CAL-Skywest Code Share - Facts

[BluDevAv8r]

I posted this on the other CAL/SKYW thread...but I didn't want it to get lost amongst the 100ish other messages and the many rumors and unfounded information that was posted.

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Many rumors are floating around about the Continental codeshare with Skywest. Here are some facts.

- Continental Airlines is in active negotiations to utilize Skywest Airlines in Houston to serve small cities in the region with 30 seat turboprops

- Some of this flying is currently being conducted by ExpressJet Airlines dba Continental Express using 37 and 50 seat jets. All of this flying used to be conducted by Continental Express using turboprops, prior to the retirement of all props in December 2002.

- As per the CAL ALPA Turboprop MOU between Continental Airlines, ExpressJet Airlines, and CAL ALPA, CAL ALPA must agree to all terms and conditions related to any new turboprop flying above and beyond the Commutair flying in CLE. This "Meet and Agree" provision is above and beyond the Scope Section of the Continental Airlines Pilot's CBA.

- The Turboprop MOU for CLE (Commutair) required that Commutair hire (based on an informal "entry interview") ExpressJet pilots who are on furlough.

- The CLE MOU provided 3 benefits to CAL ALPA and its members.
1. Jobs for furloughed pilots at Commutair
2. Eliminated the 6 month waiting period for furloughed ExpressJet pilots to regain health and other benefits upon their recall to ExpressJet.
3. Provided for a "meet and agree" provision for any further prop flying by Continental or its affiliates.

- 33 of the pilots who selected to go to Commutair are being paid by Continental Airlines to not go to Commutair training due to the proximity of their recall date to ExpressJet. Unfortunately, some of those 33 were slated to start ExpressJet class in May and had their recall class cancelled. They are still being paid and not at Commutair.

- Active negotiations are ongoing at this time between CAL ALPA and Continental Airlines regarding turboprop flying in Houston. CAL ALPA retains the right to reject this deal outright if the terms and conditions are not satisfactory to CAL ALPA.

- If Skywest wants this deal and additional revenue, it will have to agree to the terms and conditions set forth in a future MOU/LOA by Continental Airlines and CAL ALPA.

- The terms and conditions are not finalized so any and all rumors that you are hear are simply false.

- CAL ALPA has temporarily allowed Continental Airlines to let Skywest conduct VCT service due to a time-critical EAS deadline. VCT is contingent upon the rest of the deal being finalized in the coming month.

It is critical that people do not get "wrapped around the axle" on this issue right now. Please rely on factual information from credible sources and not simply "crew room banter." Crew Room banter only serves to raise your blood pressure unnecessarily. Many people are working hard on this deal trying to find a solution that will benefit the 3 parties involved (Skywest Airlines corporation, Continental Airlines corporation, and the pilots of CAL ALPA - both CAL and CALEX pilots).

For those pilots who need more information about this deal (particularly furloughed and active ExpressJet pilots), please call down to the CAL ALPA office in Houston. For those XJT pilots reading this, if you are in the Houston area this week, you can also attend the IAH LEC 175 meeting on Thursday for more information.

 

[embdrvr]

- If Skywest wants this deal and additional revenue, it will have to agree to the terms and conditions set forth in a future MOU/LOA by Continental Airlines and CAL ALPA.

So here's a what-if scenario for you. Let's the say the MEC plays hardball and insists that their furloughed pilots be hired without formal interview ala Commutair? SkyWest says no we don't want to push our pilot group over the edge end end up with a union on the property. Both parties back away from the table. SkyWest regrets not being able to snag the additional revenue but still has a whole lot of Delta and UAL flying to do.
Continental still wants turboprops to fly those routes though. Perhaps they place a call to that gentleman in New Mexico, Mr. Ornstein. Turns out Mr. Ornstein could care less about pi$$ing off his pilot group and says sure we can work something out.
End result - Furloughed pilots go back to work at less desirable company for less money.
Be careful what you wish for.

 

[Bjet Driver]

Embdrvr-

Read the post again. IT SAYS..................

