CAL pilots picketing.... or something like that..

[777forever]

Bill Swelbar socked it to you guys

At least in Delta’s case, the union recognized that the regional flying being performed today was critical to supporting mainline jobs. Regional carriers were contracted to perform domestic flying in markets where the poor underlying domestic economics remain. The Continental and United pilots should be looking at the very same thing. The unintended consequence of undoing the regional relationships today will be a smaller mainline tomorrow. Smaller network architecture does not produce the synergies promised by a combined United and Continental.

There is a financial concept lost on union leaders today: Net Present Value or NPV. It means simply that cash flows realized in the short term have more value to the firm (or individual) than cash flows generated years down the road. Captain Jay Pierce, the head of the Continental ALPA unit, argues rightly that the company’s action of swapping five 70 seat jets in Continental’s hubs for five 50 seat jets is strictly a way of carrying more passengers and thus making more money. It is what companies should be doing - maximizing the revenue earning power of the network.

The benefits to the new United’s actions in this limited case are obvious. The risks are, well, timid and weak as no jobs are being lost. Energy spent during one of the most traveled weeks of the year should be spent negotiating a joint collective bargaining agreement and not preparing for an arbitration that in reality is nothing more than a desperate grab of leverage that - if the pilots prevail - will result in fewer jobs, less mainline flying, fewer synergies to be shared among pilots and a degradation of the combined carrier’s status within the STAR Alliance.

Delta was allowed MORE 70+ regional flying by its pilots after the merger. Look at ALL the mainline pilot job loss they've had! Oh wait, they only hired 300 this year, and are predicted to hire another 300-600 next year! You guys might want to go talk to Lee Moak for advice!

 

[sleeves]

Bill Swelbar socked it to you guys



Delta was allowed MORE 70+ regional flying by its pilots after the merger. Look at ALL the mainline pilot job loss they've had! Oh wait, they only hired 300 this year, and are predicted to hire another 300-600 next year! You guys might want to go talk to Lee Moak for advice!

This artical is laughable. Why don't we let "regionals" fly 777's? The new United could make all kinds of money then (off the backs of employees). This artical is bought and paid for by MGT. Tell the 1500 furloughed UAL pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out to be for them.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The picture of the informational picketing in the link provided above shows the pilots picketing in a non-viewable area of the EWR airport.

Where did the pilots picket? Looks like they are in a back alley out of view of any passengers.

 

[ewrord]

They were also inside of the terminal along the C3 concourse.

 

[EWR_FO]

Bill Swelbar socked it to you guys



Delta was allowed MORE 70+ regional flying by its pilots after the merger. Look at ALL the mainline pilot job loss they've had! Oh wait, they only hired 300 this year, and are predicted to hire another 300-600 next year! You guys might want to go talk to Lee Moak for advice!

Thanks for the advice but I'll pass, the guys running this company don't give a s**t about long term planning-only short term gains. Not going to happen anymore.

 

[777forever]

This artical is laughable. Why don't we let "regionals" fly 777's? The new United could make all kinds of money then (off the backs of employees). This artical is bought and paid for by MGT. Tell the 1500 furloughed UAL pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out to be for them.

How is the article laughable? It would be a good idea for mainline pilots, especially union leaders to take a course in economics, or at least talk to Lee Moak.

Regionals do not fly 777s or any other kind of large mainline jet because they carry more people and allow for enough revenue to pay a mainline wage. The profit margins on 50 and 70 aircraft are already too thin to pay a mainline wage on it.

I guess CAL/UAL pilots can fly the 70 seaters if they really want to, but the airline will not be profitable unless mainline pilots take deep concessions to fly them. If CAL/UAL pilots are that desperate to fly to KLFT for $80 bucks and hr in the left seat and $40 bucks in the right, so be it I guess. But you can kiss SWA type wages and any hope your airline competing with Delta away.

