CAL-UAL Anti-RJ Proposal

[luckytohaveajob]

Scope is the #1 issue. But solving it by asking management to allow FFD contracts to expire and then be assumed by the brand is ludicrous.

Why don't we just ask for world peace while we are at it?

Airlines do very little innovation and have extremely static business plans. Changes like these are five to 10 years of strategy in the making not a union lead request.

Asking for CAL scope at UAL is aggressive but asking for the elimination of all out sourced flying is like asking for the eliminating of all nuclear weapons. Highly unlikely.

 

[johnsonrod]

I have a feeling CAL/UAL MECs will be looking at what the current rate for the regional pilots flying E170s and CR9s right now, and then go for those rates. Thanks to recent stagnation, the pilots flying those planes currently are making higher pay than a few years ago, and that is probably where the MECs will start. It won't be $50 an hour to fly left seat in an E170, rather closer to $80 or $85 an hour for Shuttle America or SkyWest pilots (CR9s) flying the largest equipment they have. They don't have to start over with rates, just look at what is the current market rate, and those guys flying them have been at the Regionals for awhile now.

 

[ASA Captain]

For the record, ASA CR7/9 12 year Captain = $88.29

Yah, shut the place down. HA!

Good luck. Either way I benefit. You get scope, more jobs at the major. You relax scope I have a better career here. Thanks for playing.

 

[johnsonrod]

For the record, ASA CR7/9 12 year Captain = $88.29

Yah, shut the place down. HA!

Good luck. Either way I benefit. You get scope, more jobs at the major. You relax scope I have a better career here. Thanks for playing.

You can have a job after the furloughed pilots come back. But prior to that, you may have to work at the post office. Don't go POSTAL!

 

[doh]

Gold Star Seal of Approval!

 

[skywdriver]

As a regional pilot, I am appalled at how much vindictiveness seems to be out there.

News flash: I don't use a backpack except when out hiking, I don't use hair gel, my shoes are always shined and my shirt always pressed, and I didn't dream of flying an RJ for $40 an hour when I was growing up. I was in high school when the pilots at the majors deemed the "Barbie Jet" too insignificant to fly themselves. If I could have gotten on at a major with 500 or 1000 hours like pilots did in the 90's, I would have done so gladly. Post 911, I was competing with 10,000 hour ATPs for right seat corporate and TP cargo outfits. Getting hired at Great Lakes was an accomplishment then (!) Sorry I didn't decide take the sacrifice some of you guys are alluding to and sit out the regionals in blind hopes that just towing banners and instructing would get me to where I wanted to be eventually.

I have always wanted to get on at a major carrier. I am, however, very very tired and wary of this attitude that I, the EVIL REGIONAL PILOT am somehow the enemy. Your management, with their golden parachutes and their penthouse offices, they are the enemy. The public, who don't care if they're treated like slime and packed like sardines as long as the ticket was $5 cheaper, they are the enemy. We as pilots in general are losing the PR battle while squabbling over "my flying". Sully had the golden moment, the center stage and the public support to point to his (entire) crew's actions and saying "See, this is why we should be properly compensated and respected! Not just for the thousands of times passengers arrive safely EVERY DAY but also for the few times your life might seriously be in jeopardy and we do what we are trained to do." Instead he thumped his chest and maligned regional pilots. Repeatedly. My problem with him is not his suggestion that the public pay more for more experience, I'm all for it. My problem is his overt message is that somehow the only skilled pilots are at mainline. And that ALL pilots at mainline carriers are so skilled. We ALL know that's not the truth.