- As per the CAL ALPA Turboprop MOU between Continental Airlines, ExpressJet Airlines, and CAL ALPA, CAL ALPA must agree to all terms and conditions related to any new turboprop flying above and beyond the Commutair flying in CLE.

Doesn't matter if it's Skywest, Mesa, or Southwest- if our MEC doesn't agree to it, it won't happen.

 

[maddog805]

Hey Bjet, before you go firing off with the attitude maybe YOU should read embdrvr's post again. All he is saying is if SkyWest doesn't agree to the terms, you guys MIGHT be stuck with some bottom-feeding carrier doing the service instead. If that sounds apealing to you, I hear mesa is accepting applications.

 

[captjim]

Hey Bjet, before you go firing off with the attitude maybe YOU should read embdrvr's post again. All he is saying is if SkyWest doesn't agree to the terms, you guys MIGHT be stuck with some bottom-feeding carrier doing the service instead. If that sounds apealing to you, I hear mesa is accepting applications.

maddog805, you might want to reread Bjet's quote again. The Calalpa MEC has the final says as to the conditions. If the MEC doesn't want Mesa, they just say no.

 

[EMBATP]

other airlines

as a coex pilot, i want to see our guys back flying as soon as possible, whether at skywest or wherever, but i'm worried that letting these guys get their foot in the door with CAL will end up like a Delta Connection Inc. type deal. expressjet should do all flying for CAL, turboprop or not. doesn't this come under ALPA's " career expectations and enhancements/protection?"

 

[Bjet Driver]

Maddog,

It was not my intention to sound arrogant in my response. If that's how it was percieved- I apologize. However, you still seem confused about the MOU agreement between CAL, XJT, and our union. It simply says that we (XJT pilots, represented by our MEC) must agree to ALL TERMS OF THE FLYING. It also says we have the right to reject the deal outright, if we don't agree with the terms. We have protected ourselves from the scenario mentioned here. We won't get stuck with a bottom feeding carrier unless we open the door and welcome them in ourselves and that won't happen. What will happen remains to be seen.

 

[George Jetson]

There's 2 questions and issues here:

Will CAL ALPA agree to a deal involving turboprops in Houston?

How badly does Skywest Airlines, Inc. want this additional revenue?

Clearly CAL ALPA has a price in mind and that price will most likely include (as told to me by ALPA representatives) not only jobs for CALEX furloughed pilots but probably the Captain seats as well. It will also include some sort of seat limitations as well as limitations on the cities and amount of aircraft hulls, etc.

Granted, Skywest Airlines will have to take into account the welfare and feelings of its own pilot group on this issue, but being that SKYW is non-union, the pilot group does not have an official say on this manner.

At the end of the day, Continental Airlines just wants the incremental revenue of these small towns. Skywest needs to figure out what its price is and CAL ALPA needs to figure out what its bottomline is. Make no mistake about it, CAL ALPA has been under a lot of pressure from the CALEX pilot membership about the Commutair prop MOU and other representational issues. CALEX pilots are feeling pretty militant right now and are NOT happy about current cities going to another airline, especially with pilots on the street. This deal better be pretty sweet or else the CALEX pilots on the MEC won't sign off on it...and maybe even the CAL pilots.

This deal could very easily blow up, whether it involves Skywest or another airline. I suggest that some of the Skywest pilots read this very seriously because the hiring situation (poolies, etc) is out of their hands at the moment. It is in the hands of their management, CAL ALPA, and Continental Airlines, inc.

 

[JBcrjca]

If the deal involves CAL Ex guys getting captain seats at SkyWest, then I'm 99% sure that SkyWest won't go along with the deal. The SKW pilots would revolt, and SKW mgmt tries hard to keep the pilots happy in situations like this. It's their way of trying to keep a union off the property. The same thing happened when USAir approached SKW about the J4J program. After putting it to a vote by the pilot group, mgmt politely rejected the offer. I'm pretty sure the same thing will happen in this situation. Even with SKW being non-union, the company has a pretty good working relationship with the crews.

This is my humble opinion of course, and I've been known to be wrong from time to time.