You say ask 1400 pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out for them I say ask 300 pilots this year and 300-600 pilots next year at Delta how good 70-76 seat flying turned out for them. If CAL's ironclad 50 seat scope is so strong and powerful why has Delta hired and CAL hasn't? By your logic Delta should have furloughed 2,000+ because of the 900s and the E175s

Lee Moak realized that a strong regional network meant a stronger mainline. Now Delta is adding MD-90s like crazy and replacing regional aircraft with mainline. Capt Jay Pierce sounds absolutely ridiculous when he states that management replacing a 50 seat jet with a 70 seat jet(no loss of mainline jobs) is a way for the company to add more seats and make more money. Seriously Jay?!? Add to the fact that both MEC chairmen are publicly throwing jabs are each other makes the pilots look very very bad.

Here's and idea for your MEC. Freeze the number of regional aircraft. Let management decide whatever aircraft size between 50 and 76 seats for that set number of aircraft they want. As a trade-off, make management give the pilots some of the additional revenue the company earned off the larger regionals thru higher pay and better work rules. That should get the new CAL/UAL JCBA somewhere close or better than SWA/Fedex/UPS.

By doing this I guarantee all 1400 pilots on furlough will be back within 2 years and hiring will start

 

[777forever]

Thanks for the advice but I'll pass, the guys running this company don't give a s**t about long term planning-only short term gains. Not going to happen anymore.

Short term gains? The combination of UAL/CAL has the potential to be by far the world's most powerful airline. The synergies of this merger are way better than that of DAL/NWA. That's why they've been so quiet. They are secretly hoping you guys(pilots vs management, pilots vs pilots{747/777 issue} destroy each other.

I understand the pilots are bitter about the Air Lingus issue and the 1400 furloughs. But fighting management and burning the airline to the ground will not make anything better.

By replacing a 50 seater with a 70 seater(not adding a 70 seater, but REPLACING a 50 seater) the company makes more money, and adds more feed onto MAINLINE aircraft, which eventually could(or in Delta's case, will) result in adding more mainline aircraft due to increased feed, or replace over performing 70-76 seat flying with mainline. Just look at the ATL-MDW route for Delta as an example. That route used to be exclusively an E175 and CRJ900 route. The regional aircraft re-energized that market to the point that growth exceeded the airplane size and an Airbus A319 had to be put on the route.

Examples like this is the reason Delta has hired and will continue to hire for the foreseeable future. This same success can be replicated at the new United. But if the pilots choose to continue to fight with management AND fight with each other they are doing nothing except hurting their image, their job stability, and their own pocketbook.

 

[bizicmo]

Yes by allowing additional outsourcing it will increase job stability. that sounds about right.

 

[denny]

If UAL has 1400 pilots on furlough just because of regional flying inroads then UAL was a lot, lot closer to the edge of oblivion and probably should have disappeared if the economic model of that company is what UAL pilots say it is. Why would anyone stay at a company like that?

 

[bluefin]

How is the article laughable? It would be a good idea for mainline pilots, especially union leaders to take a course in economics, or at least talk to Lee Moak.

Regionals do not fly 777s or any other kind of large mainline jet because they carry more people and allow for enough revenue to pay a mainline wage. The profit margins on 50 and 70 aircraft are already too thin to pay a mainline wage on it.

I guess CAL/UAL pilots can fly the 70 seaters if they really want to, but the airline will not be profitable unless mainline pilots take deep concessions to fly them. If CAL/UAL pilots are that desperate to fly to KLFT for $80 bucks and hr in the left seat and $40 bucks in the right, so be it I guess. But you can kiss SWA type wages and any hope your airline competing with Delta away.

You say ask 1400 pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out for them I say ask 300 pilots this year and 300-600 pilots next year at Delta how good 70-76 seat flying turned out for them. If CAL's ironclad 50 seat scope is so strong and powerful why has Delta hired and CAL hasn't? By your logic Delta should have furloughed 2,000+ because of the 900s and the E175s

Lee Moak realized that a strong regional network meant a stronger mainline. Now Delta is adding MD-90s like crazy and replacing regional aircraft with mainline. Capt Jay Pierce sounds absolutely ridiculous when he states that management replacing a 50 seat jet with a 70 seat jet(no loss of mainline jobs) is a way for the company to add more seats and make more money. Seriously Jay?!? Add to the fact that both MEC chairmen are publicly throwing jabs are each other makes the pilots look very very bad.

