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Can we stop whining.

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rajflyboy said:
I'll start with a few things I can think of off hand. Givebacks in work rules were the main problem.

Basically the union gave the company everything they wanted as far as scheduling is concerned. I do mean everthing. They did this to get better basing and pay for the SIC's. They gave a small raise to captains but unfortunately the work rules and loss of OT due to day one airline show/go rules have far outweighed the small pay raise we were given. Most of the PIC's have lost money on this deal. Some SIC's actually lost money too because they are not allowed to get by pass pay now with the IBB rules.

Most of the NJA guys aren't interested in the NJA side. IBB was a big part of the seniority list being merged. I think most of the NJA guys didn't look hard enough at this when they voted. Well at this point I don't see how any YES voter can complain. We knew all this BS was going to happen before the IBB vote.

A bunch of pilots lost out on getting their 4 weeks vacation (during year 10) because IBB changed the vacation bidding schedule (you have to complete 10 years of service to get the 4th week) (we hired a ton of pilots in the fall of 2001) (honestly many of those pilots have no idea that they will miss their 4th week of vacation by a month or two yet). On top of that many lost 5 or 6 days vacation due to the vacation bid schedule (although we did get paid for those days we still lost them).

This is just a basic overview of the problem with IBB. I could go on and on about this. The givebacks on scheduling and work rules are really sad. We will never be able to get that stuff back. Its all lost now.

Don't forget that shortly after IBB 2 of the top ranking union members left to go to Managment. Something else that we all could easily see before IBB. I'm convinced that IBB had something to do with this.
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Well, that's one perspective. Funny how you left all the things we GOT with IBB. I'm not gonna make a list like you did. What's the point? But we got plenty out of it!

Was it perfect? No! Did the company get a lot? Yes! But so did we. Did the company get everything they wanted? I'm sure your answer is yes, but they did not. Both sides still have plenty of room to negotiate on the next round.

I don't know who you talk to on the road, but while most people I talk to think there are plenty of areas we can improve upon, most are pretty happy with what we have. One of the biggest things you haven't mentioned is that without IBB, our junior folks would still be limited to 5 bases. Without IBB, we'd be making quite a bit less than we are now. And most importantly, without IBB, we'd have been negotiating for our new contract at the peak of the worst economic downturns seen in a long time while Netjets was losing huge sums of money. Under those conditions, would we have been able to demand enough to not only give us raises, but make up for the three years of money we'd have left behind from IBB?

It's not as simple as you paint it to be. And i don't think the majority of the pilots are unhappy with IBB. I think many are unhappy with how certain parts have turned out, or how the company is trying to interpret certain parts, but overall, I think most agree we're still better off today with IBB than if we'd have passed on it.
 
realityman said:
Every time you cross a fix in a non-radar envrionment (Over the NAT or uncontrolled areas of the world) do you have to record MH, TH, Fuel burned, fuel left, current winds, current temps, drift down altitudes and on and on and on.
Click to expand...

Just like you were taught to do back in the day on your first NAT crossing in 59K, right? :D
 
rajflyboy said:
Basically the union gave the company everything they wanted as far as scheduling is concerned. I do mean everthing. They did this to get better basing and pay for the SIC's. They gave a small raise to captains but unfortunately the work rules and loss of OT due to day one airline show/go rules have far outweighed the small pay raise we were given. Most of the PIC's have lost money on this deal. Some SIC's actually lost money too because they are not allowed to get by pass pay now with the IBB rules.
Click to expand...
I completely disagree with this entire paragraph. My W2 is almost $40,000 more a year due to IBB, and PLEASE post ACTUAL numbers to show where ANY SIC is making less. This is a blanket statement with absolutely NO BASIS in fact.

Please quote the contract sections in the '05 vs. '07 CBA's to show where less OT is obtainable.
 