 

[MONKEY]

HELP ME UNDERSTAND

I would like to know why SKW pilots would be offended if SkyWest Airlines decided to go through with this deal, even if every seat where to be filled by coex pilots. SkyWest pilots would not get the flying if SkyWest Airlines declined the offer. Would they really want the flying to go to someone like mesa?

It seams to me that if SKW where to fly these routes, eventually the COEX guys would go back to work flying for COEX, and then the seats would be filled by SKW guys.

It sounds like a good deal to me. You get the COEX guys back to work right away and then in a year or two all the seats would eventually be filled by SKW. That sounds like a win win to me.

 

[skywestdrvr]

Jeepman,
You can't be serious if you don't know why SkyWest Pilots would be upset if SkyWest picked up all this flying and not offered at all to current pilots on the Seniority list. I don't mind helping out with pilots on the street as long as seniority is in place.

 

[skywestdrvr]

Sorry, previous reply was for Monkey!

 

[JBcrjca]

Monkey, if you don't understand the reasons, then you must not have been in the airline industry very long. It's all about the sacred seniority list. Not many issues gets pilots panties in a bunch like the abrogation of a seniority list.

Look at the many mergers/buyouts that have occurred over the years (Pan Am/National, Northwest/Republic, American/Reno Air/TWA, Delta/Pan Am, just to name a few). Some huge court battles have been fought over protecting pilots seniority. The old bluebloods at Pan Am almost $hit their pants when they saw the Gill Award...5 year National captains ended up senior to 15 year Pan Am FEs, for example.

We all hate to see pilots on the street looking for work, nobody is arguing that point. I was furloughed briefly once, it's no fun. But you have to keep seniority in mind when new flying is awarded... offer the IAH flying to current pilots on the SkyWest list, and if none of them want it? Then it goes way junior to newly hired CALEx furloughees. But you HAVE to let the seniority system work as it was intended. Otherwise, the SkyWest pilots would just as soon see the flying go to Mesa.

This is sad....I have entirely too much spare time today!

 

[surplus1]

Jeepman,
You can't be serious if you don't know why SkyWest Pilots would be upset if SkyWest picked up all this flying and not offered at all to current pilots on the Seniority list. I don't mind helping out with pilots on the street as long as seniority is in place.

skywestdrvr,

Unfortunately my friend he is serious. This so-called "deal" is nothing more than an extension of ALPA's "Jets for Jobs" protocols. Now they are moving it into "Props for Jobs".

Keep in mind that ALPA had no problem whatever with forcing the abrogation of seniorty at carriers that it already "represents". Why would they worry about abrogating the seniority of Skywest's pilots?

By now, It should be pretty obvious to everyone that ALPA is not it the least concerned about the seniority of "regional pilots", to them it has no value. They have already coerced six ALPA represented airlines into accepting this garbage. The APA is emulating them by stealing the seniority of Eagle pilots (whom ALPA "represents") and they aren't even saying anything about it let alone doing anything.

If they can succeed it forcing Skywest pilots to relinquish their seniority as well, they will do so in a heartbeat.

What's really ironic is that many of the posters from the CAL side are bad-mouthing the possibility that Mesa pilots might get this flying if you at SKYW don't fall for this ploy. Guess who represents Mesa pilots --- ALPA. They're calling their ALPA brothers at Mesa "bottom feeders" for accepting an ALPA-recommended contract. They have already succeeded in getting the Mesa pilots to give up their seniority in J4J, which leaves you ripe for the picking.

This is truly incredible but nothing that ALPA does surprises me anymore. What does surprise me is the blissful ignorance that allows them to get away with it.

I hope SKYW pilots will have the strength to reject this garbage and that your management will continue to support you.

I've seen references to the idea that management supports SKYW pilots to "keep you from going union." I have to ask the obvious; what "union" would you go to, to protect yourself from seniority theft? ALPA? That has to be the biggest and best joke there is. Would it be the IBT? ALPA has already managed to run over them, overturn the vote of Chautauqua pilots and force them to give up their seniority in favor of USAirways pilots.

It really gets low when a labor union is willing to openly steal the seniority of its own members as well as that of other union members and non-union pilots to give it to its more favored membership segment. Maybe you guys should rush to join ALPA so that it will be easier for them to shaft you too.

