Bye Bye Air Wiskey

[KingAirKiddo]

ACA and AWAC...that would be AWESOME!

 

[mckpickle]

The race to the bottome continues. We can thank MESA, Skywest , for signing a contract that flys 70 seats at 50 seat wages.

How is this not taking jobs away from others by agreeing to work for less than your worth.

We are our own worst enemy and unless this cycle is broken we will spen the next 15 years trying to recover.

 

[CF34-3B1]

3. CHQ pilots nail out a good TA

Those rates are no better, and in most cases worse than ASA's FIVE YEARD OLD rates.

How is it a good TA if it's no better than ASA's old contract?

 

[AirBoard]

I hate to say it but relying on UAL for your regional growth may become a deadend street. Nothing to get exited about. UAL is in serious trouble folks, it's REALLY BAD. When I joined ACA I was excited about our future potential on the UAL side but after the BAin process and their treatment of UAX carriers it left most with a bitter taste in their mouths. Any new flying will be done for bargain basement rates, almost unsustainable. I''m glad we're not selling ourselves out for bargain rates only to be left with 100 RJs when UAL can't afford to lose $2 Billion anymore......

 

[g159av8tor]

Thank God (or Pfizer) for percocet and beer...

 

[PilotRon]

Those rates are no better, and in most cases worse than ASA's FIVE YEARD OLD rates.

How is it a good TA if it's no better than ASA's old contract?

Simple, WE ARE NOT ASA!,

 

[captjim]

Simple, WE ARE NOT ASA!,

You're right!

 

[Corbon]

It is unreal how the same pilots that bashed Mesa for signing their POS are now defending their own POS. Whatever happened to CHQ pilots are going to raise the bar? You don't raise the bar unless you get a better contract than the best one in place.

Oh really? And I suppose in your world you don't take economic conditions into consideration. Nobody expected us to get an industry leading contract. We wanted a fair contract that included more precise language, pay raises, good QOL, and put Republic away and we got that. Whether you agree with it or not, we do. In a time where management is using intimidation and threats to try to get what they want out of their pilot groups, we stood up to the man and said no. We have a great EC and I'm confident if they say this is the best we can get than it is. In 4 years, when the economy is hopefully flourishing, we'll go for a great contract. But for now we'll take a good contract and use it as a stepping stone for the next. Bash it all you want, call us Mesa, whatever. We don't really care what your satisfaction level is.

 

[CHQNewHire]

I am just curious who the insensitive putz is that would even start a post like this...I don't think you are a CHQ pilot, but if you are...show some class. Same with those that are jumping on this like it is a great thing to gain from someone else's loss.

At the same token...to those of you who can think for yourselves, if this does happen...please don't hold it against the CHQ pilot group. We are not the ones negotiating for this business.

Regarding those who are bad mouthing the TA and CHQ pilot group...read it first...then ask yourself, in this market of concessions, spiraling ticket prices and revenues, just how in your right mind can you justify continued pilot salaries skyrocketing in the opposite direction?

And don't give me...aren't you worth more? Sorry guys, I don't get to decide what I am worth. It can be negotiated to a certain point, but ultimately it is what the market dictates, and right now the market sucks...and yet our EC still managed modest pay increases, along with tremendous strides in other areas. I would say...pretty **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** good work for these trying times.

 

[46Driver]

I have to agree with Corbon: economics and the current state of the aviation industry dictates that there will be a disparity between pre 9/11 contracts and post 9/11 contracts.

 

[Carl_Everett]

Well treetop that whole post was wasted, b/c there is in fact a 60-78 seater wage in the new TA, and its not bad. If youd like, refer to my post under NEW CHq ta and also what is industry avg if youd like to see where is ranks among the other airlines. Have a great day.

Rates are not that bad? What are you comparing it to?

 

[cocknbull]

"Bye Bye Air Whiskey"

Sick Sick Sick

I see this thread has turned into who's balls are bigger, however I don't see anyone with a great contract. The fact is that regionals are regionals anywhere you go. Sure some contracts are better than others and some pilots agree to stupid stuff. The fact is regionals are there to make the majors money. If your company can't make them as much money as another than the other will takeover. As a result regional pilots will never get paid what they deserve. If you want a job that is good paying than support your major airline pilot brothers and support scope. Otherwise we will be stuck bitching on a regional jet forum the rest of our lives.

The other day I was at the bar and my friend was talking to a bubbly, unintelligent girl who is a Comair stewardess. She was blasting the pilots because she will make more her first year than her pilot boyfriend. I don't care who you are and how good your contract is; that is pathetic and that should never happen.

 

[MECH]

Great post. I hope we are finally seeing the big picture. We are killing our own careers.

 

[surplus1]

Gentlemen, here we go again tearing each other apart. What will it really take to make you all understand that we are simply playing the management game? They are winning because we collectively fire "blanks" at them, while we fire live ammunition at each other.

I'm not here to criticize the CHQ TA. I've read it and considering where you were, it is a significant improvement. Whether those improvements are enough to satisfy your needs is up to you all to decide. Your TA is not the problem.