Dirty Dingus said:
This message is for the 5%er's that will most likly NEVER be on the G,
I suspect it's the JUNIOR PIC'S/SIC's that's doing all the whining. I've never heard sooooo many crying BABIES in my life. The WHO'S the PIC is A JOKE. (I want to be the pic, I was here first). This is one of the main reason's why NO ONE wants to be in a UNION.
You guy's think you can jump in a G and go to the other side of the world and deal with All the B.S. that goes with it and do it safely and professional to meet all the customer's need's, With a few month's experience. I'm all for it. I perfer it as a matter of fact. I get paid the same. I'm with the other guy's (what time in the lobby BOSS).
I know for a fact that more than one of the (senior) NJA guy's to include the BBJ guy's, that came over to NJI, had problems getting thru the training. Those guy's may have flown the BBJ international, but ask them how much experience they have doing that type of flying. (Very little from what I hear, They didn't go anywhere, the company had to FIND work for the plane, They sat for month's at a time and never moved.) Yes with the proper training anyone can do it, No one is trying to pull something over on the union, we are trying to be professional and safe!!!!!
So for all you want to be a G pilots, stop causing problems for the company and just do YOUR job.
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That is an elitist attitude which is complete crap.

Yes. I could get in your gulfstream and fly it around the world, and yes, the owners will get off the plane completely happy.

Sorry, but that attitude and argument is getting OLD. You are not better than me.
 
fischman said:
Yes. I could get in your gulfstream and fly it around the world
Click to expand...

Its a strange thing these pointless discussions. But until you fly an airplane into Northern China and do a night approach to minimums in Mountain terrain, QFE (to a MIG Fighter base no less), with no ground base radar vectors... You simply don't get the point. No one said you couldn't learn how to do it, but the thought that you can just take a class and go blast off around the world is ludicrous.

The entire stake of this company rests with our unmatched safety record. And the risk to that safety record multiples triple digits when you leave the United States of America. Get it now?

Wolf
(who spent 3 years flying AROUND the world before being PIC)
 
rajflyboy said:
I basically agree with you here but if you voted YES for IBB you were part of the problem to begin with.
Click to expand...

I am happy to say that according to you I am part of the problem. I would happily vote yes again to the same deal knowing what I know now. I am not happy about the way things are going, but the majority of it was clearly spelled out for me in 2007 and I voted yes. Do I like it that there are G-IV captains that are junior to me while I'm stuck as an FO? Not particularly, but that is the deal I signed up for by voting yes. Is there any possible way we can renegotiate the parts of the deal we don't like any time soon? Nope- time to move the heck on. As long as they do everything by the contract and LOAs I am OK with it. When they step outside those lines I want and expect the hammer to fall. IBB was negotiated to benefit both sides and that is exactly what it did. No freakin' way were we going to get bypass pay and everything else we wanted. IBB gave me a 50 percent raise and the right to live in 95 more places at my choosing. We gave up a bit to get that. What we gave up is well worth it to me and the majority of pilots here. I admit I get a lot less day one OT, but as Fischman said- that was not due at all to IBB. That was purely the company pulling their head out of the rear and realizing that most of it was quite unneeded and wasteful.
 
wolfpackpilot said:
Its a strange thing these pointless discussions. But until you fly an airplane into Northern China and do a night approach to minimums in Mountain terrain, QFE (to a MIG Fighter base no less), with no ground base radar vectors... You simply don't get the point. No one said you couldn't learn how to do it, but the thought that you can just take a class and go blast off around the world is ludicrous.

The entire stake of this company rests with our unmatched safety record. And the risk to that safety record multiples triple digits when you leave the United States of America. Get it now?

Wolf
(who spent 3 years flying AROUND the world before being PIC)
Click to expand...

I love posts like this. I flew PIC with a guy at NJA who flew SR71s around the world in his previous career. NEVER once, did he try and say he should be in command at any time. He would offer his advice and it would be graciously accepted. The difference between you and him. EGO. QFE! China! MIG bases!!!!! LIONS AND TIGERS AND BEARS OH MY! Get over yourself. A real man would have spent 10 years as an SIC before doing it themselves. :laugh: BTW, how are you going to explain your NJI guys that have been there less than 2 years and are flying international trips as PIC? Get it now? (Im guessing no)

Get over it. You will lose this fight, and you will be my SIC when you fly with me. Game over. Egomaniacs.
 
