CAL MEC considering leaving JCBA

[densoo]

IMO union politics is just the symptom. The pilots themselves are the problem. Leadership can only exercise the leverage the pilots give it. If we collectively wanted an agreement it would come pretty quickly.

PS is the latest example. The pilots asked for $5k on Feb 14 rather than a chance to bring about a billion dollar joint contract. So on Feb 15, we go right back to the abuse.

I don't entirely disagree with the lack of expertise, but with the appropriate leverage, we could use a chisel and stone and the company would be amenable.

 

[whatitdoing?]

IMO union politics is just the symptom. The pilots themselves are the problem. Leadership can only exercise the leverage the pilots give it. If we collectively wanted an agreement it would come pretty quickly.

PS is the latest example. The pilots asked for $5k on Feb 14 rather than a chance to bring about a billion dollar joint contract. So on Feb 15, we go right back to the abuse.

I don't entirely disagree with the lack of expertise, but with the appropriate leverage, we could use a chisel and stone and the company would be amenable.

No completely true. JP justified the profit sharing because of doubts about our 767 grievance. JP is going to defend the interests of the CAL pilots. The 767 issue would of gone away as soon as the 787 came along. Also, there was no guarantee an arbitrator would put any merit to it as soon as the 787 came along, let alone monetary damages equal to what we got with profit sharing. So, your statement that on Feb 15th we'd be at square one would of come along with or without profit sharing. We didn't sell on 5k, we got what we deserved and earned. UALALPA just wanted us to pass on profit sharing as a sign of 'working together' and unity with them. It was very one sided and contrary to what JP's obligation is to his pilot group. UALALPA has a history, of which you admit, of making poor decisions for their pilot group. This is just another chapter in their book of failures. UALALPA hasn't included CALALPA or CAL pilots in any decision they've made. They've left us out, not included us, then blamed us for their failures. UALALPA has to own up their mistakes, change their strategy and get on board with getting a JCBA. The United pilots are going to lose big time and they don't even know it. Sad.

 

[jonjuan]

No completely true. JP justified the profit sharing because of doubts about our 767 grievance. JP is going to defend the interests of the CAL pilots. The 767 issue would of gone away as soon as the 787 came along. Also, there was no guarantee an arbitrator would put any merit to it as soon as the 787 came along, let alone monetary damages equal to what we got with profit sharing. So, your statement that on Feb 15th we'd be at square one would of come along with or without profit sharing. We didn't sell on 5k, we got what we deserved and earned. UALALPA just wanted us to pass on profit sharing as a sign of 'working together' and unity with them. It was very one sided and contrary to what JP's obligation is to his pilot group. UALALPA has a history, of which you admit, of making poor decisions for their pilot group. This is just another chapter in their book of failures. UALALPA hasn't included CALALPA or CAL pilots in any decision they've made. They've left us out, not included us, then blamed us for their failures. UALALPA has to own up their mistakes, change their strategy and get on board with getting a JCBA. The United pilots are going to lose big time and they don't even know it. Sad.

Would of? "I failed English. That's impossible.". Lol....

 

[eaglesview]

As a furloughed UAL pilot, I'd definitely pin that generalism on LUAL pilots, not LCAL pilots.
Kravit's rant was an embarrassment to all LUAL pilots. When I first read Kravit's complaints against Pierce, my thought was that UALALPA did a LOUSY job of preparation for the meeting. They went in asking for a bunch of things. When UALALPA got a portion of their list of demands at no cost, Kravit chose to put zero value on what was given to them. I think that most of the pilots on property at the bottom of the list do not put zero value on no furlough and flying ratio protections.
Allow me to put value on those two freebies. $40 million. How do I figure? 400 pilots furloughed with a salary of $100K/yr. There ya go. And OF COURSE someone like Kravit puts no value on those company gives. He's at the top of the seniority list and doesn't gain jacksquat from the last 400 LUAL pilots keeping their jobs.

To all LCAL pilots, my apologies. Kravit is a loose cannon. Unfortunately, there are some brain dead zombies at LUAL who feasted on Kravit's rant like it was a piece of raw meat.

Andy this is a rediculously misinformed post. Get the facts. Go on the United pilots forum read what happened. In fact you CO pilots need to go on the forum and read as well.

 

[mishap]

Andy this is a rediculously misinformed post. Get the facts. Go on the United pilots forum read what happened. In fact you CO pilots need to go on the forum and read as well.

Been on it, it's getting a bit out of control, and like everything there are 3 sides to a story, CAL side, UAL side, and the truth. It probably lies somewhere in between. The real question is are we going to be dragged into a battle between each other that no one wins, or are we going to come together as PILOTS and try and force our leaders to move past this and focus on the real issue, a JCBA.

