Can we stop whining.

[rajflyboy]

ESPN GAME DAY is in Boise, ID!!!!


GO BRONCO'S!

They suck. They could barely beat VT and VT isn't that good.

I hope the Bronco's lose today but it won't matter because they will lose in a big bowl game. In fact they will get blown out in a bowl game against an SEC team or even a slow OSU team.

They couldn't even beat the NC State Wolfpack.

Boise State = Over Rated

Why else would they have to paint their home field blue.

ESPN Gameday used to be a good show until they hired Erin Andrews who knows zilch about football.

 

[jtf]

So what weird and wacky foreign stuff that is mostly only known through experience is a relatively inexperienced PIC going to screw up? If there is an experienced SIC (or SICs on longer flights) there to give hints, do you really expect the PIC to disregard the experienced crew members when it comes to local customs/ procedures? I don't know how things are in the cockpit at NJI, but at NJA at least 99 percent of the pilots I fly with practice something called Crew Resource Management. We talk things through and make educated decisions. Experience has it's place, and it will still be there when the company either follows the contract voluntarily or has an arbitrator force it on them. As far as the extra raises they plan on giving to various NJI guys, I guess I'm hoping that can be grieved also- not to take it away, but give it to everyone since they say we are one big happy family. Honestly I think the new management is testing us to see what they can get away with and to help decide if they will extend the contact or not. I guess they will find out. Unfortunately it is an expensive test for both the profitability of the company and for labor relations.

 

[rajflyboy]

So what weird and wacky foreign stuff that is mostly only known through experience is a relatively inexperienced PIC going to screw up? If there is an experienced SIC (or SICs on longer flights) there to give hints, do you really expect the PIC to disregard the experienced crew members when it comes to local customs/ procedures? I don't know how things are in the cockpit at NJI, but at NJA at least 99 percent of the pilots I fly with practice something called Crew Resource Management. We talk things through and make educated decisions. Experience has it's place, and it will still be there when the company either follows the contract voluntarily or has an arbitrator force it on them. As far as the extra raises they plan on giving to various NJI guys, I guess I'm hoping that can be grieved also- not to take it away, but give it to everyone since they say we are one big happy family. Honestly I think the new management is testing us to see what they can get away with and to help decide if they will extend the contact or not. I guess they will find out. Unfortunately it is an expensive test for both the profitability of the company and for labor relations.

I basically agree with you here but if you voted YES for IBB you were part of the problem to begin with.

 

[imacdog]

I basically agree with you here but if you voted YES for IBB you were part of the problem to begin with.

An equitable integration process was spelled out in IBB. Whether management chooses to follow the agreed-upon process is an entirely separate issue.

 

[gunfyter]

I thought it meant somebody junior can upgrade before me?

 

[gutshotdraw]

As far as the extra raises they plan on giving to various NJI guys, I guess I'm hoping that can be grieved also- not to take it away, but give it to everyone since they say we are one big happy family.

I need to clarify this issue since NJASAP is on the wrong side of this one. It is NOT an "extra" raise.

NJI has always been on a Jan 1-Dec 31 calendar. NJA has always been on an Oct 1-Sep 30 calendar. Since Jan 1, NJI pilots have been receiving their regularly scheduled raise for 2010 on their anniversary date which is date of G-IV upgrade for PIC's and DOH for SIC's (they re-set salary review dates to avoid giving two raises in one calendar year--old topic).

Salary amounts for purposes of the "Pay Protection Level" will be frozen next week on Sep 30. The idea was to give the REGULARLY SCHEDULED 2010 raise to the roughly 25% of the NJI pilot group who's review date falls between Sep 30 and Dec 31 so that they will be treated THE SAME as their NJI contemporaries. Then, everybody is square and things proceed according to the salary protection terms of the LOA.

