Capitol question

[b707guy]

The ATI pilots have indicated they are willing to work for less to get more aircraft, looking at the pay I believe that is true.

Yeah, we've all been sitting on our asses screaming at the top of our lungs for ATSG to bring any and all 767s over to us because we'll fly them for less. I've done this one time in my history at here on FI - YOU ARE A TOOL! OK, now it's twice.

 

[dsee8driver]

CCI has 2 757's no plans for any more according to the recent ATSG 10K report. ATI has not indicated any plans to park DC8'S. ATI getting additional 767's is the most likely scenario. The ATI pilots have indicated they are willing to work for less to get more aircraft, looking at the pay I believe that is true.

I hate to shoot the messenger but when the messenger is listening to the 1224 tools you have to wonder. Come on nitefr8 you should know better then making such comment or at least talk to your buddies that got recently hired at ATI.
We are getting more 76 with the payscales that have been in place for almost 10 years. Our nego team has not indicated to us or anyone let alone the dopes at 1224 that we would accept a concesionary contract. If anything we would probably hold out for at least what you guys got and we are homebased.

I think payscale wise we are currently not too far off from what you guys have if you try to factor in that we are homebased which does have a value.

 

[OrionFE]

Keep the -8 flying. Love seeing it up in Thule.......

 

[nitefr8dog]

I hate to shoot the messenger but when the messenger is listening to the 1224 tools you have to wonder. Come on nitefr8 you should know better then making such comment or at least talk to your buddies that got recently hired at ATI.
We are getting more 76 with the payscales that have been in place for almost 10 years. Our nego team has not indicated to us or anyone let alone the dopes at 1224 that we would accept a concesionary contract. If anything we would probably hold out for at least what you guys got and we are homebased.

I think payscale wise we are currently not too far off from what you guys have if you try to factor in that we are homebased which does have a value.

You are right, you will match ABX pay (+30K)...keep home basing ( 2 500 dollar round trip tickets per month = 12K) and get all the new 767's! WPF. Here is how it will really happen, " we would love to pay you more but with high cost of operating DC8's ( 4 engine, 3 man, D checks about 4 times the cost of the 767).. we just cannot afford to pay any more and continue the home basing, increased medical costs... etc.. etc,... I might be wrong but just look at what Cappy just settled for! The Tea leaves say almost no raise and the 767's are yours. Or a modest pay raise and Cappy gets them. Let the whipsawing begin!

 

[dsee8driver]

You are right, you will match ABX pay (+30K)...keep home basing ( 2 500 dollar round trip tickets per month = 12K) and get all the new 767's! WPF. Here is how it will really happen, " we would love to pay you more but with high cost of operating DC8's ( 4 engine, 3 man, D checks about 4 times the cost of the 767).. we just cannot afford to pay any more and continue the home basing, increased medical costs... etc.. etc,... I might be wrong but just look at what Cappy just settled for! The Tea leaves say almost no raise and the 767's are yours. Or a modest pay raise and Cappy gets them. Let the whipsawing begin!

Why do you rag on Cappy when you guys settled for a concessionary contract?
You statement before was "They seem to be willing to work for less" when in FACT, FACT, FACT the only ones that settled for less so far has been ABX. Cappy might not be up there but they did not settle for less.
Now on this response all you make is ASSumptions.

People that live in glass houses........... you get it right..

 

[nitefr8dog]

Why do you rag on Cappy when you guys settled for a concessionary contract?
You statement before was "They seem to be willing to work for less" when in FACT, FACT, FACT the only ones that settled for less so far has been ABX. Cappy might not be up there but they did not settle for less.
Now on this response all you make is ASSumptions.

People that live in glass houses........... you get it right..

Because ABX is still the highest paid ACMI carrier out there flying more than 8 airframes. And I predict when the dust settles ABX will still be the highest paid of the ATSG carrier's. We gave up some pay but had the most to give up and still make a helluva alot more than the other carriers under the ATSG umbrella.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Or a modest pay raise and Cappy gets them. Let the whipsawing begin!

Cappy has big time issues in just operating right now............
(manning problems, mel problems, huge faa scrutinizing going on)
Not a huge threat there dog.

 

[dsee8driver]

Because ABX is still the highest paid ACMI carrier out there flying more than 8 airframes. And I predict when the dust settles ABX will still be the highest paid of the ATSG carrier's. We gave up some pay but had the most to give up and still make a helluva alot more than the other carriers under the ATSG umbrella.