Do I wish things were different in this industry? Of course I do! I'll say it again, I DO NOT WANT MY CAREER TO BE AT THE REGIONALS. This is supposed to be a stepping stone. It seems to me, however, that the same "pull up the ladder now that I've got mine" mentality that led to 65 exists here. Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly support this if it were actually about making the entire pilot profession stronger, but it's not, as evidenced by the "F the regional pilots" statements here. More than anything else, I wish your managements at AA, Delta, CAL, USAir, and United could figure out a way to actually MAKE MONEY so that they didn't have to outsource, but supply and demand, low barriers to entry in the marketplace, the ability to grease palms at the FAA and cut corners with MX (Southwest) and training (Colgan) and your own overall bloated cost structures, starting at the top with the (mis)management have made it difficult or near impossible over the last, oh, THIRTY YEARS since de-regulation. I feel like nobody else out there took basic economics. What is saddest is that CAL ALPA feel like they can now make the argument that their pay is so low that they can compete with regionals in terms of crew costs... BUT it's not just about the pilot pay. And in a perfect world, there would be no ValueJets, RyanAirs, Southwests, Skybuses, and we could all be protected professionals in a guild and our companies could all charge what it actually costs to provide the level of service we offer. But it's not a perfect world, and wishing won't make it so. So please stop acting like 50 seat scope and bringing the RJ's to mainline will be your panacea.

I am copying my response to another post as it applies here as well. You make some very good points about who the enemy is. I completely agree with you on that, however it just so happens that the changes that need to be made may negatively affect anyone who was planning on spending their career at the regionals.

While there may be some folks out there that are speaking only out of hostility towards the regional industry, I think most are just speaking realistically about where the industry might be headed. The regional industry could see some very very big changes if our next contract caps scope and then slowly pulls it back down. That is just a fact, and when the facts hurt, so be it. The regional industry for the most part (not all of course) has seen pretty solid movement in the positive direction over the past 8 years. It may be a tough wakeup call for them that they also are not immune to the downside of this industry as a whole. I don't wish anything bad for the pilots of these companies, but if it is the difference between them doing CAL/UAL flying, or CAL and UAL pilots doing that flying, that is a no-brainer.

I did take economics, in fact I got my degree in finance. It is supply and demand that back up my statement. True supply and demand doesn't exist due to scope clauses, and thank goodness for all of us that it does not. I am simply saying that if the regionals are no longer able to supply the type of flying that is in demand due to scope restrictions, things are going to change. I would love to see you at CAL/UAL rather than your current airline, building a career that might actually pay you somewhat what you deserve. We have a long fight ahead to restore the pay in addition to fixing scope.

The companies producing the newest "regional" jets are building 90-110 seat airplanes. Those are going to be the hot commodity, and they need to be flown at mainline. There will always be some market for the 50 seat airplanes, but I think a good deal of the 70+ seat flying will be done in the newest small jets as their operating costs will probably be as cheap as the current airplanes. This will most certainly be a game changer if scope does not allow this flying to be done at the regionals. I very much hope you get your chance to make the jump, I think you will find the quality of life, even under the crappy contract that we have now, to be much better. Things in terms of our contract can and will only get better. Best of luck!

 

[skywdriver]

Fine. Scope is where it's at. For argument's sake, will you also negotiate an end to code share? Having a 70-100 seat jet rate means nothing if your management can turn around and say, code share your domestic flying with Republic/Frontier?

If scope gets fixed at all the mainline carriers, and you can bet Delta and American will come after any scope improvements that we get, there won't be any regional flying in these big airplanes to codeshare with. That means the regionals either revert back to the true "regional" service they used to provide, feeding hubs from smaller markets on short haul trips, or that they go out on their own and try to compete against the legacy carriers. My personal opinion is that they would not be wise to try this. Two have already failed at this, and as mergers create bigger and bigger airlines, I think it would be very difficult for a regional airline to shift into a totally difference business model than what they are used to and be able to compete.

Since Frontier is a stand-alone carrier, that is a different story. I don't really know if that might be a way around all of this for management, but my guess is that the new scope clauses will address this issue with limitations.