Here's and idea for your MEC. Freeze the number of regional aircraft. Let management decide whatever aircraft size between 50 and 76 seats for that set number of aircraft they want. As a trade-off, make management give the pilots some of the additional revenue the company earned off the larger regionals thru higher pay and better work rules. That should get the new CAL/UAL JCBA somewhere close or better than SWA/Fedex/UPS.

By doing this I guarantee all 1400 pilots on furlough will be back within 2 years and hiring will start

UAL doesn't play the same way!!! UAL will FURLOUGH MORE immediately if this is allowed to pass!! It took a TA to keep them from furloughing!! They were still dumping bus routes to RJ's and wanting to furlough another 200 - 300 right up until the merger and even after!! When this TA expires if there is not a JCBA, there will be another 300 - 500 furloughs, cause the flying will be outsourced!!! Been around long enough to see it coming!!!

 

[EWR_FO]

Short term gains? The combination of UAL/CAL has the potential to be by far the world's most powerful airline. The synergies of this merger are way better than that of DAL/NWA. That's why they've been so quiet. They are secretly hoping you guys(pilots vs management, pilots vs pilots{747/777 issue} destroy each other.

I understand the pilots are bitter about the Air Lingus issue and the 1400 furloughs. But fighting management and burning the airline to the ground will not make anything better.

By replacing a 50 seater with a 70 seater(not adding a 70 seater, but REPLACING a 50 seater) the company makes more money, and adds more feed onto MAINLINE aircraft, which eventually could(or in Delta's case, will) result in adding more mainline aircraft due to increased feed, or replace over performing 70-76 seat flying with mainline. Just look at the ATL-MDW route for Delta as an example. That route used to be exclusively an E175 and CRJ900 route. The regional aircraft re-energized that market to the point that growth exceeded the airplane size and an Airbus A319 had to be put on the route.

Examples like this is the reason Delta has hired and will continue to hire for the foreseeable future. This same success can be replicated at the new United. But if the pilots choose to continue to fight with management AND fight with each other they are doing nothing except hurting their image, their job stability, and their own pocketbook.

If you think that is why Delta is hiring, trying to rationalize anything to you is hopeless. The MBA a-holes who run these companies only look at one thing -cost. They could give a s**t about long term investment, THAT is why they want 70 seaters. This is nothing more than a test of wills because if they folded without a fight, they would have to explain why they folded to the BOD's. The economics of 50 seat jets are dead, with the 70 seaters not far behind- $85 per barrel oil has put a fork in them. They know it, we know it, and Wall Street knows it.

 

[SFR]

How is the article laughable? It would be a good idea for mainline pilots, especially union leaders to take a course in economics, or at least talk to Lee Moak.

Regionals do not fly 777s or any other kind of large mainline jet because they carry more people and allow for enough revenue to pay a mainline wage. The profit margins on 50 and 70 aircraft are already too thin to pay a mainline wage on it.

I guess CAL/UAL pilots can fly the 70 seaters if they really want to, but the airline will not be profitable unless mainline pilots take deep concessions to fly them. If CAL/UAL pilots are that desperate to fly to KLFT for $80 bucks and hr in the left seat and $40 bucks in the right, so be it I guess. But you can kiss SWA type wages and any hope your airline competing with Delta away.