Yes nitefr8 you are right. When the dust settles you MIGHT be the highest paid ACMI but with 200-300 guys still on the streets and from the few (5) guys I have talked to that are here now, one of the most miserable places to work at. But you are the highest paid!!

For us, we will probably settle for a fair contract that will include homebasing. Hopefully our QOL will improve although you don't hear many complaining about it now. Yes we don't make as much as ABX but it is not far behind and yet it has allowed BAX to grow and continue to use the ol' faithful 8 while we transition to a new aircraft. But you are the highest paid with 200-300 guys without jobs. Can we use some new work rules? Absolutely, and our MEC is hard at work getting us a descent contract.
Regardless, you don't hear many guys complain about ATI. We are hiring.. not recalling and hopefully we will offer jobs to your 1224 brothers while you are the highest paid ACMI with 200-300 guys on the streets...

 

[nitefr8dog]

Yes nitefr8 you are right. When the dust settles you MIGHT be the highest paid ACMI but with 200-300 guys still on the streets and from the few (5) guys I have talked to that are here now, one of the most miserable places to work at. But you are the highest paid!!

For us, we will probably settle for a fair contract that will include homebasing. Hopefully our QOL will improve although you don't hear many complaining about it now. Yes we don't make as much as ABX but it is not far behind and yet it has allowed BAX to grow and continue to use the ol' faithful 8 while we transition to a new aircraft. But you are the highest paid with 200-300 guys without jobs. Can we use some new work rules? Absolutely, and our MEC is hard at work getting us a descent contract.
Regardless, you don't hear many guys complain about ATI. We are hiring.. not recalling and hopefully we will offer jobs to your 1224 brothers while you are the highest paid ACMI with 200-300 guys on the streets...

Let's see when ABX was flying DC8's at the same time as ATI was flying DC8's we made 37K more base pay. Now I am sure you will say that is because ABX was 3 times the size of ATI and generated more revenue and could pay a hirer wage. Now that ABX is 2/3rd's the size it was at that time and took a pay adjustment in line with the lower revenue's generated we are a bunch of bums who took concessions. And ATI was not just working for alot less money! Bite me! ATSG suggested ABX lower their pay to match the ATI pay. Most of us said we would rather see the airline close it's doors. Things are so rosy at ATI we have pilots on furlough that have elected to stay on unemployment and wait for a recall than accept a position at ATI. How can that be it is utopia over there? I dare say not one pilot on the ABX list would swap places to be on ATI's list.

I stand by my prediction ATI has in the past and will in the future work for less compensation.

And yes we have 200-300 pilots on furlough... be glad the Germans did not purchase ATI...the doors would be shut, you would never have weathered the storm flying old equipment.

 

[Captzaahlie]

Let's see when ABX was flying DC8's at the same time as ATI was flying DC8's we made 37K more base pay. Now I am sure you will say that is because ABX was 3 times the size of ATI and generated more revenue and could pay a hirer wage. Now that ABX is 2/3rd's the size it was at that time and took a pay adjustment in line with the lower revenue's generated we are a bunch of bums who took concessions. And ATI was not just working for alot less money! Bite me! ATSG suggested ABX lower their pay to match the ATI pay. Most of us said we would rather see the airline close it's doors. Things are so rosy at ATI we have pilots on furlough that have elected to stay on unemployment and wait for a recall than accept a position at ATI. How can that be it is utopia over there? I dare say not one pilot on the ABX list would swap places to be on ATI's list.

I stand by my prediction ATI has in the past and will in the future work for less compensation.

And yes we have 200-300 pilots on furlough... be glad the Germans did not purchase ATI...the doors would be shut, you would never have weathered the storm flying old equipment.

Face it people are bypassing jobs at ATI in hopes of being recalled at ABX those further up on the list don't want to commit to 2 years at ATI. Spin it anyway you like but that's the reality of the subject. In the mean time I think you need to just STFU and be happy some of your fellow pilots have the ability to get off unemployment and feed their families. They are being treated pretty well here and everyone of them I've met seem sincerely happy to be flying again. Maybe you should take your drivel over to one of the German cargo forums and discuss your plight with them.....