RTRHD said:
Hawaii is in the States Dude. I am just screwing with ya. :D
Click to expand...

But don't forget to exchange your greenbacks for Hawaiian currency before departing the West Coast. BLAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHA that story brings a smile to my face whenever I think about it! :laugh:
 
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fischman said:
That is an elitist attitude which is complete crap.

Yes. I could get in your gulfstream and fly it around the world, and yes, the owners will get off the plane completely happy.

Sorry, but that attitude and argument is getting OLD. You are not better than me.
Click to expand...


Hey Fisch
I was gonna let DD explain this but, I can't keep my fingers still. If your times are accurate in another 1000 hrs. you might get an interview with us. Opps nevermind not alot of range in those Cessnas. Is that even how you spell Cessna???
 
CE750Driver said:
I love posts like this. I flew PIC with a guy at NJA who flew SR71s around the world in his previous career. NEVER once, did he try and say he should be in command at any time. He would offer his advice and it would be graciously accepted. The difference between you and him. EGO. QFE! China! MIG bases!!!!! LIONS AND TIGERS AND BEARS OH MY! Get over yourself. A real man would have spent 10 years as an SIC before doing it themselves. :laugh: BTW, how are you going to explain your NJI guys that have been there less than 2 years and are flying international trips as PIC? Get it now? (Im guessing no)

Get over it. You will lose this fight, and you will be my SIC when you fly with me. Game over. Egomaniacs.
Click to expand...


Your right those SR guy make the best position reports I have ever heard. They are great with the customs guys also. That must be why they got all those pockets. To carry all that cash since that all you have to do is bribe everyone.
 
RTRHD said:
Hey Fisch
I was gonna let DD explain this but, I can't keep my fingers still. If your times are accurate in another 1000 hrs. you might get an interview with us. Opps nevermind not alot of range in those Cessnas. Is that even how you spell Cessna???
Click to expand...


Looks like I'm going to have to update my profile, and I'm not going to have to interview "with you". As a matter of fact, I've interviewed people who are going to be able to fly your precious gulfstream (as soon as their seniority can hold it) already. They'll do a good job.

Seriously, what makes you think that you can handle some customs officer, and I can't? What a load of crap.

You need to go and re-read this thread. Look at how "high and mighty" you appear. Get off your pulpit. You're a pilot, just like me. Flying is flying.

And yes, I can do your job just like you can do mine.
 
ce750driver said:
i love posts like this. I flew pic with a guy at nja who flew sr71s around the world in his previous career. Never once, did he try and say he should be in command at any time. He would offer his advice and it would be graciously accepted. The difference between you and him. Ego. Qfe! China! Mig bases!!!!! Lions and tigers and bears oh my! Get over yourself. A real man would have spent 10 years as an sic before doing it themselves. :laugh: Btw, how are you going to explain your nji guys that have been there less than 2 years and are flying international trips as pic? Get it now? (im guessing no)

get over it. You will lose this fight, and you will be my sic when you fly with me. Game over. Egomaniacs.
Click to expand...
+1!!!
 
WE REALLY DON'T CARE WHO THE PIC IS!!! Yall won. We lost our NOC yesterday. They can't sell their houses for what is owed. They all bought in the same neighborhood= bunch of houses for sell= They lost tons of money. You can be the PIC THAT is what this tread IS about. What time you want me in the FREAKIN lobby.
THERE ARE BIGGER THINGS GOING ON HERE!!! " Jez it's like playing cards with your brother in law's kids." Tombstone qoute
 
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Funny how some are using FI profiles to belittle others. Well, I don't see fighter time on a lot of your super G pilot profiles. Maybe PIC should be based upon real jet time. Give me a break.