No NJA pilot would be hurt by this plan and it is only FAIR to roughly 25% of the group (yes, yours truly is one of them) whereas this group would be unfairly punished strictly because of the disparity in the way the "fiscal year" was calculated by the two companies.

 

[gutshotdraw]

Most of the NJA guys aren't interested in the NJA side.

Thanks for the perspective Raj. I assume you meant most guys aren't interested in the NJI side?

 

[RTRHD]

I thought this might be appropriate. Just change to Captain. LOL :laugh:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIVHNylH1Mk

 

[206amphib]

ESPN GAME DAY is in Boise, ID!!!!


GO BRONCO'S!

Awwww yeah

 

[realityman]

Gut, I hear ya buddy. This was not very smart on their part(company) But I also think the company is trying to make this a safe and professional operation, and NOTHING MORE. Like I said, the one's doing the whinning know nothing about International flying. I have no dog in this fight but I'm allready TIRED of the UNION B.S. and the 5%er's causing trouble in the rank's. Be professional and do your job, and that doesn't include a leather jacket at Netjets. Do what I'm planning on doing, Buy one and be proud of it BUT wear it on your time off.

Oh puh-leeeeze! Would you like to get a ruler out so we can all see who is the most "man" too?

I fly international for NJA. And I've talked with plenty of my friends who fly for NJI. The fact of the matter is, the way we do it at NJA is far harder and more labor intensive (and dumber) than the way it's done at NJI. Every time you cross a fix in a non-radar envrionment (Over the NAT or uncontrolled areas of the world) do you have to record MH, TH, Fuel burned, fuel left, current winds, current temps, drift down altitudes and on and on and on. Not saying any of that is particularly tough, but if you don't do it, then you're int'l flying is EASIER than here at NJA. I'm certain I could handle it in the G-whiz. And if I were PIC due to seniority, and flying with a junior PIC who had more experience in type than me, I'd have no qualms about asking for opinions and help (but relax, I have no desire to fly the G-planes).

As for all the other variables that go into flying to all the places you go at NJI, unless I'm wrong, Netjets handles pretty much everything for you, same as they do for us. And if you get to some third-world country where things start going to crap and not according to the Netjets plan, like pretty much every third-world country, just throw serious tip money at the handlers and whoever and suddenly things are going smoothly again. Not really a big deal.

Not really sure why time in type is so important for who gets listed as PIC. As I said, if you're not listed as the PIC, but have more time in type, I'm 100% certain that none of our guys would have any qualms about asking you for help or advice.

And by the way, I don't think it's a problem to have the other guy listed as the official PIC if you don't want to do it. For my first Hawaii trip, we had the junior PIC listed as THE PIC because I wanted to watch him in action before being the head honcho on those trips. It wasn't a problem to do it that way.

Anyway, bottom line is, most of us don't care who is THE PIC on a flight. As long as the paychecks are appropriate we really could give a rats ass about it. What we DO care very pasionately about, is the company following the CBA, AND the FOM. Heaven help us if a pilot violates the CBA or the FOM, but we should just roll over if the company does it? Since we'll all be on the same CBA and FOM shortly, then those are the rules to be followed. If that means that the more senior guy is the PIC, then so be it.

 

[realityman]

I'll start with a few things I can think of off hand. Givebacks in work rules were the main problem.

Basically the union gave the company everything they wanted as far as scheduling is concerned. I do mean everthing. They did this to get better basing and pay for the SIC's. They gave a small raise to captains but unfortunately the work rules and loss of OT due to day one airline show/go rules have far outweighed the small pay raise we were given. Most of the PIC's have lost money on this deal. Some SIC's actually lost money too because they are not allowed to get by pass pay now with the IBB rules.

Most of the NJA guys aren't interested in the NJA side. IBB was a big part of the seniority list being merged. I think most of the NJA guys didn't look hard enough at this when they voted. Well at this point I don't see how any YES voter can complain. We knew all this BS was going to happen before the IBB vote.