 

[nitefr8dog]

face it people are bypassing jobs at ati in hopes of being recalled at abx those further up on the list don't want to commit to 2 years at ati. Spin it anyway you like but that's the reality of the subject. In the mean time i think you need to just stfu and be happy some of your fellow pilots have the ability to get off unemployment and feed their families. They are being treated pretty well here and everyone of them i've met seem sincerely happy to be flying again. Maybe you should take your drivel over to one of the german cargo forums and discuss your plight with them.....

blah, blah, blah

 

[abxflyr1]

Geezzz, you guys are really something else. Entertaining to listen to if nothing else, but growing up a little should be posted on your ‘to do list’ for the future. Even here on FI there have been times in the past where you can have differing opinions without all the rhetoric.

While only my personal opinion, each of you has posted valid points at times. There is no doubt that ABX took a concessionary agreement, they had no where to go but down and, overall they (1224) did a decent job at limiting the amount of givebacks. It’s a new world for ABX/1224 operating solely in the ACMI market….there is a learning curve, just look at their management and staffing issues. A few years into the future and they may figure some of it out, but probably will not master ACMI’s with such a large percentage of the business with DHL (ATI’s BAX is much smaller).

Oddly, the 767 doesn’t really gain anything on the DC8 (70s) until you break about 5 hrs of flight time, which kills most of the domestic. As far as the other pro/con argument on a/c goes…767 has the cost/restrictions of ETOPS, extra crewmember (IRO..which is fairly expensive), but less engines. DC8 (DC10,74, L10, etc.) has more engines, no ETOPs, extra crewmember (typically less than IRO costs), and much larger range.

Lastly, comparing ATI to ABX is unrealistic. ATI is working from scales that are a decade old. IMO they will not match the ABX scale in the future, life just doesn’t work that way. Home-basing…it is a very nice thing, although hard to put a dollar figure on it. Nite’s figures are way off…just remember what ABX spent on tickets for Osaka. It’s individually specific to each crewmember as to the value and is difficult to put a dollar figure (in salary) to for calculations.

 

[dsee8driver]

Good post ABV... and nitefr8, well....

BAX did get bought by Germans... that's why ATI was spun off to Mr. God and family first said the FOX...

We now have ETOPS... Slowly we are coming to part. I agree with homebasing thing about it being hard to put a $$ value.

nite you still sound pretty bitter to have a job while many are on unemployment...

 

[nitefr8dog]

Geezzz, you guys are really something else. Entertaining to listen to if nothing else, but growing up a little should be posted on your ‘to do list’ for the future. Even here on FI there have been times in the past where you can have differing opinions without all the rhetoric.

While only my personal opinion, each of you has posted valid points at times. There is no doubt that ABX took a concessionary agreement, they had no where to go but down and, overall they (1224) did a decent job at limiting the amount of givebacks. It’s a new world for ABX/1224 operating solely in the ACMI market….there is a learning curve, just look at their management and staffing issues. A few years into the future and they may figure some of it out, but probably will not master ACMI’s with such a large percentage of the business with DHL (ATI’s BAX is much smaller).

Oddly, the 767 doesn’t really gain anything on the DC8 (70s) until you break about 5 hrs of flight time, which kills most of the domestic. As far as the other pro/con argument on a/c goes…767 has the cost/restrictions of ETOPS, extra crewmember (IRO..which is fairly expensive), but less engines. DC8 (DC10,74, L10, etc.) has more engines, no ETOPs, extra crewmember (typically less than IRO costs), and much larger range.

Lastly, comparing ATI to ABX is unrealistic. ATI is working from scales that are a decade old. IMO they will not match the ABX scale in the future, life just doesn’t work that way. Home-basing…it is a very nice thing, although hard to put a dollar figure on it. Nite’s figures are way off…just remember what ABX spent on tickets for Osaka. It’s individually specific to each crewmember as to the value and is difficult to put a dollar figure (in salary) to for calculations.

The union (1224) came up with 7K as the value of Home-basing. Remember the ticket cost that your company pays compared to joe pilot is quit a bit different. ABX paid crazy prises for tickets because of under-staffing and last minute purchases. I can buy 2 round trip domestic tickets for under 1k per month do it all the time...I would not accept 30K less pay over home-basing. Per JH when we discussed pay scales before the contract signing, the DC8 cost 2-3 times as much to operate and maintain operate. Which will be ATSG's angle why we cannot pay as much ATI. That was also 1224's reason not to match ATI's pay. IMHO

 

[abxflyr1]

The union (1224) came up with 7K as the value of Home-basing. Remember the ticket cost that your company pays compared to joe pilot is quit a bit different. ABX paid crazy prises for tickets because of under-staffing and last minute purchases. I can buy 2 round trip domestic tickets for under 1k per month do it all the time...I would not accept 30K less pay over home-basing. Per JH when we discussed pay scales before the contract signing, the DC8 cost 2-3 times as much to operate and maintain operate. Which will be ATSG's angle why we cannot pay as much ATI. That was also 1224's reason not to match ATI's pay. IMHO

A. What a 1224 pilot values home-basing for and what an ATI pilot values it for are different...different operations by far. The 7K value...well, it's way to big a variable. No different that JM tell you that our give back is somewhere between 30-48% (big numbers, big differences).

