can we totally blame de-regulation

[hate2bL8]

I contend that we cannot totally blame the free-market for what has happened in aviation I.E pilot salaries. De-regulation did allow for the rise in low cost carriers however nowhere do I see a discussion on the costliest part of the business for the airline, the AIRPLANE. as far as Im concerned these plane makers(airbus and Boeing) have a virtual monopoly on the sale of theseplanes.what choices do they have? both are subsidized by the government and yes boeing is subsidized and how fair is that? this means High cost and little to no new innovation. Imagine the power if the airline could build there own plane.

 

[hate2bL8]

tell me when it was the last time BOEING felt the pain like the rest of the industry in economic cycles and high full cost.Instead they have always benefited from HUGE government contracts and the demand overseas. did the airlines benefit? Just look at how they are crying to congress over a little competition for the TANKER for which they will win

 

[Tail Gunner Joe]

(airbus and Boeing) have a virtual monopoly on the sale of theseplanes.what choices do they have? Imagine the power if the airline could build there own plane.

Okay, I'll bite:

Airline X builds the F100 and soon goes out of business due to high maintenance cost.

Airline Y builds the CV 880 and soon goes out of business due to high fuel cost.

Airline Z builds the BAC 111 and can't meet stage III requirements.

Therefore, only airline A and B remain in business.

 

[Flopgut]

Yes, we can blame deregulation.

Guest spoke on CNBC the other day named Wilbur Ross. Said the US needs to "decide what we want to be good at as a country". He's got a good point and aviation is the perfect example. American aircraft manufacturers are the world leaders. Airliners, bizjets, single engine pistons, etc, etc. Everything that flies. We lead in world air cargo, we lead in biz av and in fractionals. Shoot, we invented powered flight! But what do we do with our airlines? Our legacy, flag carrier world wide airlines? We cripple them with deregulation. We used to be world leaders, remember UAL once had a base in Europe. Northwest had operations throughout Asia. But at home, we screw them. So a whole bunch of people who probably don't need to get around the country for less than their own auto's gas? It's BS. We did as much in the housing market and the bubble burst. Lot's of folks that couldn't afford a house got one and now they can't pay for it. We haven't had that sort of correction in aviation, but it might be coming soon. Unfortunately, the only thing forclosed on in the airline business is airline worker prosperity.

It's not just deregulation. The Railway Labor Act has been a wicked master as well. We've suffered equally under these instuments as a means to get the massess cheap airline tickets.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

A system or culture that only values the dollar will fail.

 

[pilotyip]

Yes, we can blame deregulation.

Guest spoke on CNBC the oth.....It's not just deregulation. The Railway Labor Act has been a wicked master as well. We've suffered equally under these instuments as a means to get the massess cheap airline tickets.

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Re-reg would be good for a few senior pilots not so good for everyone else.

 

[hate2bL8]

I know that this issue is more complicated than what I pointed out;I dont think we are in complete de-regulation. I believe completely in the power of the free market. with a level playing field a revolutionary will come along with a better product and better service and be able to charge higher prices for that service!

 

[Regul8r]

Poor Management

Management not knowing how to price their product is the biggest culprit.

 

[motherfokker]

I contend that we cannot totally blame the free-market for what has happened in aviation I.E pilot salaries. De-regulation did allow for the rise in low cost carriers however nowhere do I see a discussion on the costliest part of the business for the airline, the AIRPLANE. as far as Im concerned these plane makers(airbus and Boeing) have a virtual monopoly on the sale of theseplanes.what choices do they have? both are subsidized by the government and yes boeing is subsidized and how fair is that? this means High cost and little to no new innovation. Imagine the power if the airline could build there own plane.

Gee??? Me thinks I would rather be a piluuutt prior to deregulation. Pay, pension, job benefits and relative job security... probably at little better than my current career retirement destiny as a WalMart greeter. Least we have the "free market" and Sarah Palin posters to whack off to now. Of course I'm probably wrong just tune into Fox news and they will prove it.

 

[Nindiri]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Re-reg would be good for a few senior pilots not so good for everyone else.

And every single pilot on FI thinks he would be one of the lucky few. :laugh:

 

[Flopgut]

Life was good for a few pilots under regulation. There are probably 4-5 times as many pilot’s jobs now as there was in 1977. Back in reg time it was about 90% military that went to the majors. Dereg opened up a lot of airline job to non-military pilots. To return to regulation would raise ticket prices, reduce the number of passengers, and therefore reduce the number of pilots needed. Re-reg would be good for a few senior pilots not so good for everyone else.

This is hard for pilots to do, but each of us need to remove ourselves from the equation. Is what was done with deregulation proved to be beneficial?

Do you think an airline ticket should be part of unemployment benefits? Because that's just about where we are....

Other countries decide they want to enable and nurture airlines, what's wrong with that? The Emir in UAE clearly wants to run an airline. That could be done here, but some small carrier claiming to halve the fares would immediately go after it. The small carrier can't sustain the fare and then both carriers suffer.

 

[pilotyip]

Nationize airlines?

This is hard for pilots to do, but each of us need to remove ourselves from the .....o halve the fares would immediately go after it. The small carrier can't sustain the fare and then both carriers suffer.