I wish you the best at SKYW. Hope you'll tell them to shove it where the sun don't shine.

 

[Obi-Wan]

Here is a rumor that is gonna piss off a few people. Skywest gets the Houston deal. Coex/CAL system wide bid and all the flying including the captain saets are fiiled by them until enough positions are available for everyone to go back. As these pilots go back to CAL skywest pilots fill in the positions. Lets not forget what would happen if United liquidates and if skywest pilots get pissed off and want a union that looks out for thier interest like ALPA does for coex, good for them. If skywest does not take the deal someone else will. They will probably get a good deal from CAL . Commutair was offered a free lease on the 120's for one year.

 

[Company Man]

Just wondering where you heard about the "free lease for a year?"

 

[George Jetson]

Unfortunately my friend he is serious. This so-called "deal" is nothing more than an extension of ALPA's "Jets for Jobs" protocols. Now they are moving it into "Props for Jobs".

Surplus,

Sometimes you are on the ball and other times you miss it entirely. The Skywest-CAL deal has nothing to do with "ALPA National." Nothing at all. CAL ALPA has a "meet and agree" clause that was negotiated BY both the CAL and CALEX Negotiating Committee's. By virtue of that, CAL ALPA (CAL and CALEX) have the right to say "go get bent" to Continental Airlines on any further prop flying in Houston. Naturally, there is a price attached in the eyes of CAL ALPA. This is a VERY important issue to the Continental Express pilot group. Jobs and job security and career enhancement is important to our pilot group. That is/was our flying and we will do whatever it takes to lock in that flying for our pilots, even if it isn't in our airplanes. This has nothing to do with some ALPA National boogeyman agenda. Quit being so paranoid. ALPA National has zero hands in this cookie jar.

GJ

 

[General Lee]

Commutair got a deal on E120's? I haven't seen them in the OAG flying out of CLE yet. Also, Skywest and other companies right now are being squeezed by their Major partners, and are looking for additional revenue. I think Skywest would take this deal even if it included Calex pilots flying them. The only question would be who is going to train the Calex pilots? Skywest? That would be odd and interesting. But, remember that Calex has to agree to all of this since it is in their contract I believe. I believe they stated that all CAL regional flying out of their 3 hubs---IAH, CLE, and EWR was to be done by Calex. If CAL opened up a new hub--like DEN--then someone else could fly it I believe. It will be interesting indeed. Scope turns out to be really important, huh? Tell us about it.

Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[hotwing]

General Lee -- no clue

Wrong, wrong, wrong...

General Lee -- Please get factual info before you start sending out info... I do not think that you know everything about your topic of discussion here...

 

[trip]

This will get real interesting when SKYW buys CALEX--standby for more to follow

 

[surplus1]

Surplus,
Sometimes you are on the ball and other times you miss it entirely.

Thanks, now if I can just hit 501 out of 1000 or 51 our of 100, do I win the game?

The Skywest-CAL deal has nothing to do with "ALPA National." Nothing at all. CAL ALPA has a "meet and agree" clause that was negotiated BY both the CAL and CALEX Negotiating Committee's. By virtue of that, CAL ALPA (CAL and CALEX) have the right to say "go get bent" to Continental Airlines on any further prop flying in Houston. Naturally, there is a price attached in the eyes of CAL ALPA. This is a VERY important issue to the Continental Express pilot group. Jobs and job security and career enhancement is important to our pilot group. That is/was our flying and we will do whatever it takes to lock in that flying for our pilots, even if it isn't in our airplanes. This has nothing to do with some ALPA National boogeyman agenda. Quit being so paranoid. ALPA National has zero hands in this cookie jar.
GJ

1. Jobs and job security should be the number one issue for your pilot group and every other pilot group. I agree with that. It is not what you want that is wrong, it is what you're willing to do to get it. The time to protect your job security was before the fact, not after. Jobs for you should not be obtained by taking them from someone else.

