CAL pilots picketing.... or something like that..

[EWR_FO]

Short term gains? The combination of UAL/CAL has the potential to be by far the world's most powerful airline. The synergies of this merger are way better than that of DAL/NWA. That's why they've been so quiet. They are secretly hoping you guys(pilots vs management, pilots vs pilots{747/777 issue} destroy each other.

I understand the pilots are bitter about the Air Lingus issue and the 1400 furloughs. But fighting management and burning the airline to the ground will not make anything better.

By replacing a 50 seater with a 70 seater(not adding a 70 seater, but REPLACING a 50 seater) the company makes more money, and adds more feed onto MAINLINE aircraft, which eventually could(or in Delta's case, will) result in adding more mainline aircraft due to increased feed, or replace over performing 70-76 seat flying with mainline. Just look at the ATL-MDW route for Delta as an example. That route used to be exclusively an E175 and CRJ900 route. The regional aircraft re-energized that market to the point that growth exceeded the airplane size and an Airbus A319 had to be put on the route.

Examples like this is the reason Delta has hired and will continue to hire for the foreseeable future. This same success can be replicated at the new United. But if the pilots choose to continue to fight with management AND fight with each other they are doing nothing except hurting their image, their job stability, and their own pocketbook.

If you think that is why Delta is hiring, trying to rationalize anything to you is hopeless. The MBA a-holes who run these companies only look at one thing -cost. They could give a s**t about long term investment, THAT is why they want 70 seaters. This is nothing more than a test of wills because if they folded without a fight, they would have to explain why they folded to the BOD's. The economics of 50 seat jets are dead, with the 70 seaters not far behind- $85 per barrel oil has put a fork in them. They know it, we know it, and Wall Street knows it.

 

[SFR]

How is the article laughable? It would be a good idea for mainline pilots, especially union leaders to take a course in economics, or at least talk to Lee Moak.

Regionals do not fly 777s or any other kind of large mainline jet because they carry more people and allow for enough revenue to pay a mainline wage. The profit margins on 50 and 70 aircraft are already too thin to pay a mainline wage on it.

I guess CAL/UAL pilots can fly the 70 seaters if they really want to, but the airline will not be profitable unless mainline pilots take deep concessions to fly them. If CAL/UAL pilots are that desperate to fly to KLFT for $80 bucks and hr in the left seat and $40 bucks in the right, so be it I guess. But you can kiss SWA type wages and any hope your airline competing with Delta away.

You say ask 1400 pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out for them I say ask 300 pilots this year and 300-600 pilots next year at Delta how good 70-76 seat flying turned out for them. If CAL's ironclad 50 seat scope is so strong and powerful why has Delta hired and CAL hasn't? By your logic Delta should have furloughed 2,000+ because of the 900s and the E175s

Lee Moak realized that a strong regional network meant a stronger mainline. Now Delta is adding MD-90s like crazy and replacing regional aircraft with mainline. Capt Jay Pierce sounds absolutely ridiculous when he states that management replacing a 50 seat jet with a 70 seat jet(no loss of mainline jobs) is a way for the company to add more seats and make more money. Seriously Jay?!? Add to the fact that both MEC chairmen are publicly throwing jabs are each other makes the pilots look very very bad.

Here's and idea for your MEC. Freeze the number of regional aircraft. Let management decide whatever aircraft size between 50 and 76 seats for that set number of aircraft they want. As a trade-off, make management give the pilots some of the additional revenue the company earned off the larger regionals thru higher pay and better work rules. That should get the new CAL/UAL JCBA somewhere close or better than SWA/Fedex/UPS.

By doing this I guarantee all 1400 pilots on furlough will be back within 2 years and hiring will start

This issue is that the 70 seat jobs need to be with mainline, period. Sure they will pay less than the 737, as long as the ratio makes sense with seat/pay.

Adding jobs at any regional does not benefit the mainline group at all.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

777forever,

What you say above theoretically has some merit, but there are two big factors you fail to account for that makes your entire argument moot.

1. THE CAL PILOT CONTRACT PROHIBITS THE FLYING OF 70 SEAT JETS OUT OF OUR HUBS! If Mgt wants to fly 70 seaters out of out hubs, they can:
a: buy all the 70 seaters they want to be flown by us;
b: negotiate scope in the JCBA to allow said 70 seat flying. Not likely
IMHO, but almost everyone has their price to be bought off.
c: blatantly violate our current contract and dare us to stop them.
Options a and b could have provided for 70 seaters out of our hubs, but not surprisingly mgt chose option c, to go to war with us. If we won't even enforce what little good we have in our current POS contract, how can we expect them to take our future saber rattling seriously when the JCBA negotiations approach endgame?