B. It may matter what a company pays for X tickets when trying to figure out the value in reference to a CBA, but trying to pin down a number is like anyone (JH) telling you what leases/mx costs are for a particular airline or fleet type. Especially when a lot is done through AMES and CAM...makes David Copperfield jealous.

C. JH talking DC8 maint and cost. All facts and information based upon DC8 60's with JT3's. Totally different numbers when you get into 70's/CFM and a/c with different cycles. Don't get me wrong, the DC8 has a limited lifecycle (in dollars) and ATI will not have them forever, but as mentioned before, lets talk again in 5 yrs. (remember ATI ops a lot of govt./fuel paid flights).

In all, I'm glad 1224 did not match ATI's pay. No doubt, ATI needs to increase their payscales...to what, well I'm not well positioned to know just yet. Anyone with a reasonable approach to their career should know that whipsawing isn't in anyones best interest. Let's hope that each carrier continues with that in mind, but also achieves their individual airlines/unions concerns while maintaining a balanced field (I know, easier said than done).

 

[dsee8driver]

In all, I'm glad 1224 did not match ATI's pay. No doubt, ATI needs to increase their payscales...to what, well I'm not well positioned to know just yet. Anyone with a reasonable approach to their career should know that whipsawing isn't in anyones best interest. Let's hope that each carrier continues with that in mind, but also achieves their individual airlines/unions concerns while maintaining a balanced field (I know, easier said than done).

Good post..

I'm also glad 1224 did not match ATI pay scales. We are looking for a raise and make the 767 a home-based airplane. Right now, our contract allows the company to base the 76.
We definitely need to clean up our first contract that is the one we are working under. ATI has OPS SPECS that are very hard to get nowadays. Hopefully our combi contract with the military will continue to flourish. For now, BAX is growing and their demand for the 8 has increased. Everyone thought the 8 might be going soon but so far there is no end in sight for us..

 

[dc8tom]

Is it true some A.T.I pilots voted for a Miami base? And if so why is it so important now.

 

[motherfokker]

Hey, AGREENFO, have you tried calling the CP at Dusty? I hear they are assigning more aircraft to their cargo routes? # is 800FALCON1.

 

[nitefr8dog]

A. What a 1224 pilot values home-basing for and what an ATI pilot values it for are different...different operations by far. The 7K value...well, it's way to big a variable. No different that JM tell you that our give back is somewhere between 30-48% (big numbers, big differences).

B. It may matter what a company pays for X tickets when trying to figure out the value in reference to a CBA, but trying to pin down a number is like anyone (JH) telling you what leases/mx costs are for a particular airline or fleet type. Especially when a lot is done through AMES and CAM...makes David Copperfield jealous.

C. JH talking DC8 maint and cost. All facts and information based upon DC8 60's with JT3's. Totally different numbers when you get into 70's/CFM and a/c with different cycles. Don't get me wrong, the DC8 has a limited lifecycle (in dollars) and ATI will not have them forever, but as mentioned before, lets talk again in 5 yrs. (remember ATI ops a lot of govt./fuel paid flights).

In all, I'm glad 1224 did not match ATI's pay. No doubt, ATI needs to increase their payscales...to what, well I'm not well positioned to know just yet. Anyone with a reasonable approach to their career should know that whipsawing isn't in anyones best interest. Let's hope that each carrier continues with that in mind, but also achieves their individual airlines/unions concerns while maintaining a balanced field (I know, easier said than done).

It really does not mater what you or I think the 767 VS DC8 cost to operate is...it is what JH thinks the cost is which is my point! I am not negotiating with ATI... ATSG/JH is.... and that is where the bullet meets the bone. Which is also why the pay will be lower IMHO.

 

[dsee8driver]

Is it true some A.T.I pilots voted for a Miami base? And if so why is it so important now.

No. ATI pilots voted the current contract in that back in 2000 it allowed the company to base any new aircraft. Nobody thought they would then. Some guys bid the Miami base when the company based 1 76 there. That is another ball of wax...