The problem is that the viability of a business, particularly and airline, is not and should not be exclusively dependent on the compensation of its pilots or other employees. Eventually, it will not be possible to "lower wages" any more. What happens then?

What happens when everyone matches Mesa's bid for this business? Answer: Mesa makes a still lower bid. Then someone else matches that lower bid and bids even lower. Mesa matches and underbids again, etc., etc. At some point all of the bidders have presented "low bids" that do not allow them to operate at a profit, no matter what they pay the pilots or anybody else.

There is no purpose in being in business if you cannot operate at a profit. That is exactly why United is a failing business. Their business plan is designed for a dinosaur and dinosaurs are on the road to extinction. Low bids from Mesa, SKYW, AWAC or anybody else, including CHQ, are not going to "save United". Eventually all they will do is force the low bidders to join UAL in bankruptcy.

The management's of these "regional carriers" do not appear to be any brighter than the pilots of the regional carriers. Both of you seem to think that by "selling for less" or "working for less" you will somehow win the day. That is only true up to the point where your "low bid" makes you unprofitable. It is a stupid concept.

The entire "fee for departure" concept is also stupid. You cannot successfully run a business that is controlled completely by someone who has no interest whatever in the success of failure of your business. That is exactly what "fee for departure" does. When your "partner's" business fails (as in United and USAirways), your business fails too, and you have no control over the circumstances.

ACA management appears to have finally grasped that. The only problem is they are doing it at a very difficult time and the risk is great. I still think it is better than putting all the eggs in the baskets of a United or USAir Group. Perhaps it is a desperation move, but it seems to be the only viable option. Either they "fail" by giving the marbles to United, or they try to make in on their own without United. In my opinion, "fee for departure" was never a viable option. They're a bit late in figuring that out but I think they've made the right choice.

The reason Comair is now owned by Delta is "fee for departure". Comair management said no to that. Delta had two choices: buy Comair or watch it go the way that ACA is now going. They had the money so they bought it. United doesn't have the money and can't buy ACA. That's really the only difference.

If back when, the mangements of all the independent regionals had said no to fee for departure, they would either have been acquired by the mainline or gone independent. Some would not have been able to go independent and fallen by the wayside. Today, that same thing is happening. They are being run out of business by their failing mainline partners. Slowly but surely.

It really isn't ACA, SKYW, AWAC, CHQ, etc., that should be "out of business", it is United and USAirways. That well may happen yet.

We pilots, at the mainline or at the regional, are not going to save the day by working for free. Yes, it could be said that the mainline groups priced themselves out of the market, but that is not the case at any regional. The one thing we seem to "miss" at the regionals is the fact that our "concessions" no matter what we call them, simply cannot generate enough to bring about the recovery of a dieing dinosaur. Therefore, they are unnecessary.

Some of us seem to think that by working for less than a fair wage, we will somehow achieve expansion and growth. That may happen for a short time, at the expense of our fellow pilots at some other airline, but eventually we WILL all get to the point where there is no place to go. What happens then?

If the dinosaur collapses, where will we go? Today CHQ may thrive by taking AWAC's business (example only). SKYW may thrive by taking ACA's business. Mesa may thrive by taking everyone's business .... but for how long? What will any of them do if the bankrupt United should liquidate? What will SKYW do with all those airplanes if UAL fails? Who will pay the "new and improved" fees per departure, when there is no United? Who will pay when USAirways goes bankrupt for the second time and liquidates?

Let us not, any of us, be too quick to gloat at what we gain for a few months from the demise of another. The only thing that does is bring us closer to our own eventual demise.

The problems are not at the regionals. They are at the majors. Until those problems are fixed, concessionary packages at regional air lines will change nothing. Those of us that are "wholly owned" will sink or swim with the parent company. Those of us in the "fee for departure" business will do the same. When the parent has both wholly owned and subcontractors, it will sever the "fee for departure" group before it loses what it owns (except USAG which is not smart enough or too dumb and too broke to do better).

Unless you can do what ACA is attempting, your fate is totally dependent upon someone that has no particular interest in your survival and doesn't know how to guarantee its own survival. Concessions by regional pilots will not change any of that.

So go ahead and "out bid" each other if it makes you happy. You won't be happy for long. Apparently we regional types haven't seen that because it is exactly what we have "rushed" to do. The "happiness" that seems to be generated by the imagined success of the "concessions" (SKYW, MESA) is short lived.
Enjoy it while you can.

 

[TWAER]

Don't be so quick to praise ACA. Friends of mine over there are telling me things are not going so well between Management and Union. Right now ACA would be flying narrow bodies at the lowest rates of any other narrow body operator. I call that lowering the bar, and so does the Union. Also all captains would get year one pay no matter how long they would be there. That, my friend, is pathetic.

I do agree with the above post, except that the lowering of the bar rest mostly with Southwest, Jet BLue and AirTran. The low cost carriers have undercut everyone.

Air Wiskey can have UAL, I just assume not get involved with ANOTHER bankrupt airline.