number at ABX? It has been said that on the local 1224 board he's being called a, dare I say it, "scab". So why did he do that?

Looks like the ATSG/ABX "recall" letter wasn't near as bullet proof as once thought. Poor ATI, you guys have a ton of those guys by now. If I were a regular ATI line pilot I would sure be mad knowing those new ABX pilots are getting an extra check from ATSG.

 

[727Niteflyer]

wow that was actually sort of well said, it does sum up the situation though. according to JH he never signed anything close to what 1224 is saying. maybe something on 1224 side of the house has been overexagerated

 

[LarryinTN]

It has been said that on the local 1224 board he's being called a, dare I say it, "scab".

There hasn't been any discussion about anyone excepting the CCI recall on the 1224 board.

 

[LarryinTN]

according to JH he never signed anything close to what 1224 is saying. maybe something on 1224 side of the house has been overexagerated

Two disputes. Does the ATSG supplement pay start on the first day of class or the first day off training pay (your P.C. at ATI) and does your ABX seniority carry over to vacation accrual as well as pay.

The first class of recalls to ATI are receiving their ATSG suppliment pay.

 

[Box-Hauler]

If I were a regular ATI line pilot I would sure be mad knowing those new ABX pilots are getting an extra check from ATSG.

Vegas, this is our problem as pilots goes. You state that you would be upset someone is getting paid "extra" from ATSG. Why begrudge someone extra pay. It did not come out of your pocket, it did not come out of your employers pocket so that there is a smaller pie for you or your pilot group. Why not use this as a precedent to get this for your pilot group. If JH signed off on it once he should not have a problem doing it again.

I am a proponent of a single seniority list for all pilots, but this is a pipe dream, so my next dream is a single list under any holding company. Stop the whip-sawing, start helping other pilots. When one group wins we all win. Stop whoring ourselves out just so we can fly. Be professionals (you don't see Doctors/Lawyers undercutting each other just to get a better operating room or law library the way a pilot will whore himself out for a bigger/better plane.)

As for an ex ABX guy resigning his seniority and being called names on the ABX board, I could find no evidence of this, sounds like someone is trying to stir the pot.......

 

[Vegas_727God]

I only "begrudge" someone making more money when their making more money circumvents my airline's CBA. How would you like it if I came over to ABX with 14 years seniority at ATI or CCIA? I feel the shoe would surely be on the different foot at that point.

Here's a challenge, can any of you ABX'ers produce an actual signed copy of the agreement? Rumor around the basement in the Clarion at Toledo says there is none to be found with Hete's signature on it. Just Curious.

Also, aren't you ATI guys worried about single carrier status? If I were you I would be looking into it. Looks to me like this is the first push for ABX to get your jobs, so you would be wise to look out. Another good question is how did CCIA keep ABX guys off their property when ATI now has many on theirs?

 

[LarryinTN]

I only "begrudge" someone making more money when their making more money circumvents my airline's CBA.

No CBAs are being circumvented. ATI is paying the 1st year CBA rates to the ABX furloughees. ABX is separately paying the difference between ATI 1st year and ATI 12th year rates per the contract between local 1224 and ABX. CCI would be the same.

How would you like it if I came over to ABX with 14 years seniority at ATI or CCIA?

That was the intent when 1224 negotiated it. The goal is to have it so that any ATSG-airline furloughee gets the same recall rights and longevity protection at any other ATSG-airline that is hiring. The idea is to protect everybody.

Also, aren't you ATI guys worried about single carrier status? If I were you I would be looking into it. Looks to me like this is the first push for ABX to get your jobs, so you would be wise to look out.

Could you explain what you're envisioning? I don't see how "we" could "take over" ATI. We're at the bottom of their seniority list.

I've been through a successful single-carrier petition before. It took years and only results in a single representational organization. It doesn't force the merger of the airlines or seniority. If that ever happened, and nobody's filed one, it would result in a representational election where we'd all choose a single union to represent all three pilot groups. The airlines, and seniority lists, would remain separate unless Hete decided that he wanted to merge them.

Another good question is how did CCIA keep ABX guys off their property when ATI now has many on theirs?

I received the letter from CCI but took the class at ATI instead. I'm not aware of any ABX guys accepting the CCI recall. Someone in the thread said that one did but I haven't heard it elsewhere or seen a name. My guess is that the low-pay and uncertainty about the training contract might have discouraged some.

The folks at ATI seem quite happy to have us here. The H.R. folks, chief pilot, CEO, class room instructor, and sim instructors have all said that they're glad to have us and our experience. They're very happy with how the first group did through training.

 

[Box-Hauler]

I only "begrudge" someone making more money when their making more money circumvents my airline's CBA. How would you like it if I came over to ABX with 14 years seniority at ATI or CCIA? I feel the shoe would surely be on the different foot at that point.

Vegas, again how is my being paid "extra" by ATSG circumventing your CBA. I am not able to outbid anyone, I cannot upgrade quicker thank anyone. Again I don't see the "threat" you seem to be afraid of. I said this earlier. If this is such an awesome deal for ABX pilots why dint you put it in your CBA. All this agreement does is keep ABX pilots flying for an ATSG company. As for my feeling of you coming over to ABX with 14 yr of seniority (that will not harm me at all) is a non threat and I welcome you. I would be glad to have you, or anyone for that matter. It would mean that my company is expanding and also that my company could offer employment to a fellow ATSG pilot who would have been out of a job. The only way I would be upset is that it would take longer to get my "buddies" on at my airline.