Whatever you guys feel, we are about 45 days from final integration. Just remember to check you ego at FI, and I would highly recommend you don't bring it to the other message board, much less the cockpit. You guys are about to be a very small minority, whatever your seniority number says. Get used to being treated equally.
 
wolfpackpilot said:
Its a strange thing these pointless discussions. But until you fly an airplane into Northern China and do a night approach to minimums in Mountain terrain, QFE (to a MIG Fighter base no less), with no ground base radar vectors... You simply don't get the point. No one said you couldn't learn how to do it, but the thought that you can just take a class and go blast off around the world is ludicrous.

The entire stake of this company rests with our unmatched safety record. And the risk to that safety record multiples triple digits when you leave the United States of America. Get it now?

Wolf
(who spent 3 years flying AROUND the world before being PIC)
Click to expand...

I love how you guys act like you are curing cancer. I agree it takes time to learn how to do these things, but it isn't like any one of you stepped out of the womb with 5,000 hrs in G's and 50 crossings. It isn't hard, just different. Get over yourselves, I know that is hard when your management kept telling you have awesome you are.

Now I think that RTRHD is really pissed because if team "Bubba" is broken up, then he is going to have issues working his little deals. I'm truly torn up about this.
 
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Successfully found Rio - among many other places "around the world" - only to have to make the full NDB approach to mins - am I qualified ? Oh yeah .. it wasn't in an iddy biddy G (compared to what I was flying). Never mind.
 
old*art said:
Successfully found Rio - among many other places "around the world" - only to have to make the full NDB approach to mins - am I qualified ? Oh yeah .. it wasn't in an iddy biddy G (compared to what I was flying). Never mind.
Click to expand...

Lets not mix fruit and veggies here Jay and throw gas on the fire. You have thousand of hours of military flying... and that is the kind of experience I'm talking about.

My posts are directly squarely at the 30 year old types who think international Ops is flying to Mexico. A good 70% of international flying has nothing at all do with flying the aircraft at all. Government regulations, security, local customs, etc etc is what takes time to learn.

But I'm done with this thread. Good luck with your Gulfstream, its obvious where we NJI types stand.
 
Yup. From a pulpit.
 
wolfpackpilot said:
But I'm done with this thread. Good luck with your Gulfstream, its obvious where we NJI types stand.
Click to expand...

Not all of us. I have to take a contrary view here. Unlike some of the NJI guys who have posted here (who were on the V before the A guys started coming over), I had the pleasure of flying with just about all of the first dozen or so NJA PIC transfers. On average, IMHO, they were as prepared to check out as PIC at six months as our homebrews were after three or more years. Nobody coming to the G-IV as PIC fell off the turnip truck yesterday. They’ve been doing fine; just like many of us who rarely leave NA with NJI, but are expected to go anywhere tomorrow if needed (six years since my last Asia trip for instance). It’s always going to be way easier for the guy who has been there and done that a couple of dozen times, but our program is set up to safely send any of our PIC’s just about anywhere at a moment’s notice.

As for the latest contract issue which started this thread, I think us NJI folks are mice in a room filled with rampaging elephants. This mouse is going to find a safe corner, pissed about the loss of money and our wonderful organization, but happy to be getting a very good check in this economy and willing to stack bags and eat the chicken with a smile (even for Fischman, if he can prove that he is indeed awesome).
 
wolfpackpilot said:
But I'm done with this thread. Good luck with your Gulfstream, its obvious where we NJI types stand.
Click to expand...

Sorry bro. On this, you speak for yourself and a minority of NJI guys.

Like Mike Meyers said in Mystery, Alaska: "It ain't rocket surgery."
 
MasterofYaw - Thanks for your post. Refereshing to see someone leave ego at the door here on FI. If you had only flown a Lockheed aircraft with the engines mounted in the correct direction, you'd be just about perfect. :-)

It's a moot point for me since I'll never be senior enough to fly any of the transcon capable aircraft as a PIC. Besides - been there, done that. If I never leave the US as PIC again, it'll be too soon. Too much heartache for the same amount of dollars.
 

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