2. CAL mgt runs the new UAL, not DAL mgt! DAL is run by the former CAL guys, you know, from worst to first and all that? Operationally minded guys that want to run an airline and expand, not run an accounting firm? The new UAL (current CAL) mgt is beancounters and lawyers, who have never found an aircraft too small to fly on any given route. Whose idea of appropriate service for such podunk villages as ATL from the largest metropolitan area in the country (EWR) is 2 737-500s and 6 RJs a day, compared to the ELEVEN MAINLINE flights flown by DAL! Allowing more 70 seaters into our system will NOT lead to more feed providing for more mainline aircraft, it will lead to less feed as mainline aircraft are parked and replaced, just like with the 50 seat RJ explosion 10 years ago. We may soon be the largest airline in the world, but I dont see our mgt's small airline mentality going away.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

This issue is that the 70 seat jobs need to be with mainline, period. Sure they will pay less than the 737, as long as the ratio makes sense with seat/pay.

Adding jobs at any regional does not benefit the mainline group at all.

OMG, a logical, agreeable, non-inflammatory post! Did someone log on to your username while you're in the john droppin' a D?

 

[SFR]

OMG, a logical, agreeable, non-inflammatory post! Did someone log on to your username while you're in the john droppin' a D?

I never claimed to be against scope, I just think that picketing is a waste of effort.

We need to get a negotiating team that has the know how and skill to get an iron clad contract, including an iron clad scope.

The problem is that our union has pilots doing some negotiating...that is rediculous and it is an insult. I say let the pilots fly the planes and hire professionals to do the negotiating in our contracts...

 

[EWR_FO]

The problem is that our union has pilots doing some negotiating...that is rediculous and it is an insult. I say let the pilots fly the planes and hire professionals to do the negotiating in our contracts...

You obviously have no idea of the make up of the negotiating team, do a little research and you'll realize how stupid you sound.

 

[sleeves]

How is the article laughable? It would be a good idea for mainline pilots, especially union leaders to take a course in economics, or at least talk to Lee Moak.

Regionals do not fly 777s or any other kind of large mainline jet because they carry more people and allow for enough revenue to pay a mainline wage. The profit margins on 50 and 70 aircraft are already too thin to pay a mainline wage on it.

I guess CAL/UAL pilots can fly the 70 seaters if they really want to, but the airline will not be profitable unless mainline pilots take deep concessions to fly them. If CAL/UAL pilots are that desperate to fly to KLFT for $80 bucks and hr in the left seat and $40 bucks in the right, so be it I guess. But you can kiss SWA type wages and any hope your airline competing with Delta away.

You say ask 1400 pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out for them I say ask 300 pilots this year and 300-600 pilots next year at Delta how good 70-76 seat flying turned out for them. If CAL's ironclad 50 seat scope is so strong and powerful why has Delta hired and CAL hasn't? By your logic Delta should have furloughed 2,000+ because of the 900s and the E175s

Lee Moak realized that a strong regional network meant a stronger mainline. Now Delta is adding MD-90s like crazy and replacing regional aircraft with mainline. Capt Jay Pierce sounds absolutely ridiculous when he states that management replacing a 50 seat jet with a 70 seat jet(no loss of mainline jobs) is a way for the company to add more seats and make more money. Seriously Jay?!? Add to the fact that both MEC chairmen are publicly throwing jabs are each other makes the pilots look very very bad.

Here's and idea for your MEC. Freeze the number of regional aircraft. Let management decide whatever aircraft size between 50 and 76 seats for that set number of aircraft they want. As a trade-off, make management give the pilots some of the additional revenue the company earned off the larger regionals thru higher pay and better work rules. That should get the new CAL/UAL JCBA somewhere close or better than SWA/Fedex/UPS.

By doing this I guarantee all 1400 pilots on furlough will be back within 2 years and hiring will start

Yep, without negotiating in pubic, the rate for the "Regional" flying needs to be competitive with what it is being done at now when it is brought back to mainline. Much better then paying your competition to do your flying. I am not looking for a short term payday in exchange for scope relief. No amount of money would entice me to sign away scope.

I was at an express carrier when we went to jets to increase the feed to mainline. We were there to "Build up the route" so that mainline could take it over. We were going to "Increase feed to the hubs by getting paxs to the hub from places we did not currently fly to." Ya know what really happen? We took over a crap load of routes that used to be mainline. They shrunk, we grew. I have heard it all before.
Following your logic, we at CAL are hiring back our furloughed pilots and do not allow the 70 seaters. United has had 70 seaters for some time and it has 1400 on furlough. I submit that Delta is a well managed company now. There are many factors leading to hiring at Delta, not the increased feed from some 70 seat jet. Do you really believe that the 70 seaters alone are creating hiring at Delta? MGT. will not stop with the 70 seater. They want all flying outsourced. It stops now!!