A bunch of pilots lost out on getting their 4 weeks vacation (during year 10) because IBB changed the vacation bidding schedule (you have to complete 10 years of service to get the 4th week) (we hired a ton of pilots in the fall of 2001) (honestly many of those pilots have no idea that they will miss their 4th week of vacation by a month or two yet). On top of that many lost 5 or 6 days vacation due to the vacation bid schedule (although we did get paid for those days we still lost them).

This is just a basic overview of the problem with IBB. I could go on and on about this. The givebacks on scheduling and work rules are really sad. We will never be able to get that stuff back. Its all lost now.

Don't forget that shortly after IBB 2 of the top ranking union members left to go to Managment. Something else that we all could easily see before IBB. I'm convinced that IBB had something to do with this.

Well, that's one perspective. Funny how you left all the things we GOT with IBB. I'm not gonna make a list like you did. What's the point? But we got plenty out of it!

Was it perfect? No! Did the company get a lot? Yes! But so did we. Did the company get everything they wanted? I'm sure your answer is yes, but they did not. Both sides still have plenty of room to negotiate on the next round.

I don't know who you talk to on the road, but while most people I talk to think there are plenty of areas we can improve upon, most are pretty happy with what we have. One of the biggest things you haven't mentioned is that without IBB, our junior folks would still be limited to 5 bases. Without IBB, we'd be making quite a bit less than we are now. And most importantly, without IBB, we'd have been negotiating for our new contract at the peak of the worst economic downturns seen in a long time while Netjets was losing huge sums of money. Under those conditions, would we have been able to demand enough to not only give us raises, but make up for the three years of money we'd have left behind from IBB?

It's not as simple as you paint it to be. And i don't think the majority of the pilots are unhappy with IBB. I think many are unhappy with how certain parts have turned out, or how the company is trying to interpret certain parts, but overall, I think most agree we're still better off today with IBB than if we'd have passed on it.

 

[RTRHD]

For my first Hawaii trip,

Hawaii is in the States Dude. I am just screwing with ya.

 

[ProFracPilot]

Every time you cross a fix in a non-radar envrionment (Over the NAT or uncontrolled areas of the world) do you have to record MH, TH, Fuel burned, fuel left, current winds, current temps, drift down altitudes and on and on and on.

Just like you were taught to do back in the day on your first NAT crossing in 59K, right?

 

[fischman]

Basically the union gave the company everything they wanted as far as scheduling is concerned. I do mean everthing. They did this to get better basing and pay for the SIC's. They gave a small raise to captains but unfortunately the work rules and loss of OT due to day one airline show/go rules have far outweighed the small pay raise we were given. Most of the PIC's have lost money on this deal. Some SIC's actually lost money too because they are not allowed to get by pass pay now with the IBB rules.

I completely disagree with this entire paragraph. My W2 is almost $40,000 more a year due to IBB, and PLEASE post ACTUAL numbers to show where ANY SIC is making less. This is a blanket statement with absolutely NO BASIS in fact.

Please quote the contract sections in the '05 vs. '07 CBA's to show where less OT is obtainable.

 

[fischman]

This message is for the 5%er's that will most likly NEVER be on the G,
I suspect it's the JUNIOR PIC'S/SIC's that's doing all the whining. I've never heard sooooo many crying BABIES in my life. The WHO'S the PIC is A JOKE. (I want to be the pic, I was here first). This is one of the main reason's why NO ONE wants to be in a UNION.
You guy's think you can jump in a G and go to the other side of the world and deal with All the B.S. that goes with it and do it safely and professional to meet all the customer's need's, With a few month's experience. I'm all for it. I perfer it as a matter of fact. I get paid the same. I'm with the other guy's (what time in the lobby BOSS).
I know for a fact that more than one of the (senior) NJA guy's to include the BBJ guy's, that came over to NJI, had problems getting thru the training. Those guy's may have flown the BBJ international, but ask them how much experience they have doing that type of flying. (Very little from what I hear, They didn't go anywhere, the company had to FIND work for the plane, They sat for month's at a time and never moved.) Yes with the proper training anyone can do it, No one is trying to pull something over on the union, we are trying to be professional and safe!!!!!
So for all you want to be a G pilots, stop causing problems for the company and just do YOUR job.