If SKYW (or anyone else) gets new business, the jobs associated with that new business should go first to Skywest pilots in order of their seniority, not to you. When Skywest does not have enough of their own pilots to fill the jobs and must hire new pilots, then and only then, is it ligitimate for you to ask that they give you preference for those jobs. If you can get your Company to make that a condition of the contract, that's OK too. In that case, you go to the bottom of their list like any other new Skywest pilot. Otherwise, you have no right whatever to ANY Captain's slots or to any job at Skywest. Want them to hire you in preference to an off-the-street new hire (because the jobs are a contract with your company) then that's ok and you become a Skywest pilot. Want to keep seniority at SKYW and CAL and XJT at the same time? BS.

Dual seniority at more than one employer is highly questionable from a legal point of view and may even violate the ALPA C&BL. It creates a multitude of industrial problems. Yes, they can be ignored. ALPA is good at ignoring lots of things when it wants to. But, that won't last forever. Sooner or later somebody will have to pay the piper.

2. Yes, the flying was yours, the key word being was. It's not yours any more. Actually it doesn't even exist. Growth at a different airline belongs to that airline, not to you.

When you wanted your company to go "all jet" you were not worring any about the turboprop flying and for whatever reason did not secure that flying. Now the tide has turned and your company is getting back into the turboprop business and you have pilots on the street. Hindsight suddenly becomes 20/20 and you now want back the flying that you gave up willingly. Guess what? You're normal.

Back in 91, my pilot group was negotiating for a new contract just as you are. Some of the leaders told the pilots that the most important contractual improvement they could get was securing their jobs. That they should protect themselves against the sale of the company and the farming out of their work. Guess what? They didn't agree and they went for the money and the jets instead. They got both, but it was a huge mistake. They made the wrong choice and we are now exposed to great risk.

They didn't see that the little gold fish might be gobbled up by a big shark. They believed that if that did happen, the big shark would love its meal and they could swim happily in its belly and become as one. They never imagined that the big shark might stop them from swimming all together if it felt like it. They believed they would be "embraced" and "loved" by their brothers in Atlanta and they would all be flying for the big shark making mucho bucks while everyone sang Kumbaya. Well, when the shark ate the goldfish they suddenly found out that their brothers only objective was to digest them and then excrete them. They were not "embraced", they were not "loved", there was no bonding and they were not "brothers". They were called and treated as interlopers, seniority grabbers, etc., etc., and the only thing their new "family" wanted to do was get rid of them, but of course keep their airplanes and their flying in the process. If their "brothers" couldn't do that because "the man" wouldn't let them, they settled for second best -- trying to stop our growth.

3. You wanted a flow-through and you got it. YOU made an agreement to go to the bottom of another list, and YOU made an agreement to let the other group go to the top of your list. When you were "flowing" to CAL you were happy. Now that CAL is flowing back to you, you are unhappy. You want it both ways. Well you gambled and you lost. Sh*t happens. Don't want to get it all over you, don't play in it.

Think CAL wanted that "agreement" because they liked you and thought of you as "brothers"? If that was the case there would not have been a 1:3 ratio, there would have been no "interview" (for a job you already had) and there would not be any "off-the-street pilots" ahead of you. It would have been flow up to the bottom, flow back to the bottom. You weren't "brothers" you were foster kids that were not wanted. The agreement was signed for one reason only, furlough protection for CAL. They got what they wanted and so did you at the time. Today, you are simply getting what you agreed to and so are they.

That is exactly why we would never agree to that type of flow-through. We knew what it would mean in the event of a downturn and we were not willing to pay that price and buy a pig in a poke. If we had not seen the danger and instead blindly grabbed for the candy, 3/4 of our list could be on the street today. It is always better to remain a small fish in your own pond than to be a fish with no pond at all. To each his own.

4. Want to get your turboprop flying back? Great, I have NO problem with that. Do it by forcing your Company to put those aircraft on the XJT certificate, just like they were before. Then you will have access to 100% of them and you can put your furloughed pilots back to work. You won't have to worry about Commutair or Gulfstream or Skywest or anybody else. That's the right way to do it.

5. Allowing your company to subcontract your flying to another airline and then demanding that your pilots be forced onto their seniority list with super seniority of any kind is just plain wrong. You gave up what you didn't want when times were good and now that times are bad you want to save yourself and correct your mistake by taking away the rights of others. That's wrong.