 

[SFR]

You obviously have no idea of the make up of the negotiating team, do a little research and you'll realize how stupid you sound.

Really? Then why are CAL pilots having to picket for our scope? If the union lawyers and contract enforcers were any good then we would not have to.

 

[BID]

I never claimed to be against scope, I just think that picketing is a waste of effort.

We need to get a negotiating team that has the know how and skill to get an iron clad contract, including an iron clad scope.

The problem is that our union has pilots doing some negotiating...that is rediculous and it is an insult. I say let the pilots fly the planes and hire professionals to do the negotiating in our contracts...

So you are a CAL pilot ?

 

[EWR_FO]

Really? Then why are CAL pilots having to picket for our scope? If the union lawyers and contract enforcers were any good then we would not have to.

Does a black and white law keep people from stealing, speeding, killing, etc? Smisek feels like he can do whatever he likes UNTIL we use the law to stop him, he is no different than a common thief. As a matter of fact, he IS a thief. Smisek is going to look like a fool when he loses that arbitration and has to take those flights out of the computer.

 

[SuperFLUF]

Does a black and white law keep people from stealing, speeding, killing, etc? Smisek feels like he can do whatever he likes UNTIL we use the law to stop him, he is no different than a common thief. As a matter of fact, he IS a thief. Smisek is going to look like a fool when he loses that arbitration and has to take those flights out of the computer.

You mean when he loses that arbitration, chooses to continue anyway and then is told by a judge to take those flights out of the computer.

 

[EWR_FO]

You mean when he loses that arbitration, chooses to continue anyway and then is told by a judge to take those flights out of the computer.

Smisek is such a dick, that is probably exactly how it will go.

 

[Skyflyin]

Really? Then why are CAL pilots having to picket for our scope? If the union lawyers and contract enforcers were any good then we would not have to.

It's a whole package. The pilots provide leverage for the lawyers and contract enforcers. If we only had 20 people show up then they would not have much leverage. Since over 300 showed up for both events so far I would say that is considerable leverage. It shows that we care about it since we are willing to take one of our precious days off and come down to picket. Does that make sense to you?

 

[SpyFlysDOTs]

Yesterday 11:20AM on way into IAH:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3xRSARxKMV4

 

[SFR]

It's a whole package. The pilots provide leverage for the lawyers and contract enforcers. If we only had 20 people show up then they would not have much leverage. Since over 300 showed up for both events so far I would say that is considerable leverage. It shows that we care about it since we are willing to take one of our precious days off and come down to picket. Does that make sense to you?

We don't need leverage, a contract is a contract is a contract. Does that mean anyone who does not show up to support the picket does not support the contract too?

The lawyers don't need our leverage assistance, their leverage is the court system.

 

[UALRATT]

I only ask because isn't "imformational picketing" supposed to pass information? Not that I'm bashing those who turned out, I just think it was/is a complete waste of time. Of course CALALPA will tote it as a total success all the while they are ignoring the real fight and the real issues.

Actually, mamba could have made it 351 pilots in attendance but he decided to be a spectator who keeps missing the live show. Unfortunately there is no instant replay mambo. Represent or STFU!!

 

[thruthemurk]

We don't need leverage, a contract is a contract is a contract. Does that mean anyone who does not show up to support the picket does not support the contract too?

The lawyers don't need our leverage assistance, their leverage is the court system.

You are wrong. It is all about leverage. If the pilots are not behind the negotiators, they will spend ten years at the table getting nothing. There is enough empirical evidence to completely swamp anyone who has an interest to study the history of pilots contract negotiations.

Even if the pilots provide plenty of leverage, an ignorant or hubristic management team can still delay progress for a ridiculously long time. The NMB will eventually get involved - and sometime the courts. As you may be aware, it is not the blinded lady justice ruling impartially with regard to the law. Judges, and therefore the courts tend to lean one way or the other on labor (and other) issues.

The picketing primarily serves to let the management, and more importantly, the board know that this is not a negotiating team out on their own. If they believe it will cost them more money to stay on their current path, they may adjust course.

 

[SFR]

You are wrong. It is all about leverage. If the pilots are not behind the negotiators, they will spend ten years at the table getting nothing. There is enough empirical evidence to completely swamp anyone who has an interest to study the history of pilots contract negotiations.