You say ask 1400 pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out for them I say ask 300 pilots this year and 300-600 pilots next year at Delta how good 70-76 seat flying turned out for them. If CAL's ironclad 50 seat scope is so strong and powerful why has Delta hired and CAL hasn't? By your logic Delta should have furloughed 2,000+ because of the 900s and the E175s

Lee Moak realized that a strong regional network meant a stronger mainline. Now Delta is adding MD-90s like crazy and replacing regional aircraft with mainline. Capt Jay Pierce sounds absolutely ridiculous when he states that management replacing a 50 seat jet with a 70 seat jet(no loss of mainline jobs) is a way for the company to add more seats and make more money. Seriously Jay?!? Add to the fact that both MEC chairmen are publicly throwing jabs are each other makes the pilots look very very bad.

Here's and idea for your MEC. Freeze the number of regional aircraft. Let management decide whatever aircraft size between 50 and 76 seats for that set number of aircraft they want. As a trade-off, make management give the pilots some of the additional revenue the company earned off the larger regionals thru higher pay and better work rules. That should get the new CAL/UAL JCBA somewhere close or better than SWA/Fedex/UPS.

By doing this I guarantee all 1400 pilots on furlough will be back within 2 years and hiring will start

This issue is that the 70 seat jobs need to be with mainline, period. Sure they will pay less than the 737, as long as the ratio makes sense with seat/pay.

Adding jobs at any regional does not benefit the mainline group at all.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

777forever,

What you say above theoretically has some merit, but there are two big factors you fail to account for that makes your entire argument moot.

1. THE CAL PILOT CONTRACT PROHIBITS THE FLYING OF 70 SEAT JETS OUT OF OUR HUBS! If Mgt wants to fly 70 seaters out of out hubs, they can:
a: buy all the 70 seaters they want to be flown by us;
b: negotiate scope in the JCBA to allow said 70 seat flying. Not likely
IMHO, but almost everyone has their price to be bought off.
c: blatantly violate our current contract and dare us to stop them.
Options a and b could have provided for 70 seaters out of our hubs, but not surprisingly mgt chose option c, to go to war with us. If we won't even enforce what little good we have in our current POS contract, how can we expect them to take our future saber rattling seriously when the JCBA negotiations approach endgame?

2. CAL mgt runs the new UAL, not DAL mgt! DAL is run by the former CAL guys, you know, from worst to first and all that? Operationally minded guys that want to run an airline and expand, not run an accounting firm? The new UAL (current CAL) mgt is beancounters and lawyers, who have never found an aircraft too small to fly on any given route. Whose idea of appropriate service for such podunk villages as ATL from the largest metropolitan area in the country (EWR) is 2 737-500s and 6 RJs a day, compared to the ELEVEN MAINLINE flights flown by DAL! Allowing more 70 seaters into our system will NOT lead to more feed providing for more mainline aircraft, it will lead to less feed as mainline aircraft are parked and replaced, just like with the 50 seat RJ explosion 10 years ago. We may soon be the largest airline in the world, but I dont see our mgt's small airline mentality going away.

 

[Dewey Oxberger]

This issue is that the 70 seat jobs need to be with mainline, period. Sure they will pay less than the 737, as long as the ratio makes sense with seat/pay.

Adding jobs at any regional does not benefit the mainline group at all.

OMG, a logical, agreeable, non-inflammatory post! Did someone log on to your username while you're in the john droppin' a D?

 

[SFR]

OMG, a logical, agreeable, non-inflammatory post! Did someone log on to your username while you're in the john droppin' a D?

I never claimed to be against scope, I just think that picketing is a waste of effort.

We need to get a negotiating team that has the know how and skill to get an iron clad contract, including an iron clad scope.

The problem is that our union has pilots doing some negotiating...that is rediculous and it is an insult. I say let the pilots fly the planes and hire professionals to do the negotiating in our contracts...

 

[EWR_FO]

The problem is that our union has pilots doing some negotiating...that is rediculous and it is an insult. I say let the pilots fly the planes and hire professionals to do the negotiating in our contracts...

You obviously have no idea of the make up of the negotiating team, do a little research and you'll realize how stupid you sound.

 

[sleeves]

How is the article laughable? It would be a good idea for mainline pilots, especially union leaders to take a course in economics, or at least talk to Lee Moak.

