CAL MEC considering leaving JCBA

[whatitdoing?]

Would of? "I failed English. That's impossible.". Lol....

Ok, give you that. There's always one person more interested in grammer.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Again get the facts on what the company offered and what we were asking for.

State the facts Eagle, I'm very interested. What did the company offer you guys?

 

[whatitdoing?]

Are you defending your MEC chairman and his actions?? if so tell me why. You understand that your profit sharing, which you deserve, is loose change for this company. In return they get a wedge they have stuck between the pilot groups. Is this good in the long run for any of us. I won't "give it a break." I believe Jay P has damaged our collective progress toward our contract. That makes me angry.

As for "did the CO MEC leave out the protection in the T&PE" (not contract) of course not. Our former MEC chairwoman was too optimistic that a contract would have been reached brfore the sunset. Does that give the CO side the right to say "oh too bad for them lets grab ours." I'll let you answer that one.

By the way I am still waiting for a CO pilot to explain to me how Jay P leaves the company and then comes back, gets his original seniority back without being in someones pocket. Abbott?? It's a serious question I am curious.

I'd be more concerned with your MEC's actions than JP. They're the reason why this JCBA is falling apart. They're pissed that the company called their bluff, now they're left having to explain it to their membership. At least we got profit sharing from it. Ya, we cashed in the 767 issue that had nothing to do with your efforts to get equal pay, added bonus, and extension of the furlough protection. Now you didn't get anything and blame us. Keep finding reasons to hate us. See you on the other side.

 

[densoo]

The 767 issue would of gone away as soon as the 787 came along.....We didn't sell on 5k, we got what we deserved and earned.

I don't know....

If the 767 was going to just "go away" then why did the company trade $45M for it?

If we "deserved and earned" it then why did we give away a grievance to get it?

If the company wanted us to have profit sharing so badly because they didn't want anything to spoil the media happy day or because they were concerned that the pilots who release the parking brakes wouldn't, then why didn't we ask them for something in return for us letting them give us profit sharing?

 

[whatitdoing?]

I don't know....

If the 767 was going to just "go away" then why did the company trade $45M for it?

If we "deserved and earned" it then why did we give away a grievance to get it?

If the company wanted us to have profit sharing so badly because they didn't want anything to spoil the media happy day or because they were concerned that the pilots who release the parking brakes wouldn't, then why didn't we ask them for something in return for us letting them give us profit sharing?

Nothing is deserved or earned with this management. You have to force the issue. Look, JP didn't do the right thing and didn't do the wrong thing. The only issue I have is how he got it. It was kinda of a backdoor kind of deal in a dark alley. I don't like that. But, the United pilots and UALALPA are wrong for blaming us for their failed attempt to get double profit sharing, extenion of their TPA clauses or protections, and then threw in pay equal to the CAL pilots while we got NOTHING. Sign of unity my arse. They just made a HUGE gamble and lost. Now they're looking to blame things on someone and have chosen JP. Whatever
As far as fear.....I have no doubts that managment feared what would happen if they didn't give PS. Problem is, we should of played that We shouldn't of gotten PS, we should of been given it. That's where I have a problem.
So now we're stuck with this pr nightmare.......

 

[eaglesview]

Nothing is deserved or earned with this management. You have to force the issue. Look, JP didn't do the right thing and didn't do the wrong thing. The only issue I have is how he got it. It was kinda of a backdoor kind of deal in a dark alley. I don't like that. But, the United pilots and UALALPA are wrong for blaming us for their failed attempt to get double profit sharing, extenion of their TPA clauses or protections, and then threw in pay equal to the CAL pilots while we got NOTHING. Sign of unity my arse. They just made a HUGE gamble and lost. Now they're looking to blame things on someone and have chosen JP. Whatever
As far as fear.....I have no doubts that managment feared what would happen if they didn't give PS. Problem is, we should of played that We shouldn't of gotten PS, we should of been given it. That's where I have a problem.
So now we're stuck with this pr nightmare.......

First off if UCH is going to offer $40 million to one side is it wrong to ask for the equivilant on the other. We are in this together are we not??

UALALPA wanted money equivilant to CAL. Compant said no?? UALALPA wanted to stop UCH from putting CAL in our hubs and UAL in CAL hubs. This was intended to continue to put preasure on the company on behalf of BOTH sides to negotiate. The company said no.. They countered with Forlough protection and something else small which I can not recall right now. Both of these were deemed by our MEC as worthless. The forlough protection in particular as A. The company is cancelling LOA's and forcing people back for the summer flying and B, everyone knows 65 kicks in in December. On top of that the CO MEC has our back right???? NO. This is where JP was underhanded. While our MC was out of the country he negotiated with the company for the PF for the CO side and left us. That is what happened plane and simple. If you think I don't trust him you are right. Tell me what he has done to make you think he is trustworthy.

Nobody wants to answer the question of how he comes back to CO with seniority without being in managements pocket. Could you leave and come back with seniority. I know I sure as hell could not.

UALALPA was not trying to get "double profit sharing" We attempted to get something of equal value. Please tell me what in a union setting is wrong with that? By the way it's not a PR nightmare it's a JCBA nightmare.

 

[eaglesview]

In addition, Corrct me if I am wrong. The CO side had profit sharing. The pilot group voted it away for a higher salary. I don't blame you, I would have too. Take the gauranteed money. So CO pilots were not being "Left out" they took there PS up front. Good decision I would have also.

 

[Mil Leave]

What was the deal?

Deleted - hit the button twice. Sorry.

 

[Mil Leave]

What was the deal?

First of all, many UAL guys have gotten way too emotional. If a CAL guy asks a simple question like "on the London layover is there a place where I can buy a roll of toilet paper?" there are 10 responses on how he can stick the paper up his behind and 5 more on how j pierce actually stole that paper from the UAL guys. The pettiness has to stop so we can ask the hard questions. And actually listen to the answers.
With that said, why did pierce make the deal? The company came to him to give PS. Does that sound like the company we all know and love (hate)? Something else was either implicitly promised or explicitly agreed to. I laugh every time somebody says that this was something the CAL MEC "negotiated". Is that what they call it when the company wants to give you something?
I think the UAL MEC never wanted a deal and thus made a decision to ask for something the company wouldn't give. Maybe they thought CAL agreed with that philosophy. As sad as it is, the TPA should have expired completely on Dec 31. No more deals with the company until they hand us the whole enchilada. They could do it in two weeks flat if they wanted to. We give them no reason to want to. Frats. -ML

 

[IAHERJ]

In addition, Corrct me if I am wrong. The CO side had profit sharing. The pilot group voted it away for a higher salary. I don't blame you, I would have too. Take the gauranteed money. So CO pilots were not being "Left out" they took there PS up front. Good decision I would have also.

I don't know where you heard that. This is the second time I have read this from you. It is not true. We have not received a pay raise since 1998. The profit sharing was never voted away. It expired when our contract expired. Because we had announced the merger and had agreed to JCBA talks, the TPA extended the profit sharing for a year. It was assumed that the JCBA would be done in less than 6 months however we are where we are and the profit sharing was only extended for a year. We never voted it away and certainly have not received higher pay.

 

[eaglesview]

I don't know where you heard that. This is the second time I have read this from you. It is not true. We have not received a pay raise since 1998. The profit sharing was never voted away. It expired when our contract expired. Because we had announced the merger and had agreed to JCBA talks, the TPA extended the profit sharing for a year. It was assumed that the JCBA would be done in less than 6 months however we are where we are and the profit sharing was only extended for a year. We never voted it away and certainly have not received higher pay.

Ok I'll take your word for it.

 

[eaglesview]

First of all, many UAL guys have gotten way too emotional. If a CAL guy asks a simple question like "on the London layover is there a place where I can buy a roll of toilet paper?" there are 10 responses on how he can stick the paper up his behind and 5 more on how j pierce actually stole that paper from the UAL guys. The pettiness has to stop so we can ask the hard questions. And actually listen to the answers.
With that said, why did pierce make the deal? The company came to him to give PS. Does that sound like the company we all know and love (hate)? Something else was either implicitly promised or explicitly agreed to. I laugh every time somebody says that this was something the CAL MEC "negotiated". Is that what they call it when the company wants to give you something?
I think the UAL MEC never wanted a deal and thus made a decision to ask for something the company wouldn't give. Maybe they thought CAL agreed with that philosophy. As sad as it is, the TPA should have expired completely on Dec 31. No more deals with the company until they hand us the whole enchilada. They could do it in two weeks flat if they wanted to. We give them no reason to want to. Frats. -ML

In regards to your first paragraph I would hope you are not experiencing that. We are pissed at JP but we assume he does NOT represent the pilot group. (No pun intended)

In regards to your second paragrapg, I agree. The fact that the company wanted to do it should have been a major red flag!!!

 

[whatitdoing?]

I don't know where you heard that. This is the second time I have read this from you. It is not true. We have not received a pay raise since 1998. The profit sharing was never voted away. It expired when our contract expired. Because we had announced the merger and had agreed to JCBA talks, the TPA extended the profit sharing for a year. It was assumed that the JCBA would be done in less than 6 months however we are where we are and the profit sharing was only extended for a year. We never voted it away and certainly have not received higher pay.

So Eagle was corrected again? Amazing. Also Eagle, if you get 2 profit sharing checks for 2011, then how's that not double. It's suppose to be equals right? Sure, it's in your contract. Congrats!! We would of been without and your ok with that. Typical United. Now you're whining because your MEC lost their strategy. You guys wanted us to pass on ps just because. I'm sure you guys would of done the same. Just like the 747 pay issue right? Not like pay increases for everyone, you guys wanted super premium pay for you guys. Ya, seniority grab huh? Classic United. Why is your merger committee blocking our request for information from United? Why did your merger committee meet with our counterparts and throw them a floppy disk and walk out? Ya working together.

 

[Andy]

Read Kravits report on there. For what it's worth it was validated at the council 12 meeting today. Jay P is compromised plain and simple. With his employment history how can he possibly not be in managements pocket. That makes him very difficult to work with, ie can you trust him. Very difficult situation. The CO MEC ,to their credit,was not unaminously in favor of his actions re profit sharing.

If you're going to use Kravit's view of the world as gospel then you need to organize recall votes for Heppner and Perry. Or are you going to ignore Kravit's post titled: 'Heppener and Perry: Mutineers, Dumb, or Just Dumb Mutineers'?

 

[airksk]

I'm so glad you started this thread, there really isn't enough bitching at each other on every other web forum. Let's face it, we pissed of L-UAL enough they passed a bunch of stupid resolutions in ORD. Now they'll really piss us off, what could possibly go wrong?

We could have followed Delta's example, or USAirways. The company very easily goaded us into the USAirways model. Great choices all around. I know, let's see how else we can screw with each other while not getting a new contract!

 

[skywdriver]

Jay said it himself during the last conference call. I called my buddy that's in a position to know this and he confirmed that it's being discussed seriously this week. Whether or not they go down this path, who knows!! But, I was told that more and more people within CALALPA's MEC are starting to be in favor of it. My buddy even said he thinks it's a real possibility that might not be all that bad for us. He stated that it's a shame the United pilots are being misrepresented by their union and it's gonna be a disaster for them. Good luck United folks, I hope we leave JCBA and bid a farewell.

Were you listening to the same conference call I was??? JP very clearly stated that the reps were totally against the idea of negotiating a contract just on the CAL side. He mentioned multiple times that our focus on a JCBA has not changed. This whole post is a joke unless that statement made in the conference call was utter BS. You are just feeding the fire with this garbage.

 

[nimtz]

Were you listening to the same conference call I was??? JP very clearly stated that the reps were totally against the idea of negotiating a contract just on the CAL side. He mentioned multiple times that our focus on a JCBA has not changed. This whole post is a joke unless that statement made in the conference call was utter BS. You are just feeding the fire with this garbage.

Don't bother bringing facts and reasoning to the bomb tossers on each side. Hey at least this thread is reaching the spent testosterone levels of the LUV-Citrus Slugfests.

Btw Eagle, well played with the 'Kravit Report' and the no profit sharing for a raise claim. You are bringing the truth like The Reverend on Sunday! Did you know that Abbott's daughter is married to Pierce's Best Man!?!

 

[talespin]

I don't know where you heard that. This is the second time I have read this from you. It is not true. We have not received a pay raise since 1998. The profit sharing was never voted away. It expired when our contract expired. Because we had announced the merger and had agreed to JCBA talks, the TPA extended the profit sharing for a year. It was assumed that the JCBA would be done in less than 6 months however we are where we are and the profit sharing was only extended for a year. We never voted it away and certainly have not received higher pay.

He speaks the truth!

 

[eaglesview]

So Eagle was corrected again? Amazing. Also Eagle, if you get 2 profit sharing checks for 2011, then how's that not double. It's suppose to be equals right? Sure, it's in your contract. Congrats!! We would of been without and your ok with that. Typical United. Now you're whining because your MEC lost their strategy. You guys wanted us to pass on ps just because. I'm sure you guys would of done the same. Just like the 747 pay issue right? Not like pay increases for everyone, you guys wanted super premium pay for you guys. Ya, seniority grab huh? Classic United. Why is your merger committee blocking our request for information from United? Why did your merger committee meet with our counterparts and throw them a floppy disk and walk out? Ya working together.

Sometimes you make sense sometimes you don't.

We didn't want double we wanted an equal increase. How is that not fair??? You DESERVE PS no doubt. We deserved an equal increase. If you do not agree with that then there are major issues with your thinking.

We put the 747 issue to rest as this was industry standard (Delta) and there was no chance of that sticking. That said I think the 747 should pay more, not for our guys but for whoever is flying them. You seem to be assuming it would only be our side which is making an assumption about the SLI before it is done. The pay was banded at the time of the snapshot. I would think that is all you need to meet your needs for an arbitrator.

If by Information you mean the W2 issue I hope your kidding. Joe Blow can go on line and see what we make I have to assume your MEC knows as well.

 

[eaglesview]

Jay said it himself during the last conference call. I called my buddy that's in a position to know this and he confirmed that it's being discussed seriously this week. Whether or not they go down this path, who knows!! But, I was told that more and more people within CALALPA's MEC are starting to be in favor of it. My buddy even said he thinks it's a real possibility that might not be all that bad for us. He stated that it's a shame the United pilots are being misrepresented by their union and it's gonna be a disaster for them. Good luck United folks, I hope we leave JCBA and bid a farewell.

The two Jays were in Chicago just yesrterday meeting with the company. Doesn't really add up to the title of this thread.

 

[bluefin]

First off if UCH is going to offer $40 million to one side is it wrong to ask for the equivilant on the other. We are in this together are we not??

UALALPA wanted money equivilant to CAL. Compant said no?? UALALPA wanted to stop UCH from putting CAL in our hubs and UAL in CAL hubs. This was intended to continue to put preasure on the company on behalf of BOTH sides to negotiate. The company said no.. They countered with Forlough protection and something else small which I can not recall right now. Both of these were deemed by our MEC as worthless. The forlough protection in particular as A. The company is cancelling LOA's and forcing people back for the summer flying and B, everyone knows 65 kicks in in December. On top of that the CO MEC has our back right???? NO. This is where JP was underhanded. While our MC was out of the country he negotiated with the company for the PF for the CO side and left us. That is what happened plane and simple. If you think I don't trust him you are right. Tell me what he has done to make you think he is trustworthy.

Nobody wants to answer the question of how he comes back to CO with seniority without being in managements pocket. Could you leave and come back with seniority. I know I sure as hell could not.

UALALPA was not trying to get "double profit sharing" We attempted to get something of equal value. Please tell me what in a union setting is wrong with that? By the way it's not a PR nightmare it's a JCBA nightmare.

Thats the problem with UAL, only looking out for the senior pilots, FURLOUGH PROTECTION IS WORTHLESS!!!!????? You my friend have probably never been put on the street, KISS MY %^&$#*( !@#

 

[mishap]

The two Jays were in Chicago just yesrterday meeting with the company. Doesn't really add up to the title of this thread.

According to my sources, there is no intention, nor should there be, to stop negotiating for a JCBA.

This is all just noise eagle, try not to add to it. Every time you try to defend your leaders, or I try to defend mine, the rift between us becomes greater. Ultimately, we are on the same team, and we need to move forward together. Leadership issue's will be dealt with in time.

 

[Yuppyguppy]

Is this going to be USAIR II??????????

 

[whatitdoing?]

Were you listening to the same conference call I was??? JP very clearly stated that the reps were totally against the idea of negotiating a contract just on the CAL side. He mentioned multiple times that our focus on a JCBA has not changed. This whole post is a joke unless that statement made in the conference call was utter BS. You are just feeding the fire with this garbage.

Jeez skywdriver, never had an issue with you. First of all, what's the title of my post? It says 'considering'. You even admit that it was brought up during the conference call. So, I just pulled it out of my arse? That led me to start making some phone calls and it came to my attention that it's being discussed more and more as we go along. Call your reps, it's being discussed this week. It's an option on the table and it CONCERNS me. So call the post BS, you just validated it by saying that JP discussed it. What, you think it's left the table? Please.........

 

[whatitdoing?]

Sometimes you make sense sometimes you don't.

We didn't want double we wanted an equal increase. How is that not fair??? You DESERVE PS no doubt. We deserved an equal increase. If you do not agree with that then there are major issues with your thinking.

We put the 747 issue to rest as this was industry standard (Delta) and there was no chance of that sticking. That said I think the 747 should pay more, not for our guys but for whoever is flying them. You seem to be assuming it would only be our side which is making an assumption about the SLI before it is done. The pay was banded at the time of the snapshot. I would think that is all you need to meet your needs for an arbitrator.

If by Information you mean the W2 issue I hope your kidding. Joe Blow can go on line and see what we make I have to assume your MEC knows as well.