Even if the pilots provide plenty of leverage, an ignorant or hubristic management team can still delay progress for a ridiculously long time. The NMB will eventually get involved - and sometime the courts. As you may be aware, it is not the blinded lady justice ruling impartially with regard to the law. Judges, and therefore the courts tend to lean one way or the other on labor (and other) issues.

The picketing primarily serves to let the management, and more importantly, the board know that this is not a negotiating team out on their own. If they believe it will cost them more money to stay on their current path, they may adjust course.

Good point and all true....


But, I got in this job to fly planes......or not fly planes sometimes...

Anyways, all of this extra curricular junk is annoying and the story has been the same since my first airlines job in 1999. Nothing has changed. I did not get into this job for other pilots. I do support the union 2% worth every month.


Pilots complained at Eagle, then ASA then CAL... all the same sad story, even SWA pilots complain..

My friend at Exxom makes $180k per year, $110k first year out of college.. home every night, sure, works 9-5 (-7 some days), but he can retire at 45 with a few million dollars. He is 30 years old now. BTW, he gets a $10k raise every year. Union....what is that? Do they still have those?

Airline pilots want to be in the same social circle people like this, attorneys, doctors...... that is just simply not the case (anymore), we are upscale bus drivers (in some cases literally) and management is going to fight all the way to prove that.



Choices:

1) Quit and change career...... and dont look back
2) Continue flying and fight for career.... spend nights away from home until you retire.




I guarantee that in 10 years this board will be the same dialogue and content as it is today, because it was the same 10 years ago.

Face it, the job kinda blows and is boring as heyll.......

 

[Ben Franklin]

Good point and all true....


But, I got in this job to fly planes......or not fly planes sometimes...

Anyways, all of this extra curricular junk is annoying and the story has been the same since my first airlines job in 1999. Nothing has changed. I did not get into this job for other pilots. I do support the union 2% worth every month.


Pilots complained at Eagle, then ASA then CAL... all the same sad story, even SWA pilots complain..

My friend at Exxom makes $180k per year, $110k first year out of college.. home every night, sure, works 9-5 (-7 some days), but he can retire at 45 with a few million dollars. He is 30 years old now. BTW, he gets a $10k raise every year. Union....what is that? Do they still have those?

Airline pilots want to be in the same social circle people like this, attorneys, doctors...... that is just simply not the case (anymore), we are upscale bus drivers (in some cases literally) and management is going to fight all the way to prove that.



Choices:

1) Quit and change career...... and dont look back
2) Continue flying and fight for career.... spend nights away from home until you retire.




I guarantee that in 10 years this board will be the same dialogue and content as it is today, because it was the same 10 years ago.

Face it, the job kinda blows and is boring as heyll.......

AIM HIGH



Your whole post sounds far too similar in content and tone to the crap that 83-85 hires/scabs spew while at work.

You have a diminished self worth when it comes to the context of your career... and that's just a sad fact of your life because you have never been shown any better by your mentors in life.

I wish you had the tact, intelligence and guts to just keep your thoughts on the UAL/CAL JCBA/SLI to yourself... or just maybe contribute 2% of your esteem-deficient thoughts every month and then stop.

 

[UALRATT]

Good point and all true....


But, I got in this job to fly planes......or not fly planes sometimes...

Anyways, all of this extra curricular junk is annoying and the story has been the same since my first airlines job in 1999. Nothing has changed. I did not get into this job for other pilots. I do support the union 2% worth every month.


Pilots complained at Eagle, then ASA then CAL... all the same sad story, even SWA pilots complain..

My friend at Exxom makes $180k per year, $110k first year out of college.. home every night, sure, works 9-5 (-7 some days), but he can retire at 45 with a few million dollars. He is 30 years old now. BTW, he gets a $10k raise every year. Union....what is that? Do they still have those?

Airline pilots want to be in the same social circle people like this, attorneys, doctors...... that is just simply not the case (anymore), we are upscale bus drivers (in some cases literally) and management is going to fight all the way to prove that.



Choices:

1) Quit and change career...... and dont look back
2) Continue flying and fight for career.... spend nights away from home until you retire.




I guarantee that in 10 years this board will be the same dialogue and content as it is today, because it was the same 10 years ago.

Face it, the job kinda blows and is boring as heyll.......

NOW GO JOIN YOUR FRIEND AT EXXOM (?). You will be more successful there being one of the anchor on the pride of the fleet, The Exxon Valdez, now renamed the Dong Fang Ocean.