Regionals do not fly 777s or any other kind of large mainline jet because they carry more people and allow for enough revenue to pay a mainline wage. The profit margins on 50 and 70 aircraft are already too thin to pay a mainline wage on it.

I guess CAL/UAL pilots can fly the 70 seaters if they really want to, but the airline will not be profitable unless mainline pilots take deep concessions to fly them. If CAL/UAL pilots are that desperate to fly to KLFT for $80 bucks and hr in the left seat and $40 bucks in the right, so be it I guess. But you can kiss SWA type wages and any hope your airline competing with Delta away.

You say ask 1400 pilots how good 70 seat flying turned out for them I say ask 300 pilots this year and 300-600 pilots next year at Delta how good 70-76 seat flying turned out for them. If CAL's ironclad 50 seat scope is so strong and powerful why has Delta hired and CAL hasn't? By your logic Delta should have furloughed 2,000+ because of the 900s and the E175s

Lee Moak realized that a strong regional network meant a stronger mainline. Now Delta is adding MD-90s like crazy and replacing regional aircraft with mainline. Capt Jay Pierce sounds absolutely ridiculous when he states that management replacing a 50 seat jet with a 70 seat jet(no loss of mainline jobs) is a way for the company to add more seats and make more money. Seriously Jay?!? Add to the fact that both MEC chairmen are publicly throwing jabs are each other makes the pilots look very very bad.

Here's and idea for your MEC. Freeze the number of regional aircraft. Let management decide whatever aircraft size between 50 and 76 seats for that set number of aircraft they want. As a trade-off, make management give the pilots some of the additional revenue the company earned off the larger regionals thru higher pay and better work rules. That should get the new CAL/UAL JCBA somewhere close or better than SWA/Fedex/UPS.

By doing this I guarantee all 1400 pilots on furlough will be back within 2 years and hiring will start

Yep, without negotiating in pubic, the rate for the "Regional" flying needs to be competitive with what it is being done at now when it is brought back to mainline. Much better then paying your competition to do your flying. I am not looking for a short term payday in exchange for scope relief. No amount of money would entice me to sign away scope.

I was at an express carrier when we went to jets to increase the feed to mainline. We were there to "Build up the route" so that mainline could take it over. We were going to "Increase feed to the hubs by getting paxs to the hub from places we did not currently fly to." Ya know what really happen? We took over a crap load of routes that used to be mainline. They shrunk, we grew. I have heard it all before.
Following your logic, we at CAL are hiring back our furloughed pilots and do not allow the 70 seaters. United has had 70 seaters for some time and it has 1400 on furlough. I submit that Delta is a well managed company now. There are many factors leading to hiring at Delta, not the increased feed from some 70 seat jet. Do you really believe that the 70 seaters alone are creating hiring at Delta? MGT. will not stop with the 70 seater. They want all flying outsourced. It stops now!!

 

[SFR]

You obviously have no idea of the make up of the negotiating team, do a little research and you'll realize how stupid you sound.

Really? Then why are CAL pilots having to picket for our scope? If the union lawyers and contract enforcers were any good then we would not have to.

 

[BID]

I never claimed to be against scope, I just think that picketing is a waste of effort.

We need to get a negotiating team that has the know how and skill to get an iron clad contract, including an iron clad scope.

The problem is that our union has pilots doing some negotiating...that is rediculous and it is an insult. I say let the pilots fly the planes and hire professionals to do the negotiating in our contracts...

So you are a CAL pilot ?

 

[EWR_FO]

Really? Then why are CAL pilots having to picket for our scope? If the union lawyers and contract enforcers were any good then we would not have to.

Does a black and white law keep people from stealing, speeding, killing, etc? Smisek feels like he can do whatever he likes UNTIL we use the law to stop him, he is no different than a common thief. As a matter of fact, he IS a thief. Smisek is going to look like a fool when he loses that arbitration and has to take those flights out of the computer.