 

[eaglesview]

Read Kravits report on there. For what it's worth it was validated at the council 12 meeting today. Jay P is compromised plain and simple. With his employment history how can he possibly not be in managements pocket. That makes him very difficult to work with, ie can you trust him. Very difficult situation. The CO MEC ,to their credit,was not unaminously in favor of his actions re profit sharing.

 

[RT8VA]

Did the CAL MEC leave all of these protections out of the UAL contract too Eagle, I didn't realize we negotiated and ratified that one. Seems to me a little misplaced anger because when the 767 grievance fell by the wayside or netted a wopping 30,000 dollar fine for the company like the 70 seat one did I am sure the UAL pilots wouldn't have cut us a check for half their profit sharing just to show what good unionists they are. Give me a break already.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Or better yet, they wanted to either leave us out of profit sharing, or get a higher percentage 'bonus' along with equal pay rates with us getting NOTHING. Ya, working together. We told them that managment would never go for it. They didn't listen, went all in with 2's and got called. Now there's fallout, and UALALPA is left pointing fingers. Amazing how its our fault now.

 

[eaglesview]

Did the CAL MEC leave all of these protections out of the UAL contract too Eagle, I didn't realize we negotiated and ratified that one. Seems to me a little misplaced anger because when the 767 grievance fell by the wayside or netted a wopping 30,000 dollar fine for the company like the 70 seat one did I am sure the UAL pilots wouldn't have cut us a check for half their profit sharing just to show what good unionists they are. Give me a break already.

Are you defending your MEC chairman and his actions?? if so tell me why. You understand that your profit sharing, which you deserve, is loose change for this company. In return they get a wedge they have stuck between the pilot groups. Is this good in the long run for any of us. I won't "give it a break." I believe Jay P has damaged our collective progress toward our contract. That makes me angry.

As for "did the CO MEC leave out the protection in the T&PE" (not contract) of course not. Our former MEC chairwoman was too optimistic that a contract would have been reached brfore the sunset. Does that give the CO side the right to say "oh too bad for them lets grab ours." I'll let you answer that one.

By the way I am still waiting for a CO pilot to explain to me how Jay P leaves the company and then comes back, gets his original seniority back without being in someones pocket. Abbott?? It's a serious question I am curious.

 

[eaglesview]

Or better yet, they wanted to either leave us out of profit sharing, or get a higher percentage 'bonus' along with equal pay rates with us getting NOTHING. Ya, working together. We told them that managment would never go for it. They didn't listen, went all in with 2's and got called. Now there's fallout, and UALALPA is left pointing fingers. Amazing how its our fault now.

Again get the facts on what the company offered and what we were asking for.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Would of? "I failed English. That's impossible.". Lol....

Ok, give you that. There's always one person more interested in grammer.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Again get the facts on what the company offered and what we were asking for.

State the facts Eagle, I'm very interested. What did the company offer you guys?

 

[whatitdoing?]

Are you defending your MEC chairman and his actions?? if so tell me why. You understand that your profit sharing, which you deserve, is loose change for this company. In return they get a wedge they have stuck between the pilot groups. Is this good in the long run for any of us. I won't "give it a break." I believe Jay P has damaged our collective progress toward our contract. That makes me angry.

As for "did the CO MEC leave out the protection in the T&PE" (not contract) of course not. Our former MEC chairwoman was too optimistic that a contract would have been reached brfore the sunset. Does that give the CO side the right to say "oh too bad for them lets grab ours." I'll let you answer that one.

By the way I am still waiting for a CO pilot to explain to me how Jay P leaves the company and then comes back, gets his original seniority back without being in someones pocket. Abbott?? It's a serious question I am curious.

I'd be more concerned with your MEC's actions than JP. They're the reason why this JCBA is falling apart. They're pissed that the company called their bluff, now they're left having to explain it to their membership. At least we got profit sharing from it. Ya, we cashed in the 767 issue that had nothing to do with your efforts to get equal pay, added bonus, and extension of the furlough protection. Now you didn't get anything and blame us. Keep finding reasons to hate us. See you on the other side.

 

[densoo]

The 767 issue would of gone away as soon as the 787 came along.....We didn't sell on 5k, we got what we deserved and earned.

I don't know....

If the 767 was going to just "go away" then why did the company trade $45M for it?

If we "deserved and earned" it then why did we give away a grievance to get it?

If the company wanted us to have profit sharing so badly because they didn't want anything to spoil the media happy day or because they were concerned that the pilots who release the parking brakes wouldn't, then why didn't we ask them for something in return for us letting them give us profit sharing?

 

[whatitdoing?]

I don't know....

If the 767 was going to just "go away" then why did the company trade $45M for it?

If we "deserved and earned" it then why did we give away a grievance to get it?

If the company wanted us to have profit sharing so badly because they didn't want anything to spoil the media happy day or because they were concerned that the pilots who release the parking brakes wouldn't, then why didn't we ask them for something in return for us letting them give us profit sharing?