So I take it you are all for state run airlines under regulation? right?

 

[cynic]

If you are discussing only pilot salaries then you are not correct. The decline of union power is almost 100% to blame. Certainly it was these same government policies that led to deregulation so in a sense, both deregulation and anti union laws are the result of pro business anti labor policies.

A very nice paper on the topic can be found here -http://www.slate.com/id/2266025/entry/2266031/

 

[Flopgut]

So I take it you are all for state run airlines under regulation? right?

No. But let's decide what we are going to be good at as a nation and then let's get about doing it. Airlines would be a great thing to do. We lead in all other things areospace, why not airlines? Look, we're almost going to be where I'm talking about being. Mergers are going to change the landscape and the LCCs won't keep up.... Unless the govt steps in. We're allowed to be deregulated if it drives the costs down and down. The instant we can make some money and the costs go up.... Who knows? If we're not govt run when we're losing money, don't try to run us when we are.... Period.

 

[pilotyip]

No. But let's decide what we are going to be good at as a nation and then let's get about doing it. Airlines would be a great thing to do. We lead in all other things areospace, why not airlines? Look, we're almost going to be where I'm talking about being. Mergers are going to change the landscape and the LCCs won't keep up.... Unless the govt steps in. We're allowed to be deregulated if it drives the costs down and down. The instant we can make some money and the costs go up.... Who knows? If we're not govt run when we're losing money, don't try to run us when we are.... Period.

would this increase ticket prices?

 

[UALRATT]

would this increase ticket prices?

Yip you certainly argue your point like a high school drop out rather than the college grad that you are. Is it deregulation or actually partial regulation? FAR Part 1 thru Part 1399 would cease to exist if the industry was indeed deregulated. Both you and I know very well that these same regulation adds considerable burden and cost to the business of operating airplanes. We are also keenly aware that the Act of 1977 only removed barriers to entry (barring a few airports requiring slots), and placed product valuation directly into the hands of mediocrity. What the government essentially proclaimed back then was that it would not be the one to continue subsidizing the industry. Instead, the airlines had to find another partner to accept that role and certainly they did. The EMPLOYEES!!

So you my friend had to pitch in to allow ticket prices are become artificially low. You've been subsidizing them all along much to your chagrin. Now here is what's really interesting: You keep mentioning time and time again about how bad you've had it in this business. Yet you keep :smash: the one thing that will provide that stability you wish for. Your career would probably have been much more stable had we either completely deregulated the industry or kept it completely regulated. Your love affair with present day "deregulation" has indeed been a disaster for you, and for all of us...

 

[pilotyip]

Yip you certainly argue your point like a high school drop out rather than the college grad that you are. Is it deregulation or actually partial regulation? ......industry. Instead, the airlines had to find another partner to accept that role and certainly they did. The EMPLOYEES!! .........it completely regulated. Your love affair with present day "deregulation" has indeed been a disaster for you, and for all of us...

Think you got it wrong, I am only saying there is no Pandora’s box, where everything comes out all roses. There are unintended consequences to every action. If you change the status quo, others things will change. We do not know what those will be until after the change has been implemented. I am only saying that anything that rasies tickets prices will effect ridership. An airline ticket is a nearly perfectly elastic commodity. Someone prove me wrong, shut down an airline to get what you want and show me how much better it is. BTW I did not cause this disaster, I am only an observer who has been treated very well by my career choice.

 

[Flopgut]

More to the point of the thread: What Wilbur Ross said is that we have a problem with states negotiating with other countries directly without Federal guidance. Alabama cuts a sweetheart deal with a foriegn automaker and cuts the nuts off the UAL jobs in Michigan. If all we care about if cheap cars, that's one thing. But if we are wondering why the best paying American jobs are going away we need to address this.

Same thing happened years ago with deregulation. Harding Lawrence was running Braniff at the time and felt deregulation was going to fail. He launched a couple hundred new destinations as soon as he could. He also squared off with SWA at Love and matched every flight/fare they had and meant to put them out of business. Afterall, this was supposed to be deregulation. Well, the State of Texas got involved in what was clearly a federal matter, and had Braniff thrown out of Love. The rest is history. SWA was propped up then and have been propped up since (when necessary) to make the case that deregulation was a good idea. Imagine what this country's worldwide airline presence would be if Braniff was still around?

 

[AgreenFO]

Mother Fokker you can always call Rusty and get a job but you still can't sit at his lunch table. Kelly called me and told me Sloy and Weird are having a pregnancy dispute. Good luck with Rusty

 

[pilotyip]

Same thing happened years ago with deregulation. Harding Lawrence was running Braniff at the time and felt deregulation was going to fail. He launched a couple hundred new destinations as soon as he could. He also squared off with SWA at Love and matched every flight/fare they had and meant to put them out of business. Afterall, this was supposed to be deregulation. Well, the State of Texas got involved in what was clearly a federal matter, and had Braniff thrown out of Love. The rest is history. SWA was propped up then and have been propped up since (when necessary) to make the case that deregulation was a good idea. Imagine what this country's worldwide airline presence would be if Braniff was still around?

read "Hard Landing" AAL put Branniff out of business, by using Sabre to point all passengers to AAL.