CAL MEC considering leaving JCBA

[whatitdoing?]

You heard it here first!!! Seems that it's been discussed....hold on!!!!

 

[Patriot328]

Well now that would be interesting.

 

[whatitdoing?]

It's being discussed this week. I think things have broken down so bad between our MEC's, it's counter productive to stay in JCBA with our United counterparts. It's a real shame if this happens, but I'm fine with being on this side of the fence. United has absolutely NO furlough protection with a management that's eager to park a lot of their planes. If the United side decides to continue their song and dance, figure leave talks, wish em luck.

 

[mishap]

What is your source for this?

 

[eaglesview]

It's being discussed this week. I think things have broken down so bad between our MEC's, it's counter productive to stay in JCBA with our United counterparts. It's a real shame if this happens, but I'm fine with being on this side of the fence. United has absolutely NO furlough protection with a management that's eager to park a lot of their planes. If the United side decides to continue their song and dance, figure leave talks, wish em luck.

Typical CO pilot. " I'm in, pull up the rope." What song and dance are refering to exactly?

 

[Andy]

Typical CO pilot. " I'm in, pull up the rope." What song and dance are refering to exactly?

As a furloughed UAL pilot, I'd definitely pin that generalism on LUAL pilots, not LCAL pilots.
Kravit's rant was an embarrassment to all LUAL pilots. When I first read Kravit's complaints against Pierce, my thought was that UALALPA did a LOUSY job of preparation for the meeting. They went in asking for a bunch of things. When UALALPA got a portion of their list of demands at no cost, Kravit chose to put zero value on what was given to them. I think that most of the pilots on property at the bottom of the list do not put zero value on no furlough and flying ratio protections.
Allow me to put value on those two freebies. $40 million. How do I figure? 400 pilots furloughed with a salary of $100K/yr. There ya go. And OF COURSE someone like Kravit puts no value on those company gives. He's at the top of the seniority list and doesn't gain jacksquat from the last 400 LUAL pilots keeping their jobs.

To all LCAL pilots, my apologies. Kravit is a loose cannon. Unfortunately, there are some brain dead zombies at LUAL who feasted on Kravit's rant like it was a piece of raw meat.

 

[outerlimits]

Typical CO pilot. " I'm in, pull up the rope." What song and dance are refering to exactly?

Not sure how you can say that. Every UAL pilot I talk to feel the CAL is/was a second rate company compared to UAL

I know the feeling.

 

[mishap]

As a furloughed UAL pilot, I'd definitely pin that generalism on LUAL pilots, not LCAL pilots.
Kravit's rant was an embarrassment to all LUAL pilots. When I first read Kravit's complaints against Pierce, my thought was that UALALPA did a LOUSY job of preparation for the meeting. They went in asking for a bunch of things. When UALALPA got a portion of their list of demands at no cost, Kravit chose to put zero value on what was given to them. I think that most of the pilots on property at the bottom of the list do not put zero value on no furlough and flying ratio protections.
Allow me to put value on those two freebies. $40 million. How do I figure? 400 pilots furloughed with a salary of $100K/yr. There ya go. And OF COURSE someone like Kravit puts no value on those company gives. He's at the top of the seniority list and doesn't gain jacksquat from the last 400 LUAL pilots keeping their jobs.

To all LCAL pilots, my apologies. Kravit is a loose cannon. Unfortunately, there are some brain dead zombies at LUAL who feasted on Kravit's rant like it was a piece of raw meat.

Andy, it is nice to hear a reasoned response from you on this. I have stopped going to the joint forum recently because of the rhetoric on there. I fully understand the UAL pilots anger, I just don't like the fact that some seem to be directing it at the CAL pilots. I feel that this is totally counter productive. If we allow the decisions of a few (on both sides) to tarnish the views of the average line pilots than we are doomed. We need to put this bs behind us and stand together to get an industry leading JCBA that brings you back to a lucrative career.

Those that want to fight this out in the court of public opinion are working against the line pilots of UAL and CAL.

 

[DontFeedTheBear]

As a furloughed UAL pilot, I'd definitely pin that generalism on LUAL pilots, not LCAL pilots.
Kravit's rant was an embarrassment to all LUAL pilots. When I first read Kravit's complaints against Pierce, my thought was that UALALPA did a LOUSY job of preparation for the meeting. They went in asking for a bunch of things. When UALALPA got a portion of their list of demands at no cost, Kravit chose to put zero value on what was given to them. I think that most of the pilots on property at the bottom of the list do not put zero value on no furlough and flying ratio protections.
Allow me to put value on those two freebies. $40 million. How do I figure? 400 pilots furloughed with a salary of $100K/yr. There ya go. And OF COURSE someone like Kravit puts no value on those company gives. He's at the top of the seniority list and doesn't gain jacksquat from the last 400 LUAL pilots keeping their jobs.

To all LCAL pilots, my apologies. Kravit is a loose cannon. Unfortunately, there are some brain dead zombies at LUAL who feasted on Kravit's rant like it was a piece of raw meat.

Andy reasonable response! But I think the cost is a lot higher. when you add in retirement, bennies, and employee costs, the number will go up quite a bit. Don't forget the money lost with downgrades as well. What about the block protection? L-UAL can be shrunk down and L-CAL could grow. What a setup for a whipsaw. We need to stay unified and get an industry leading JCBA.

 

[Andy]

Andy reasonable response! But I think the cost is a lot higher. when you add in retirement, bennies, and employee costs, the number will go up quite a bit. Don't forget the money lost with downgrades as well. What about the block protection? L-UAL can be shrunk down and L-CAL could grow. What a setup for a whipsaw. We need to stay unified and get an industry leading JCBA.

Bear, I wanted to keep things simple. I could have gone more indepth as far as the benefits to LUAL pilots but that would make my argument more assailable. So I used the KISS method.

A larger part of the problem is that the top of LUAL's seniority list dominates our MEC; they're insulated from the negative effects of their actions on those below them. And quite frankly, their history indicates that most don't care if the bottom of the seniority list is harmed by their actions.
Don't get me wrong; there are many senior pilots at LUAL who care about the entire seniority list. Unfortunately, they're drowned out by a very vocal portion of senior pilots. And there are more than a couple of LUAL pilots who will follow those vocal senior pilots over the cliff like lemmings.
The example that I have to offer up is the issue of longevity. Longevity is in Delta's contract and it was in Northwest's contract. But the UALALPA members that I've corresponded with have been giving me pushback on the subject. But if you talk about retro pay, they're all over that issue. I'm approached being furloughed 8 of 12 years on UAL property. Does my 8 year sacrifice not deserve longevity credit? Take into account that we had a no furlough clause in C2K; settled for longevity credit in ERP2. That longevity credit disappeared in C2003; likely horsetraded away for other benefits for those still on property.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Typical CO pilot. " I'm in, pull up the rope." What song and dance are refering to exactly?

And you're a typical UAL pilot stuck in your old ways. I'll tell you something, one day we'll wear the same uniform and you'll retire with the same attitude. I feel sorry for you.

 

[whatitdoing?]

As a furloughed UAL pilot, I'd definitely pin that generalism on LUAL pilots, not LCAL pilots.
Kravit's rant was an embarrassment to all LUAL pilots. When I first read Kravit's complaints against Pierce, my thought was that UALALPA did a LOUSY job of preparation for the meeting. They went in asking for a bunch of things. When UALALPA got a portion of their list of demands at no cost, Kravit chose to put zero value on what was given to them. I think that most of the pilots on property at the bottom of the list do not put zero value on no furlough and flying ratio protections.
Allow me to put value on those two freebies. $40 million. How do I figure? 400 pilots furloughed with a salary of $100K/yr. There ya go. And OF COURSE someone like Kravit puts no value on those company gives. He's at the top of the seniority list and doesn't gain jacksquat from the last 400 LUAL pilots keeping their jobs.

To all LCAL pilots, my apologies. Kravit is a loose cannon. Unfortunately, there are some brain dead zombies at LUAL who feasted on Kravit's rant like it was a piece of raw meat.

Finally a voice of reason. The problem is UAL ALPA and their agenda of dividing and destroying and delaying.
People like Eagle are the problem and the cancer of this merger.

 

[RT8VA]

I have to offer up is the issue of longevity. Longevity is in Delta's contract and it was in Northwest's contract. But the UALALPA members that I've corresponded with have been giving me pushback on the subject. But if you talk about retro pay, they're all over that issue. I'm approached being furloughed 8 of 12 years on UAL property. Does my 8 year sacrifice not deserve longevity credit?

I couldn't agree with you more, I believe that if you are doing the same flying when this is resolved as you were before that is about as fair as it gets. But you the Furloughs should get full pay for hire date, just like Delta extended to the NWA pilots its fair and it should happen.

 

[densoo]

A larger part of the problem is that the top of LUAL's seniority list dominates our MEC; they're insulated from the negative effects of their actions on those below them. And quite frankly, their history indicates that most don't care if the bottom of the seniority list is harmed by their actions.

Don't get me wrong; there are many senior pilots at LUAL who care about the entire seniority list. Unfortunately, they're drowned out by a very vocal portion of senior pilots. And there are more than a couple of LUAL pilots who will follow those vocal senior pilots over the cliff like lemmings.

This is exactly what I think happened with profit sharing. Those who know the the MEC Chair personally and are near to his seniority were vocal about being "left out." His blastmails of a couple of month's ago said "I hear you" on this. There were a lot of other pilots who didn't have his ear, who wanted to see a Feb 14 without profit sharing as being a wakeup call for CAL pilots. Won't happen now. Leverage deferred, JCBA delayed.

 

[whatitdoing?]

What is your source for this?

Jay said it himself during the last conference call. I called my buddy that's in a position to know this and he confirmed that it's being discussed seriously this week. Whether or not they go down this path, who knows!! But, I was told that more and more people within CALALPA's MEC are starting to be in favor of it. My buddy even said he thinks it's a real possibility that might not be all that bad for us. He stated that it's a shame the United pilots are being misrepresented by their union and it's gonna be a disaster for them. Good luck United folks, I hope we leave JCBA and bid a farewell.

 

[whatitdoing?]

This is exactly what I think happened with profit sharing. Those who know the the MEC Chair personally and are near to his seniority were vocal about being "left out." His blastmails of a couple of month's ago said "I hear you" on this. There were a lot of other pilots who didn't have his ear, who wanted to see a Feb 14 without profit sharing as being a wakeup call for CAL pilots. Won't happen now. Leverage deferred, JCBA delayed.

I agree with you. They only way to get our senior pilots on board with this is to deny them money. JP really screwed the pooch with this one. I understand his reasoning, but it wasn't his choice without the MEC's backing. He justified something and acted on his own and that's dangerous. He essentially gave up scope and if you're junior at CAL or UAL....that's a big big big problem. But for the United side to jump all over us and whine about it because we should of 'taken one for the team'....please. They played the game with a pair of 2's and management called their bluff. United ALPA has been going at it alone, got their arses handed to them, now turn it around as if we're to blame. Amazing.

 

[densoo]

It's being discussed this week. I think things have broken down so bad between our MEC's, it's counter productive to stay in JCBA with our United counterparts. It's a real shame if this happens, but I'm fine with being on this side of the fence. United has absolutely NO furlough protection with a management that's eager to park a lot of their planes. If the United side decides to continue their song and dance, figure leave talks, wish em luck.

This, unfortunately, is believable. My hope of getting at least UAL workrules seems to be fading fast.

At the start of the merger the two pilot groups had a choice to continue separate negotiations until their CBAs were reached and then start working a JCBA, or to jump right into JCBA. The upside benefit to the joint route was to be strength (leverage) in unity, the downside was that we might end up living under our old contracts much longer than if we'd just continued separately.

Looks like we may get the worst outcome of all, a return to separate CBA negotiations AFTER a two-year delay trying to do it jointly.

Nothing could please UCH more. They're obviously making money hand over fist with CAL workrules. If the UAL MEC can't veto our substandard workrules and UAL pilots can't vote against them, could another C02 debacle be sold separately to CAL pilots? Whatsitdoing, I hope you are wrong on this.

Other ominous actions could fall into place. DEN, ORD, SFO 737 bases, continued unproductive (non-rig protected) flying migrating to CAL, hiring more and more UAL pilots to fly under CAL workrules. It seems UCH is tring to prevent a US Air by just getting rid of one of the pilot groups entirely. Unbelievable.

 

[whatitdoing?]

This, unfortunately, is believable. My hope of getting at least UAL workrules seems to be fading fast.

At the start of the merger the two pilot groups had a choice to continue separate negotiations until CBAs were reached and then start working a JCBA, or to jump right into JCBA. The upside benefit to the joint route was to be strength (leverage) in unity, the downside was that we might end up living under our old contracts much longer than if we'd just continued separately.

Looks like we may get the worst outcome of all, a return to separate CBA negotiations AFTER a two-year delay trying to do it jointly.

Nothing could please UCH more. They're obviously making money hand over fist with CAL workrules. If the UAL MEC can't veto our substandard workrules and UAL pilots can't vote against them, could another C02 debacle be sold separately to CAL pilots? Whatsitdoing, I hope you are wrong on this.

Other ominous actions could fall into place. DEN, ORD, SFO 737 bases, continued unproductive (non-rig protected) flying migrating to CAL, hiring more and more UAL pilots to fly under CAL workrules. Maybe UCH is tring to prevent a US Air by just getting rid of one of the pilot groups entirely. Unbelievable.

Unfortunately Densoo, I think this is a path that we're on. UALALPA is a complete mess and it's gotten to a point where it's counterproductive. UALALPA continues to have an attitude where they think they're better and it's going to be to their demise. They continue to deceive and destroy any relationship we have with them. The United pilots are really being misrepresented here and they won't know it till it's done. Now they're sitting with no furlough protection and nothing to show for it. This managment has no problem furloughing just to make a point. If you're on the side where you have an aging fleet, overstaffed situation with no protection, what do you think will happen. It will happen, guaranteed. So I say leave JCBA, go it alone. It's very sad, but there comes a point where what's the point? You have to work as a team, but if the other side can't get it together, you have to break it up. I welcome it, hope for a better contract, and wish the United folks the best of luck.

 

[densoo]

I think this is way bigger than union politics or competence. It's about a giant corporation with $1000/hr lawyers continuing the destruction of the labor class.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Densoo, I agree. Problem is we have pilot negotiating contracts. We aren't trained for it and we're outmatched the second we walk in the door. Are you going to hire a ink tech to represent you in a labor contract because he prints the paper or are you gonna hire the 1000/hr knuckle dragging lawyer that loves to beat up managment? This is all about pilots protecting full flight pay loss while going out for filet steaks on a weekend instead of going to Quito at 2 am.
Union politics is destroying things and it's in UALALPA's court. They continue to screw up, blame the CAL side, and proceed on to the next dividing issue. God help us.

 

[densoo]

IMO union politics is just the symptom. The pilots themselves are the problem. Leadership can only exercise the leverage the pilots give it. If we collectively wanted an agreement it would come pretty quickly.

PS is the latest example. The pilots asked for $5k on Feb 14 rather than a chance to bring about a billion dollar joint contract. So on Feb 15, we go right back to the abuse.

I don't entirely disagree with the lack of expertise, but with the appropriate leverage, we could use a chisel and stone and the company would be amenable.

 

[whatitdoing?]

IMO union politics is just the symptom. The pilots themselves are the problem. Leadership can only exercise the leverage the pilots give it. If we collectively wanted an agreement it would come pretty quickly.

PS is the latest example. The pilots asked for $5k on Feb 14 rather than a chance to bring about a billion dollar joint contract. So on Feb 15, we go right back to the abuse.

I don't entirely disagree with the lack of expertise, but with the appropriate leverage, we could use a chisel and stone and the company would be amenable.

No completely true. JP justified the profit sharing because of doubts about our 767 grievance. JP is going to defend the interests of the CAL pilots. The 767 issue would of gone away as soon as the 787 came along. Also, there was no guarantee an arbitrator would put any merit to it as soon as the 787 came along, let alone monetary damages equal to what we got with profit sharing. So, your statement that on Feb 15th we'd be at square one would of come along with or without profit sharing. We didn't sell on 5k, we got what we deserved and earned. UALALPA just wanted us to pass on profit sharing as a sign of 'working together' and unity with them. It was very one sided and contrary to what JP's obligation is to his pilot group. UALALPA has a history, of which you admit, of making poor decisions for their pilot group. This is just another chapter in their book of failures. UALALPA hasn't included CALALPA or CAL pilots in any decision they've made. They've left us out, not included us, then blamed us for their failures. UALALPA has to own up their mistakes, change their strategy and get on board with getting a JCBA. The United pilots are going to lose big time and they don't even know it. Sad.

 

[jonjuan]

No completely true. JP justified the profit sharing because of doubts about our 767 grievance. JP is going to defend the interests of the CAL pilots. The 767 issue would of gone away as soon as the 787 came along. Also, there was no guarantee an arbitrator would put any merit to it as soon as the 787 came along, let alone monetary damages equal to what we got with profit sharing. So, your statement that on Feb 15th we'd be at square one would of come along with or without profit sharing. We didn't sell on 5k, we got what we deserved and earned. UALALPA just wanted us to pass on profit sharing as a sign of 'working together' and unity with them. It was very one sided and contrary to what JP's obligation is to his pilot group. UALALPA has a history, of which you admit, of making poor decisions for their pilot group. This is just another chapter in their book of failures. UALALPA hasn't included CALALPA or CAL pilots in any decision they've made. They've left us out, not included us, then blamed us for their failures. UALALPA has to own up their mistakes, change their strategy and get on board with getting a JCBA. The United pilots are going to lose big time and they don't even know it. Sad.

Would of? "I failed English. That's impossible.". Lol....

 

[eaglesview]

As a furloughed UAL pilot, I'd definitely pin that generalism on LUAL pilots, not LCAL pilots.
Kravit's rant was an embarrassment to all LUAL pilots. When I first read Kravit's complaints against Pierce, my thought was that UALALPA did a LOUSY job of preparation for the meeting. They went in asking for a bunch of things. When UALALPA got a portion of their list of demands at no cost, Kravit chose to put zero value on what was given to them. I think that most of the pilots on property at the bottom of the list do not put zero value on no furlough and flying ratio protections.
Allow me to put value on those two freebies. $40 million. How do I figure? 400 pilots furloughed with a salary of $100K/yr. There ya go. And OF COURSE someone like Kravit puts no value on those company gives. He's at the top of the seniority list and doesn't gain jacksquat from the last 400 LUAL pilots keeping their jobs.

To all LCAL pilots, my apologies. Kravit is a loose cannon. Unfortunately, there are some brain dead zombies at LUAL who feasted on Kravit's rant like it was a piece of raw meat.

Andy this is a rediculously misinformed post. Get the facts. Go on the United pilots forum read what happened. In fact you CO pilots need to go on the forum and read as well.

 

[mishap]

Andy this is a rediculously misinformed post. Get the facts. Go on the United pilots forum read what happened. In fact you CO pilots need to go on the forum and read as well.

Been on it, it's getting a bit out of control, and like everything there are 3 sides to a story, CAL side, UAL side, and the truth. It probably lies somewhere in between. The real question is are we going to be dragged into a battle between each other that no one wins, or are we going to come together as PILOTS and try and force our leaders to move past this and focus on the real issue, a JCBA.

 

[eaglesview]

Read Kravits report on there. For what it's worth it was validated at the council 12 meeting today. Jay P is compromised plain and simple. With his employment history how can he possibly not be in managements pocket. That makes him very difficult to work with, ie can you trust him. Very difficult situation. The CO MEC ,to their credit,was not unaminously in favor of his actions re profit sharing.

 

[RT8VA]

Did the CAL MEC leave all of these protections out of the UAL contract too Eagle, I didn't realize we negotiated and ratified that one. Seems to me a little misplaced anger because when the 767 grievance fell by the wayside or netted a wopping 30,000 dollar fine for the company like the 70 seat one did I am sure the UAL pilots wouldn't have cut us a check for half their profit sharing just to show what good unionists they are. Give me a break already.

 

[whatitdoing?]

Or better yet, they wanted to either leave us out of profit sharing, or get a higher percentage 'bonus' along with equal pay rates with us getting NOTHING. Ya, working together. We told them that managment would never go for it. They didn't listen, went all in with 2's and got called. Now there's fallout, and UALALPA is left pointing fingers. Amazing how its our fault now.

 

[eaglesview]

Did the CAL MEC leave all of these protections out of the UAL contract too Eagle, I didn't realize we negotiated and ratified that one. Seems to me a little misplaced anger because when the 767 grievance fell by the wayside or netted a wopping 30,000 dollar fine for the company like the 70 seat one did I am sure the UAL pilots wouldn't have cut us a check for half their profit sharing just to show what good unionists they are. Give me a break already.

Are you defending your MEC chairman and his actions?? if so tell me why. You understand that your profit sharing, which you deserve, is loose change for this company. In return they get a wedge they have stuck between the pilot groups. Is this good in the long run for any of us. I won't "give it a break." I believe Jay P has damaged our collective progress toward our contract. That makes me angry.

As for "did the CO MEC leave out the protection in the T&PE" (not contract) of course not. Our former MEC chairwoman was too optimistic that a contract would have been reached brfore the sunset. Does that give the CO side the right to say "oh too bad for them lets grab ours." I'll let you answer that one.

By the way I am still waiting for a CO pilot to explain to me how Jay P leaves the company and then comes back, gets his original seniority back without being in someones pocket. Abbott?? It's a serious question I am curious.

 

[eaglesview]

Or better yet, they wanted to either leave us out of profit sharing, or get a higher percentage 'bonus' along with equal pay rates with us getting NOTHING. Ya, working together. We told them that managment would never go for it. They didn't listen, went all in with 2's and got called. Now there's fallout, and UALALPA is left pointing fingers. Amazing how its our fault now.

Again get the facts on what the company offered and what we were asking for.