That is an elitist attitude which is complete crap.

Yes. I could get in your gulfstream and fly it around the world, and yes, the owners will get off the plane completely happy.

Sorry, but that attitude and argument is getting OLD. You are not better than me.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

I hope the Bronco's lose today but it won't matter because they will lose in a big bowl game.

But they didn't!

3-0... (73-2 on the blue turf)

 

[wolfpackpilot]

Yes. I could get in your gulfstream and fly it around the world

Its a strange thing these pointless discussions. But until you fly an airplane into Northern China and do a night approach to minimums in Mountain terrain, QFE (to a MIG Fighter base no less), with no ground base radar vectors... You simply don't get the point. No one said you couldn't learn how to do it, but the thought that you can just take a class and go blast off around the world is ludicrous.

The entire stake of this company rests with our unmatched safety record. And the risk to that safety record multiples triple digits when you leave the United States of America. Get it now?

Wolf
(who spent 3 years flying AROUND the world before being PIC)

 

[jtf]

I basically agree with you here but if you voted YES for IBB you were part of the problem to begin with.

I am happy to say that according to you I am part of the problem. I would happily vote yes again to the same deal knowing what I know now. I am not happy about the way things are going, but the majority of it was clearly spelled out for me in 2007 and I voted yes. Do I like it that there are G-IV captains that are junior to me while I'm stuck as an FO? Not particularly, but that is the deal I signed up for by voting yes. Is there any possible way we can renegotiate the parts of the deal we don't like any time soon? Nope- time to move the heck on. As long as they do everything by the contract and LOAs I am OK with it. When they step outside those lines I want and expect the hammer to fall. IBB was negotiated to benefit both sides and that is exactly what it did. No freakin' way were we going to get bypass pay and everything else we wanted. IBB gave me a 50 percent raise and the right to live in 95 more places at my choosing. We gave up a bit to get that. What we gave up is well worth it to me and the majority of pilots here. I admit I get a lot less day one OT, but as Fischman said- that was not due at all to IBB. That was purely the company pulling their head out of the rear and realizing that most of it was quite unneeded and wasteful.

 

[CE750Driver]

Its a strange thing these pointless discussions. But until you fly an airplane into Northern China and do a night approach to minimums in Mountain terrain, QFE (to a MIG Fighter base no less), with no ground base radar vectors... You simply don't get the point. No one said you couldn't learn how to do it, but the thought that you can just take a class and go blast off around the world is ludicrous.

The entire stake of this company rests with our unmatched safety record. And the risk to that safety record multiples triple digits when you leave the United States of America. Get it now?

Wolf
(who spent 3 years flying AROUND the world before being PIC)

I love posts like this. I flew PIC with a guy at NJA who flew SR71s around the world in his previous career. NEVER once, did he try and say he should be in command at any time. He would offer his advice and it would be graciously accepted. The difference between you and him. EGO. QFE! China! MIG bases!!!!! LIONS AND TIGERS AND BEARS OH MY! Get over yourself. A real man would have spent 10 years as an SIC before doing it themselves. :laugh: BTW, how are you going to explain your NJI guys that have been there less than 2 years and are flying international trips as PIC? Get it now? (Im guessing no)

Get over it. You will lose this fight, and you will be my SIC when you fly with me. Game over. Egomaniacs.

 

[Jack Campbell]

Hawaii is in the States Dude. I am just screwing with ya.

But don't forget to exchange your greenbacks for Hawaiian currency before departing the West Coast. BLAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA that story brings a smile to my face whenever I think about it! :laugh: