CAL dropping Colgan?

[DontFeedTheBear]

You guys really don't get it do you? It's UNECONOMICAL to put mainline jets on those routes and/or give the Qs to mainline. Regionals serve a purpose to both mainline management and aspiring up and coming pilots. Management likes them because they are an economical source of lift and newbie pilots like them because they can build their time at the regionals beforing getting on at a major. Everyone actually wins in this scenairio.

Spoken like a true die hard regional guy. The more flying the regionals get/keep, the longer for you to get to a major and start a more fruitful career. If you get your head out of your a$$ and stop worrying about the economies of it, you will be rewarded with that career much sooner...

 

[The Drizzle]

DontFeedTheBear,

Don't feed the troll.

 

[Thurman Merman]

I am sure there are plenty of good pilots at your airline. But the combo of bad management and poor training department checking allowed at least 4 horrible pilots through the process. Every Capt. who flew with the crash PICs(won't dignify them by mentioning their names), when they were F/O carry some guilt/responsibility for not pushing their names back to the flight training office. The Capts who flew with the crash F/Os who didn't see/notice the deficiencies carry some also. If your company goes out of business, I will feel bad for the remaing crews, but they will have other opportunities to pursue, the victims of your coworkers will not have that opportunity. The victims bought tickets to travel, not fund a Starbucks Barrista's flight training.
Sorry if this is harsh, but there 50+ people who died in smoking craters who might argue this isn't harsh enough.
PBR

I didn't know the Captain but I knew the FO well and flew with her quite a bit so you're including me in your blanket statement. First of all she was a damn good pilot and I never had a safety issue with her nor did other Captains. How can I speak for other Captains, because ORF was a tight knit group and Captains discussed FO's regularly. When she came to work she was proffesional and a joy to fly with. She was hired on with 1500 hrs because she went the traditional route not the 300 hour wonderway. On top of that she had a good attitude and was eager to learn. She worked at a coffee shop, not starbucks, because she needed extra money to pay off flight training costs incurred by loans. Did you survive on your 20,000 dollar paycheck or were you financed and not have to worry? When her second job was taking a toll, she did the responsible thing and quit. I'm not selling the Captain down the river but when the airspeed decayed, the FO is configuring the airplane. If you have never flown a Q or turboprop, final approach is very busy for the PNF, bringing the gear down, lowering flaps, pushing up condition levers, and throwing switches and buttons on the overhead and pedestal. I'm not saying airspeed should not be included in a scan for the PNF during this time but understand her workload. 30 West hit the nail on the head with corporate culture because the average line pilot and line check airmen and sim instructors are a good group inspite of management.

With your take on things, Eagle should have had their doors shut ages ago, Captain feathering the wrong engine in a single engine situation short of RDU, Crew inattention in ice and holding leaving a crater in Roselawn. How did this happen, especially with their hiring standards, they only hire the best. As 30 West stated, even one person lost is a tragedy, but Colgan has been operating since 1965, please come up with a company's statistical loss rate for 45 years. There are some airlines that have killed more people in one flight than Colgan has killed in 45 years. Keep in mind, I am only talking in cold hard numbers, not the personal affect and devastation that comes from losing someone.

 

[suupah]

That's what you have to say everyday when you go to work for them. Reality is they have a body count that is difficult to overlook.
PBR

and what is the body count over at eagle, asa, comair and expressjet? are they also unsafe?

 

[jetpig32]

If you have never flown a Q or turboprop, final approach is very busy for the PNF, bringing the gear down, lowering flaps, pushing up condition levers, and throwing switches and buttons on the overhead and pedestal.

PNF was ditched for the term PM at many airlines, because it represents CRM more accurately. The FO was was 100% PNF, not a PM. God forbid he/she would have to move a few levers and swithces and still have to monitor the progress of the flight and other crewmember.

 

[Browntothebone]

Spoken like a true die hard regional guy. The more flying the regionals get/keep, the longer for you to get to a major and start a more fruitful career. If you get your head out of your a$$ and stop worrying about the economies of it, you will be rewarded with that career much sooner...

No. If mainline jets flew where regionals fly today, the mainline would be in BK before you know it. The public demands frequency AND low fares. You can only get the two with using regional airlines.

 

[Hypoxik]

No. If mainline jets flew where regionals fly today, the mainline would be in BK before you know it. The public demands frequency AND low fares. You can only get the two with using regional airlines.

Hey you RAH puke. AirTran/JetBlue/SouthWest. Plus I see a`lot of AA MD80's along with Delta 80's and NWA DC-9 doing a bunch of the "RJ" runs. You are flame baiting on every thread.

 

[OCP]

I'm not selling the Captain down the river but when the airspeed decayed, the FO is configuring the airplane. If you have never flown a Q or turboprop, final approach is very busy for the PNF, bringing the gear down, lowering flaps, pushing up condition levers, and throwing switches and buttons on the overhead and pedestal. I'm not saying airspeed should not be included in a scan for the PNF during this time but understand her workload.

Sorry man, but the FO very much SHOULD HAVE been looking that the airspeed. I've flown turbo props much less advanced than that Q so don't think I say this as a jet guy or something. I think the CA was the most at fault, but there was no help from the FO from the video I've seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxywEE1kK6I

 

[PBRstreetgang]

First of all she was a damn good pilot and I never had a safety issue with her nor did other Captains.

I would think the Captain she last flew with would beg to differ.
While he was pitching up into the stall she retracted the flaps, by definition doing the wrong thing uncommanded makes her an incompetent, and by that virtue, well unsafe. If you dont have the skills to recognize that, well....
BTW after I made my first dollar flying as a commercial pilot I never paid another penny for anything related to operating an aircraft, except for a Jepp subscription(NOS was supplied), airlane rentals, or training. I got my ATP at upgrade.
PBR

 

[Uncle Bunkle]

CAL has in their contract a clause that says they can cancel the contract with Colgan "if there is an accident or incident that causes CAL great embarrassment."

HA!!! Okay, you ******************************, because you've seen CAL's contract, I'm sure...

 

[30West]

I would think the Captain she last flew with would beg to differ.
While he was pitching up into the stall she retracted the flaps, by definition doing the wrong thing uncommanded makes her an incompetent, and by that virtue, well unsafe. If you dont have the skills to recognize that, well....
BTW after I made my first dollar flying as a commercial pilot I never paid another penny for anything related to operating an aircraft, except for a Jepp subscription(NOS was supplied), airlane rentals, or training. I got my ATP at upgrade.
PBR

While this F/O was no Scott Crossfield, didn't they both go out doing something stupid, and unintentional? I'm sure he didn't set out that day intending to fall out of a thunderhead in a thousand pieces.
Does that mean that he was also, using your own template above, incompetent and unsafe? Is that what the epilogue to his life should read?

 

[ratherbeflyen]

I'd put more salt on the rumor of colgan in houston than colgan being cut. At this point anyway.

 

[motch]

Unfortunately, Colgan is going nowhere..
(At least for 2 years)

And I do not mean that in a negative way towards Colgan crews. My first ever solo student is a Captain there (Q400) and I do not wish to see him or any one else loose their jobs.

But CAL currently has 147 pilots on Furlough and that should not happen without our regionals also furloughing or downsizing. I would like to see a clause that -
a) Puts furloughed mainline pilots in the Left seat of ANY commuter that grows while mainline furloughs.
b) Stops all growth at the commuter the second that mainline furloughs.

Don't get me wrong, I also think that the commuters should get preferrential hiring at their associated mainline carrier. One hand has to and should wash the other~

motch

 

[HOMER D POE]

in a perfect systenm, like minor league baseball, a commuter captain would be captive to their major and wait for the "callup" to the big leagues.

as for the PM , it is understood why you would want to defend her if you knew her, but in the moments short as they were, she failed to monitor (she was the last line of defense)(that other precious pair of eyes) and she raised the flaps without a call to do so at the most inappropiate time . may she rest in peace. we can only learn from her and marvin's shortcomings. regrettably this can do nothing to console the families who lost loved ones that thought they were buying a CAL product. if they knew then what we know now, they would have never set foot on the ramp. ..in a million years. as they say, would you let this guy fly your family?

 

[nerjdriver]

and what is the body count over at eagle, asa, comair and expressjet? are they also unsafe?

This is like those SAT/ACT questions we all took when you have a group of words and you have to find which one doesn't belong..

A) ExpressJet
B) Comair
C) ASA
D) Eagle
E) Colgan

so...high lord of pointless airline comparisons....which one doesn't fit?

 

[eyeamthechosen1]

I could see them dropping Gulfsream but who knows

 

[PBRstreetgang]

While this F/O was no Scott Crossfield, didn't they both go out doing something stupid, and unintentional? I'm sure he didn't set out that day intending to fall out of a thunderhead in a thousand pieces.
Does that mean that he was also, using your own template above, incompetent and unsafe? Is that what the epilogue to his life should read?

Well,
While I knew Scott Crossfield, his situation was slightly different, he had only himself on board and had a long and distinguished career as a test pilot. There was a question as to whether or not he was having a medical issue and thus was unable to save himself . This F/O couldn't even do the right thing when it was needed most, a simple "check your airspeed" would have saved the day. She should have kept the coffee shop job, at least she might have been qualified for that. As far as Scotts epilogue, his career speaks for it's self and at least he died doing what he had spent the last 50 years doing so well, and did I mention he was SOLO, no one else was hurt.
PBR

 

[Browntothebone]

Unfortunately, Colgan is going nowhere..
(At least for 2 years)

And I do not mean that in a negative way towards Colgan crews. My first ever solo student is a Captain there (Q400) and I do not wish to see him or any one else loose their jobs.

But CAL currently has 147 pilots on Furlough and that should not happen without our regionals also furloughing or downsizing. I would like to see a clause that -
a) Puts furloughed mainline pilots in the Left seat of ANY commuter that grows while mainline furloughs.
b) Stops all growth at the commuter the second that mainline furloughs.

Don't get me wrong, I also think that the commuters should get preferrential hiring at their associated mainline carrier. One hand has to and should wash the other~

motch

What about the more qualified military pilots? They should get preference at a major over ANY regional pilot.

 

[Browntothebone]

in a perfect systenm, like minor league baseball, a commuter captain would be captive to their major and wait for the "callup" to the big leagues.

as for the PM , it is understood why you would want to defend her if you knew her, but in the moments short as they were, she failed to monitor (she was the last line of defense)(that other precious pair of eyes) and she raised the flaps without a call to do so at the most inappropiate time . may she rest in peace. we can only learn from her and marvin's shortcomings. regrettably this can do nothing to console the families who lost loved ones that thought they were buying a CAL product. if they knew then what we know now, they would have never set foot on the ramp. ..in a million years. as they say, would you let this guy fly your family?

What if your "big league" major was the Kansas City Royals of the majors?

 

[CptMurf]

This is like those SAT/ACT questions we all took when you have a group of words and you have to find which one doesn't belong..

A) ExpressJet
B) Comair
C) ASA
D) Eagle
E) Colgan

so...high lord of pointless airline comparisons....which one doesn't fit?

D) Eagle... they were the only one that didn't have a pay-for-training program in the 90's?

Also XJ is the oldest operating regional (over 60 years) and has had (knock on wood) NO fatalities. Although, they did have a pax stabbed in the leg with a windshield wiper, but I digress.

 

[Snaab]

D) Although, they did have a pax stabbed in the leg with a windshield wiper, but I digress.

Let's hear about it.

 

[CptMurf]

Let's hear about it.

Goose hits FO's windshield wiper.... crew screams
Windshield wiper goes into prop....punctures ice shield and stabs pax... pax screams
FA (in jumpseat with no idea whats going on) gets up after landing sees pax... FA screams

What are the odds????

 

[xjhawk]

colgan crashes a plane they fly for Continental and delta has to pay the Liability? wow

 

[livin'thesim]

What about the more qualified military pilots? They should get preference at a major over ANY regional pilot.

That is so true! A regional pilot with four type ratings and thousands of hours in a 50 or 70 seat jet is clearly inferior to a 2000 hour fighter jock. Why, I bet that regional captain wouldn't even know how to call for pushback in an Airbus.

I've spent far too much time in the sim to fall for that one. The civ/mil debate is over, and has been over for a long time. The answer on who is better turned out to be "depends on the person".

 

[Browntothebone]

That is so true! A regional pilot with four type ratings and thousands of hours in a 50 or 70 seat jet is clearly inferior to a 2000 hour fighter jock. Why, I bet that regional captain wouldn't even know how to call for pushback in an Airbus.

I've spent far too much time in the sim to fall for that one. The civ/mil debate is over, and has been over for a long time. The answer on who is better turned out to be "depends on the person".

All you have to do is tell the military guy how to call for a pushback. Once and it's done. Who would you rather have in an aircraft upset condition, a military pilot who has been through extensive training in acrobatics or your "typical" regional captain (3407dude)?

 

[twott driver]

"acrobatics...." isn't that what they do in the circus? Seems like you may be well acquainted with "acrobatics" in that case, clown.

Yes, I'd definately prefer to have someone well versed in jumping through hoops rather than someone getting the plane greasy side down. How difficult can it be anyway?

 

[livin'thesim]

Sigh.

The sim tells a different story. I always chuckle at people who spend too much energy pointing to their training. Are you saying that had you not received military training, you would not feel qualified to fly a mainline aircraft? So you are not intrinsically capable of developing enough skill without the benefit of military training?

Somehow I doubt that is what you're saying.

Spend enough time training pilots and you learn that civilian/military and even total time and previous experience rarely gives you anything more than a general indication of the skill level of the pilot you will be training.

A high time RJ pilot flying a 70-seat jet is already doing the job that they will do at mainline. The idea that an F-16 pilot will somehow transition to an Airbus in a superior way than an regional jet captain (all other things being equal) is really silly. It's so silly that some people will actually believe it.

And regarding your upset scenario, if someone lets the airplane get into that situation, I guess I really wonder about their skills anyway. I will say that if I was flying along in an airliner and another airliner wanted to engage in aerial combat, I would gladly hand the controls over to the ex-mil guy.

But like I said, the argument is over and the answer is "it depends on the pilot".

Feel free to try and litigate a closed case, the industry has already shown that it does not matter to them.

 

[climbhappy]

anyone cared to check loads from from 5 months ago vs today? do people care now?...

 

[Data]

Who would you rather have in an aircraft upset condition, a military pilot who has been through extensive training in acrobatics or your "typical" regional captain (3407dude)?

Hmmmm.....

"Acrobatics involves difficult feats of balance, agility and motor coordination. Nearly any performance or sport which involves full-body activity-- especially in short, highly controlled bursts of activity-- can be considered acrobatics. Typical examples are, first and foremost, all the subdivisions of gymnastics and trapeze work, but specialized activities like ballet and diving could also be included. In a narrow sense, the term "acrobatics" refers to "acrobatic gymnastics," a specialized subdivision of gymnastics."


I'll take the military pilot that specializes in trapeze work and ballet...

 

[yoborracho]

ethical?

how about you guys not flying for MIDWEST pilots at 50% rates.

and expressjet and every other carrier chicktaqua has cherrypicked.