You are attempting to do to SKYW pretty much the same thing that the APA is doing to Eagle. You have alredy done it (according to you) to Commutair. You are attempting to do to SKYW the very same thing that ALPA has done to ALG, PDT, PSA, MDW, MES and CHQ, i.e., steal seniority and steal new jobs. The APA is wrong about that; ALPA is wrong about that; and you will be wrong if you emulate them.

6. As for ALPA not having anything to do with it well, if you really believe that I feel sorry for you. Your negotiating committee, CAL's negotiating committee, your combined MEC and any and everything you do in terms of negotiations or contracts, requires the approval of the ALPA and the signature of its President. You can't make any contractual agreement without the approval of the ALPA. They don't have their "hand in the cookie jar" my friend, they own the cookie jar and you are nothing more than pawns in the chess game of the big players. If that's what you want to be, it's OK with me. Just don't fool yourself into believing its something else.

ALPA would love to have you secure a "Props for Jobs" protocol. What that does is give them the opportunity to "use" you one more time. They used you to get the ICAP merger, they used you in the single-MEC to ensure CAL control, and they're using you now to support their "Jets for Jobs" concept. If they can get an "ALPA" regional to screw some other regional(s), like they got the mainline to screw regionals, that will allow them to say: "See, we aren't doing anything wrong, that's how it's supposed to work, when you don't have what you want you just take it from somebody that has it. The regionals are doing it just like the mainliners are doing it, so it must be A-OK. Forcing your way onto another pilot groups seniority list is the way to go. Once we establish that precedent, the mainline carriers will never have to worry about furloughs again, they can just move down to the regionals. When we run out of seniority slots to steal, guess who will be on the street? It won't be "us", it will be them.

I'm not paranoid my friend, I'm just old enough to see both the trees and the forest.

 

[BLWME]

ALPA Sells out Regionals, WHAT

WHO SAID THAT

 

[hotwing]

SURPLUS1

Great relpy -- awesome !!!!!!!!!!!!

It is amazng what a little education and experience in the subject matter will do for you and his post is dead on (not speculatory -- but factual and based off of common sense and not emotionally driven)... Thanks!

 

[JBcrjca]

Wow, can I get an 'AMEN' for brother Surplus1???? That was beautiful man, almost brought a tear to my eye. I'm serious, that was the best post I've read so far on the CAL-SkyWest issue. Points #4 and 5 are my two favorites. XJT pilots want to do that turboprop flying? Fine, have your company go to Roswell and dust off the E120s and ATRs parked there. Put them back on line, retrain the crews...you can have every Capt and FO seat for your own pilots. Otherwise, any other carrier contracted to do the IAH flying can and should tell CAL ALPA to go pound sand. If that results in no deal, so be it. It's simple...no abrogation of another carriers seniority list.

Nice work, Surplus1.

 

[Skyward]

CAL ALPA isn’t proposing abrogating anyone’s seniority list. The plan is for XJT pilots to be contracted to do the flying. We would all remain on the XJT seniority list not the SkyWest seniority list.

 

[hotwing]

SKYWARD !@#$

Come on sir -- do you really think that will "fly"?

 

[Skyward]

It will have to because that is the deal.

 

[hotwing]

"will be" -- not so fast

Then maybe it just will not happen at all. I do not think that there is a deal. Kinda like your SSL -- dead in the water... I hope for the best but, I think that it is not going to be as cut and dry as you think...

 

[Skyward]

Well we'll find out more after this weeks MEC meeting, but I don't think my union will be giving away any jobs. Like I've said before this is what I've been told by my reps so don't shoot the messenger.

 

[embdrvr]

How can a union "give away" jobs that don't exist? Last I checked XJET isn't flying turbprops. Maybe your MEC needs to negotiate a deal to protect your current positions by insuring that existing jet flying does not get reduced as a result of turboprop supplements.
If your MEC pursues the "all or nothing" strategy that many of you are advocating I think more of your pilots will probably end up on the street. The other scenario will be your company agrees to all of your terms and you find yourselves flying for Great Lakes.