 

[SFR]

The good thing is that Arkansas paid on time. Covington 1 lost his job but got a new one this week, but still paid 400 this month. Covington 2 is making catch up (not ketchup) and Rex paid 600 today, 195 plus late coming within 7 days. Stockbridge pays on the 26th with late.

Bling bling on the thing...


kopi080mEIO129#@AJF



And they forgot the fact that they forgot about Dre.

 

[SFR]

AIM HIGH



Your whole post sounds far too similar in content and tone to the crap that 83-85 hires/scabs spew while at work.

You have a diminished self worth when it comes to the context of your career... and that's just a sad fact of your life because you have never been shown any better by your mentors in life.

I wish you had the tact, intelligence and guts to just keep your thoughts on the UAL/CAL JCBA/SLI to yourself... or just maybe contribute 2% of your esteem-deficient thoughts every month and then stop.

Do I not speak the truth?

The worst part is that I don't even know what JCBA/SLI stands for...



Lets get over the whole 83-85 scab thing....Most of us were in kindergarten when that happened. I am over it and BTW, you won't see me as a scab ever, but I would bet different on a lot of the so called "pro union" pilots that are on our list now.


The only reason any express jet pilots were standing in line is because they are trying to network with CAL pilots for future recommendations....I know, I wanted to do the same thing when at ASA when DAL pilots had an event.

 

[SFR]

AIM HIGH


QUOTE]



Easy for you to say!! You discovered electricity...

 

[mamba20]

Actually, mamba could have made it 351 pilots in attendance but he decided to be a spectator who keeps missing the live show. Unfortunately there is no instant replay mambo. Represent or STFU!!

Suck it. Oh and Happy Thanksgiving.

 

[nimtz]

The good thing is that Arkansas paid on time. Covington 1 lost his job but got a new one this week, but still paid 400 this month. Covington 2 is making catch up (not ketchup) and Rex paid 600 today, 195 plus late coming within 7 days. Stockbridge pays on the 26th with late.

Bling bling on the thing...


kopi080mEIO129#@AJF



And they forgot the fact that they forgot about Dre.

Wow Sean Congrats! You sure are racking in the dough from the renting to the high net worth individuals that have to make Suburban Houston home because well BECAUSE IT'S AN AWESOME F*ING PLACE TO LIVE! I'm trying to scoop up properties in Humble, but for some reason the lousy big gov'ment says the squatters made them unlivable. Again thanks for telling these losers straight Sean Roth. You are an inspiration for all of us that thought being an airline pilot was a career!

 

[SFR]

Wow Sean Congrats! You sure are racking in the dough from the renting to the high net worth individuals that have to make Suburban Houston home because well BECAUSE IT'S AN AWESOME F*ING PLACE TO LIVE! I'm trying to scoop up properties in Humble, but for some reason the lousy big gov'ment says the squatters made them unlivable. Again thanks for telling these losers straight Sean Roth. You are an inspiration for all of us that thought being an airline pilot was a career!

Or we can sing the "Song of Hope"....sing along......



Suburban Houston is a nice place to live, but 4 of those are a different state, so close but no cigarillo.

If you are really thrying to get properties in Humble check out hudhomestore.com for some possible deals.


Make the best of the career and remember, don't work for the system, let the system work for YOU!!!!!!

 

[SuperFLUF]

....The worst part is that I don't even know what JCBA/SLI stands for....

That is the worst part. Do you not pay ANY attention to what's going on? Or do you enjoy the smell of your rectal-cranial inversion?

How can you even attempt to pontificate about something you admit you don't know anything about?

Apathetic, uneducated pushovers like yourself are the reason why CAL has had the substandard working conditions is has had since 1983.

 

[nimtz]

Or we can sing the "Song of Hope"....sing along......



Suburban Houston is a nice place to live, but 4 of those are a different state, so close but no cigarillo.

If you are really thrying to get properties in Humble check out hudhomestore.com for some possible deals.


Make the best of the career and remember, don't work for the system, let the system work for YOU!!!!!!

Gee Sean I heard at a seminar a few weeks ago that the best way to work the system is to work around the system. Maybe I've given you a great idea for once!

 

[SFR]

That is the worst part. Do you not pay ANY attention to what's going on? Or do you enjoy the smell of your rectal-cranial inversion?

How can you even attempt to pontificate about something you admit you don't know anything about?

Apathetic, uneducated pushovers like yourself are the reason why CAL has had the substandard working conditions is has had since 1983.

Pushover? I have done something about it, what have you done lately besides show up to work and fly your trips like you are told?

 

[SFR]

Gee Sean I heard at a seminar a few weeks ago that the best way to work the system is to work around the system. Maybe I've given you a great idea for once!

The Fannie Mae auction had some good deals also....