First of all, call it what you want. Call it a ps check and a bonus and you're right. Call it a ps check plus another ps check equal to what I got, then I'm right. But, if you're getting twice what I'm getting because we were left out in the first place, then you're getting..........oh man, my head hurts. Look, we signed a Transition Agreement with protection for you, hiring your furlough pilots, and we didn't get profit sharing. We just wanted our cut and now all this is happening. It's destroying everything.

So you've left the 747 pay issue huh? You guys just passed a resolution bringing it back. Not only is it completely without merit, it's a seniority grab. This stuff is going to hit the fan and ignite USAir Part II if we don't get control over it. I'm serious, this is getting really bad.

A vote of no confidence? You guys move quick. I can't believe this move by UALALPA to cover their mistakes. Unbelievable!! Our MEC Chair simply gets us profit sharing and all this. This whole thing is going up in smoke.

 

[catIIIc]

The two Jays were in Chicago just yesrterday meeting with the company. Doesn't really add up to the title of this thread.

Exactly and the results of that meeting will come out tomorrow, I think the focus will be put back where it should be, the JCBA.

 

[densoo]

leaving JCBA...or maybe not

January 12, 2012

Dear United Pilots:

On Tuesday, I met with ALPA President Captain Lee Moak and CAL-MEC Chairman Captain Jay Pierce in Chicago to discuss the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA), despite the profit sharing dispute, and how best to proceed in attaining a joint contract. Despite the UAL-MEC’s pursuit of legal and contractual rights we may have over the process of the Continental pilots’ inclusion in the company’s United 2011 Profit Sharing, we continue to work together as leaders and MECs towards the JCBA. Captain Pierce and I agree that any disagreements between us should not affect our working relationship in achieving the best contract that we can for the collective good of our 12,000 United pilots. Business is business, and disputes are best handled by those we employ to handle disputes—legal counsel, grievance committees, etc. These types of disputes are not and should not ever be personal.

On Wednesday, Captain Pierce, United MEC Vice Chairman Captain Rick Perry and I met with Messrs. Mike Bonds and Doug McKeen to discuss Transition and Process Agreement (TPA) Section 13-A extensions. All parties have agreed to continue discussions related to the TPA extension and all desire a resolution to this matter in the very near future.

The majority of Wednesday’s meeting with management was spent discussing how to complete the JCBA in the near term. Everyone at the meeting acknowledges that the JCBA will solve most, if not all, of our issues and the company’s issues as well. Senior management has committed to attend our JCBA negotiating sessions, beginning next week. Management is expected to return a scheduling proposal to the JNC on Wednesday.

We are at a juncture that will define our future relationships with others and how soon we achieve our JCBA. Stay focused on the contract; everything else is a distraction.

We are United,

Captain Jay Heppner
Chairman, United MEC

 

[tmac3333]

Thanks Densoo for some relevant info.

 

[whatitdoing?]

January 12, 2012

Dear United Pilots:

On Tuesday, I met with ALPA President Captain Lee Moak and CAL-MEC Chairman Captain Jay Pierce in Chicago to discuss the Joint Collective Bargaining Agreement (JCBA), despite the profit sharing dispute, and how best to proceed in attaining a joint contract. Despite the UAL-MEC’s pursuit of legal and contractual rights we may have over the process of the Continental pilots’ inclusion in the company’s United 2011 Profit Sharing, we continue to work together as leaders and MECs towards the JCBA. Captain Pierce and I agree that any disagreements between us should not affect our working relationship in achieving the best contract that we can for the collective good of our 12,000 United pilots. Business is business, and disputes are best handled by those we employ to handle disputes—legal counsel, grievance committees, etc. These types of disputes are not and should not ever be personal.

On Wednesday, Captain Pierce, United MEC Vice Chairman Captain Rick Perry and I met with Messrs. Mike Bonds and Doug McKeen to discuss Transition and Process Agreement (TPA) Section 13-A extensions. All parties have agreed to continue discussions related to the TPA extension and all desire a resolution to this matter in the very near future.

The majority of Wednesday’s meeting with management was spent discussing how to complete the JCBA in the near term. Everyone at the meeting acknowledges that the JCBA will solve most, if not all, of our issues and the company’s issues as well. Senior management has committed to attend our JCBA negotiating sessions, beginning next week. Management is expected to return a scheduling proposal to the JNC on Wednesday.

We are at a juncture that will define our future relationships with others and how soon we achieve our JCBA. Stay focused on the contract; everything else is a distraction.

We are United,

Captain Jay Heppner
Chairman, United MEC

Yawn.....

 

[whatitdoing?]

Doesn't solve anything. The issue is trust and neither has it in one another. What else is he going to say? JP will never be trusted and your Council 12 needs a leash. The resolutions that were passed just shows the direction that the United folks wants to take this.