 

[FR8dognit]

"F. CODESHARING
1. General
Flying pursuant to a Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement is only permitted so long as the
requirements of this Agreement are satisfied.
The Company and the Association recognize the primary goal of a Codeshare Agreement
and/or Marketing Agreement is the continued growth of SWA and the SWA Master Pilot
Seniority List by providing passenger feed to Company flights and to establish, maintain,
and/or enhance the Company’s overall market presence.
a. Flying conducted under the terms of a Codeshare Agreement and/or Marketing
Agreement by non-Company pilots shall not be performed on aircraft owned, leased,
Page 1-4
Section 1: Purpose of Agreement
operated, held on order or held on option by the Company or its Affiliates.
b. Revenue Guarantee: Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreements shall not include revenue
guarantees by SWA for the benefit of a Codeshare partner such as block space or cost
plus arrangements. Any exceptions to this restriction must first be discussed with and
agreed to by the Association.
c. Investment: Investment in a Codeshare partner by the Company shall not be used to
establish a de facto subsidiary or alter ego carrier in circumvention of the intent and
purpose of the Scope and Recognition provisions in Section 1.A. and 1.B.
d. Assistance: If the Company provides financial assistance and/or goods and/or services to
a Codeshare partner, the Company shall charge the Codeshare partner at no less than
prevailing market/industry rates for such assistance and/or goods and/or services. Any
exceptions to these restrictions must first be discussed with and agreed to by the
Association.
e. Furlough: There shall be no furlough of any pilot on the SWA Master Pilot Seniority List
as a result of any Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement.
2. Domestic Codeshare
Southwest Airlines will not enter into a domestic Codeshare Agreement within the fifty (50)
United States without the agreement of the Association.
3. Codeshare for Regional Aircraft Flying
Southwest Airlines will not enter into any domestic or trans-border code share agreement
with a regional carrier or involving a regional aircraft except to provide inter-island service
within the Hawaiian Islands or inter-island service within the Caribbean Islands.
4. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare
a. Near International/Trans-Border Codeshare will be defined exclusively as Codeshare
flights that include a trans-border segment between Canada, Mexico or the Caribbean and
a SWA city in the continental United States.
b. The combined total trans-border segment ASMs flown by SWA Near
International/Trans-Border Codeshare partners pursuant to Near International/Trans-
Border Agreements with SWA shall not exceed a total of four (4) percent of the total
ASMs flown by SWA in the previous calendar year, excluding ASMs flown by SWA on
Near International/Trans-Border flights, as measured on a one for one ASM basis, to
include each common city pair.
i. The measure of SWA ASMs will be calculated using the ASMs reported in the
SWA annual report unless another method is mutually agreed upon by SWA and
SWAPA.
Page 1-5
Section 1: Purpose of Agreement
5. Other Codeshare
The Company will not enter into any other Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement (to
include far international Codeshare flying) unless expressly delineated above, without the
agreement of the Association.
6. Distribution Agreements
a. The Company may distribute, via its website or other means, other carriers’ flights to and
from Hawaii and international cities that in no way purport to be flown by the Company.
b. The Company will not engage in the distribution, via its website or other means, of other
carriers’ flights on domestic routes, for the duration of this Agreement. The parties will
then readdress this issue.
7. Communication
The Company agrees to meet and confer with the Association in a timely fashion regarding
any proposed Codeshare and/or Marketing Agreement or Distribution Agreement or changes
to any existing Agreement prior to concluding and implementing any such Agreement or
change. The Company will provide the Association, in a timely manner, a final draft of any
Codeshare Memorandum of Understanding (MOU), agreement, or amendment prior to
signing and will, upon request, meet and confer with the Association regarding same.
The Company agrees to demonstrate to SWAPA that any Codeshare and/or Marketing
Agreement is not being used as a substitute for Company B737 aircraft growth.
G. CABOTAGE
The Company shall not allow its code to be used on flights of foreign carriers carrying local
revenue passengers or cargo traffic between airports within the United States or its territories."

This is what ours looks like....y'all go get em'. Nothing against the regional guys, but it would help everyone.

 

[ASA Captain]

Rod,

If your furloughees aren't back by the time this could possibly begin, you are in bad shape and I wouldn't be applying because you wouldn't be hiring.

It's called logic. Try it for once.

 

[FLYLOW22]

For the record, ASA CR7/9 12 year Captain = $88.29

Yah, shut the place down. HA!

Good luck. Either way I benefit. You get scope, more jobs at the major. You relax scope I have a better career here. Thanks for playing.

88 bucks an hour is right seater at year 2 pay. Good luck!!