Here's a challenge, can any of you ABX'ers produce an actual signed copy of the agreement? Rumor around the basement in the Clarion at Toledo says there is none to be found with Hete's signature on it. Just Curious.

No I cannot, of course I also have not seen a signed copy of our current contract, so I guess by using your arguemnt I am not under a CBA and this is a moot point.....

 

[LarryinTN]

Here's the text of the agreement. It is signed by Joe Hete and Joe Muckle.

------------------------------------------------------------
LETTER #34: RECALL TO AIR TRANSPORT SERVICES GROUP CARRIERS

November 4, 2009

Captain Joe Muckle, President
Teamsters Local 1224
2754 Old State Route 73
Wilmington, OH 45177

Dear Captain Muckle:

Air Transport Services Group and its successors (ATSG) shall secure the commitment from each air carrier within its corporate structure, presently Capital Cargo, Inc. and ATI, Inc., and from any other airline that may come within its corporate structure in the future, that in lieu of new hires, the carriers shall recall crewmembers who occupy a position on the ABX Air, Inc. Crewmember Seniority List, including Professional Flight Engineers (Professional Flight Engineers can be recalled only to PFE positions). The recall shall be in order of seniority (Date of Hire), and the recall procedure shall be that as set forth in the collective bargaining agreement between Airline Professionals Association, Teamsters Local 1224 and ABX Air, Inc. (“ABX”), except that bypassing a recall to another ATSG carrier shall not be considered a refusal under Article 7(G).

ABX crewmembers who are recalled under this Letter of Agreement shall maintain their years of longevity accrued at ABX for purposes of pay and benefits at the other ATSG carrier. Their relative seniority with the carrier to which they are recalled shall start at the bottom of that carrier’s crewmember seniority list.

ABX crewmembers who are recalled under the provisions of this Letter of Agreement shall retain their recall rights to ABX, except that such crewmembers shall not be eligible for recall to ABX for a period of two years from the date of recall to another ATSG carrier. Additionally, any recalled crewmember who successfully upgrades either in position or equipment will be subject to any seat or equipment freeze that applies at that carrier and will not be eligible to transfer back to ABX Air, Inc. until the end of that freeze.

Sincerely,

Agreed to and accepted this 4th day of November 2009:


Joe Hete
CEO
ATSG


Captain Joe Muckle
President
Teamsters Local 1224

 

[Vegas_727God]

I can read the text all day long, but a signed copy still eludes me. Text is just that without a signature.

Keep telling yourself all that guys, maybe one day you will believe it. Just remember that ASTAR lost sight of what was going on around them when they were trying their best to sink ABX, maybe it would be wise to remember the lessons of the past.

 

[LarryinTN]

Vegas,

For whom do you fly? CCIA or Astar?

 

[nitefr8dog]

These are the kind of statements that drive us crazy. Capi has a training contract on their CBA. Whether it applies to ABX or not will be for a court to decide. The contract is for all new employees an ABX guy while not a new ATSG employee is still a newhire for ATI and Capi. ATI does not have a training contract. All our CBA rules and conditions STILL apply to the ABX dude. He gets what a new hire gets for pay and vacation while ATSG makes up for the rest of whatever he is entitled to according to his years of service.
The only thing the letter says is that we have to recall the ABX folks before hiring of the street. They must stay at ATI for a minimum of 2 years.

I think that comment was supposed to be sarcastic. And you are correct ATI and Capitol have to offer employment to the ABX crews first.... if no takers then they can hire off the street. So far that appears to be happening in both scenarios.Congrats to everyone getting hired.

 

[abxflyr1]

I only "begrudge" someone making more money when their making more money circumvents my airline's CBA. How would you like it if I came over to ABX with 14 years seniority at ATI or CCIA? I feel the shoe would surely be on the different foot at that point.

That horse has been beat to death here. It is clear to most everyone that ATSG subs are paying their individual contract wages (i.e. 1st year) and anything else is that 1224 (or any other company..) has in their agreements are not germane to the subject.

Here's a challenge, can any of you ABX'ers produce an actual signed copy of the agreement? Rumor around the basement in the Clarion at Toledo says there is none to be found with Hete's signature on it. Just Curious.

Contracts, LOA, and signature pages are not significant to this forum. Yes, I have actually seen (and have a copy of) the side letter that is posted here in its working document. The individual page is not TA'd by Hete, nor are any others, nor is CCI's or ATI's, they are all done by the respective representative of the particular carrier. If you need to see a copy of a unions signature pages, working notes and documents, etc....then you need to consider getting a real life. Clearly individuals are willing to share their insights and company information in a public forum, figure out on your own if the documents/CBAs/LOA are genuine or not.

Also, aren't you ATI guys worried about single carrier status? If I were you I would be looking into it. Looks to me like this is the first push for ABX to get your jobs, so you would be wise to look out. Another good question is how did CCIA keep ABX guys off their property when ATI now has many on theirs?

All 3 ATSG subs should, and I believe are, watching closely the status of the requirements for a single carrier petition. IMO, ATSG is carefully maneuvering to avoid such an item for various reasons. Yes, it does cost them, as a whole, more dollars and duplicates to operate. Pros/cons on each side of the house. CCIA did not "keep" ABX furloughees off of their property, in fact, just the opposite. Position(s) (FO/SO) have been offered to ABX'ers in a similar fashion to ATI. It is an individuals decision whether or not they choose to take advantage of the offer. As said before, both ATI and CCI have opened their resume' windows (in the recent past) to collect applications should they not receive enough interest to fill their requirements thru the ABX offering.