Nothing is deserved or earned with this management. You have to force the issue. Look, JP didn't do the right thing and didn't do the wrong thing. The only issue I have is how he got it. It was kinda of a backdoor kind of deal in a dark alley. I don't like that. But, the United pilots and UALALPA are wrong for blaming us for their failed attempt to get double profit sharing, extenion of their TPA clauses or protections, and then threw in pay equal to the CAL pilots while we got NOTHING. Sign of unity my arse. They just made a HUGE gamble and lost. Now they're looking to blame things on someone and have chosen JP. Whatever
As far as fear.....I have no doubts that managment feared what would happen if they didn't give PS. Problem is, we should of played that We shouldn't of gotten PS, we should of been given it. That's where I have a problem.
So now we're stuck with this pr nightmare.......

 

[eaglesview]

Nothing is deserved or earned with this management. You have to force the issue. Look, JP didn't do the right thing and didn't do the wrong thing. The only issue I have is how he got it. It was kinda of a backdoor kind of deal in a dark alley. I don't like that. But, the United pilots and UALALPA are wrong for blaming us for their failed attempt to get double profit sharing, extenion of their TPA clauses or protections, and then threw in pay equal to the CAL pilots while we got NOTHING. Sign of unity my arse. They just made a HUGE gamble and lost. Now they're looking to blame things on someone and have chosen JP. Whatever
As far as fear.....I have no doubts that managment feared what would happen if they didn't give PS. Problem is, we should of played that We shouldn't of gotten PS, we should of been given it. That's where I have a problem.
So now we're stuck with this pr nightmare.......

First off if UCH is going to offer $40 million to one side is it wrong to ask for the equivilant on the other. We are in this together are we not??

UALALPA wanted money equivilant to CAL. Compant said no?? UALALPA wanted to stop UCH from putting CAL in our hubs and UAL in CAL hubs. This was intended to continue to put preasure on the company on behalf of BOTH sides to negotiate. The company said no.. They countered with Forlough protection and something else small which I can not recall right now. Both of these were deemed by our MEC as worthless. The forlough protection in particular as A. The company is cancelling LOA's and forcing people back for the summer flying and B, everyone knows 65 kicks in in December. On top of that the CO MEC has our back right???? NO. This is where JP was underhanded. While our MC was out of the country he negotiated with the company for the PF for the CO side and left us. That is what happened plane and simple. If you think I don't trust him you are right. Tell me what he has done to make you think he is trustworthy.

Nobody wants to answer the question of how he comes back to CO with seniority without being in managements pocket. Could you leave and come back with seniority. I know I sure as hell could not.

UALALPA was not trying to get "double profit sharing" We attempted to get something of equal value. Please tell me what in a union setting is wrong with that? By the way it's not a PR nightmare it's a JCBA nightmare.

 

[eaglesview]

In addition, Corrct me if I am wrong. The CO side had profit sharing. The pilot group voted it away for a higher salary. I don't blame you, I would have too. Take the gauranteed money. So CO pilots were not being "Left out" they took there PS up front. Good decision I would have also.

 

[Mil Leave]

What was the deal?

Deleted - hit the button twice. Sorry.

 

[Mil Leave]

What was the deal?

First of all, many UAL guys have gotten way too emotional. If a CAL guy asks a simple question like "on the London layover is there a place where I can buy a roll of toilet paper?" there are 10 responses on how he can stick the paper up his behind and 5 more on how j pierce actually stole that paper from the UAL guys. The pettiness has to stop so we can ask the hard questions. And actually listen to the answers.
With that said, why did pierce make the deal? The company came to him to give PS. Does that sound like the company we all know and love (hate)? Something else was either implicitly promised or explicitly agreed to. I laugh every time somebody says that this was something the CAL MEC "negotiated". Is that what they call it when the company wants to give you something?
I think the UAL MEC never wanted a deal and thus made a decision to ask for something the company wouldn't give. Maybe they thought CAL agreed with that philosophy. As sad as it is, the TPA should have expired completely on Dec 31. No more deals with the company until they hand us the whole enchilada. They could do it in two weeks flat if they wanted to. We give them no reason to want to. Frats. -ML

 

[IAHERJ]

In addition, Corrct me if I am wrong. The CO side had profit sharing. The pilot group voted it away for a higher salary. I don't blame you, I would have too. Take the gauranteed money. So CO pilots were not being "Left out" they took there PS up front. Good decision I would have also.

I don't know where you heard that. This is the second time I have read this from you. It is not true. We have not received a pay raise since 1998. The profit sharing was never voted away. It expired when our contract expired. Because we had announced the merger and had agreed to JCBA talks, the TPA extended the profit sharing for a year. It was assumed that the JCBA would be done in less than 6 months however we are where we are and the profit sharing was only extended for a year. We never voted it away and certainly have not received higher pay.