Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[Pervis]

Today's papers report that the new CEO already had a meeting with NJASAP President - supposedly the first one in years.

The only meeting Hansel had with our union was very short lived. After our legal staff, all armed with signed non disclosure agreements, refused to leave the room at Hansel's demand, he up and walked out. Of course his legal staff was allowed to remain.

 

[X-rated]

I'll take a shot at it. This should be very popular

I have given you two days of opportunity to come up with FACTUAL DATA to prove that $250,000 a year is absurd. You have not.

Therefore by definition it is NOT absurd and a reasonable low point to accept as a reasonable CBA wage.

Your opinion is invalid.

That's some interesting "logic" you have there.

First, I don't think 250K for very senior NJA pilots is absurd at all, but 10-250 would mean the most junior captains would make 250K. If the most junior captain is making 250K flying a Phenom, I'm pretty curious how much a 30 year international Global 7000 captain should make? How about 5th and 15th year F.O.'s? That's probably where 10-250 goes off the rails for me.

I certainly don't have the numbers you seek, but I couldn't help notice Pedro kept repeatedly stating Management is demanding pay concessions. For some reason, he failed to mention the Union's demands. That seems strange considering most (at least here on FI) feel so strongly that all are completely reasonable. Why waste the opportunity to show Liz and her viewers how magnanimous your requests are? Could it be Pedro was concerned that saying the union wants $250K for the most junior captain, plus completely free medical, and 100 percent 401K match up to the max might not play well? Heck, he didn't need to mention the need for shorter duty days and sought reduced airport standby.

You keep asking why you should make less than a Delta pilot. Take another look at Delta's pay scales and ask yourself why Delta Mainline EMB 190 pilots makes 50 percent of 777 pilots at each year of service. It has nothing to do with responsibility or having the same skill set. It is about how much revenue pilots generate for their company. Since airlines are scheduled, they enjoy far greater utilization. Because of the increased utilization, and because they carry so many more passengers, they bring in more revenue than a NetJets pilot can hope to despite Mr. Big Bucks paying a fortune for his flight.

NetJets is already ~3 times the cost of charter. 10-250 represents a 108 percent or 130,000 dollar raise for the 10 year captain. If every pilot gets a similar percentage increase, NetJets might cost 4 times charter, and certainly some number of corporate and private flight departments will become more cost effective than fractional ownership as a result. Fractional was supposed to offer better utilization of expensive assets and thereby reduce the cost of flying private. Today, drastically inflated acquisition costs, deadhead inefficiency, high corporate overhead, demanded higher ROI, and now potentially extreme pilot compensation further threaten an industry in decline. Don't kid yourself; you absolutely can price yourselves out of this market.

 

[FamilyGuy]

That's some interesting "logic" you have there.

First, I don't think 250K for very senior NJA pilots is absurd at all, but 10-250 would mean the most junior captains would make 250K. If the most junior captain is making 250K flying a Phenom, I'm pretty curious how much a 30 year international Global 7000 captain should make? How about 5th and 15th year F.O.'s? That's probably where 10-250 goes off the rails for me.

I certainly don't have the numbers you seek, but I couldn't help notice Pedro kept repeatedly stating Management is demanding pay concessions. For some reason, he failed to mention the Union's demands. That seems strange considering most (at least here on FI) feel so strongly that all are completely reasonable. Why waste the opportunity to show Liz and her viewers how magnanimous your requests are? Could it be Pedro was concerned that saying the union wants $250K for the most junior captain, plus completely free medical, and 100 percent 401K match up to the max might not play well? Heck, he didn't need to mention the need for shorter duty days and sought reduced airport standby.

You keep asking why you should make less than a Delta pilot. Take another look at Delta's pay scales and ask yourself why Delta Mainline EMB 190 pilots makes 50 percent of 777 pilots at each year of service. It has nothing to do with responsibility or having the same skill set. It is about how much revenue pilots generate for their company. Since airlines are scheduled, they enjoy far greater utilization. Because of the increased utilization, and because they carry so many more passengers, they bring in more revenue than a NetJets pilot can hope to despite Mr. Big Bucks paying a fortune for his flight.

NetJets is already ~3 times the cost of charter. 10-250 represents a 108 percent or 130,000 dollar raise for the 10 year captain. If every pilot gets a similar percentage increase, NetJets might cost 4 times charter, and certainly some number of corporate and private flight departments will become more cost effective than fractional ownership as a result. Fractional was supposed to offer better utilization of expensive assets and thereby reduce the cost of flying private. Today, drastically inflated acquisition costs, deadhead inefficiency, high corporate overhead, demanded higher ROI, and now potentially extreme pilot compensation further threaten an industry in decline. Don't kid yourself; you absolutely can price yourselves out of this market.

You make some very good points.

While I support the pilots and want to see them get a better contract, I share your concerns about reaching an agreement that is sustainable in good times and bad.

Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and both sides will come together to a compromise that works for each party.

Seeing AJ and Bill meeting with the union on day 2 is a good start.

 

[gunfyter]

The answer is simple as to why Pedro made no mention of the union pay demands. The union hasn't established any. Anything you see here is the personal opinion of the individual.

 

[fischman]

The answer is simple as to why Pedro made no mention of the union pay demands. The union hasn't established any. Anything you see here is the personal opinion of the individual.

Exactly. That, and we don't want to leave anything on the table. In '05 Santulli was quoted as saying "you could have gotten more." I don't want to repeat history.

 

[acaTerry]

You make some very good points.

While I support the pilots and want to see them get a better contract, I share your concerns about reaching an agreement that is sustainable in good times and bad.

Not going to agree. We've been in good times for YEARS now and still...nothing. You aim high in good times and make the money while its there. When the company makes less, you have a different set of expectations.
DAL settled a TA in less than 1/4 the time we have. And that was their M.O...the money is there, pay up. It is no different here. This turnaround was earned as much by our backs getting overloaded as any other factor, probably more. If the planes don't fly, NJA makes no money. Well, the planes have been moving and NJA is nearly paid off on all debt. IOW, it will be a debt free operation soon. So why should we lower our expectations because of what "might" happen later when we are doing so well?
If the hard times come, we can deal with those when the time comes, not now. As we say where I grew up: "make your hay while the sun shines".

 

[Helmsalee]

Delta mainline does not operate the EMB 190. Sad, but true.

 

[T-1GUY]

Last I checked a new 777 cost about 320 million dollars paid for by Delta. A new phenom 300 cost about 8.7 million paid for by the owners. I am a professionally trained pilot. I will fly either plane. I demand a professional salary for my skills. Simple fact, Netjets can't keep experienced pilots if the wages are not comparable. There is a shortage of experienced pilots that is only going to get worse. Currently, Netjets cannot train new pilots fast enough to keep up with the number of pilots leaving. Hence, major airline pay is coming to Netjets.

 

[G4dude]

Last I checked a new 777 cost about 320 million dollars paid for by Delta. A new phenom 300 cost about 8.7 million paid for by the owners. I am a professionally trained pilot. I will fly either plane. I demand a professional salary for my skills. Simple fact, Netjets can't keep experienced pilots if the wages are not comparable. There is a shortage of experienced pilots that is only going to get worse. Currently, Netjets cannot train new pilots fast enough to keep up with the number of pilots leaving. Hence, major airline pay is coming to Netjets.

Yep. The shortage will give us a big raise, and it's about time.

 

[imacdog]

That's some interesting "logic" you have there.

First, I don't think 250K for very senior NJA pilots is absurd at all, but 10-250 would mean the most junior captains would make 250K. If the most junior captain is making 250K flying a Phenom, I'm pretty curious how much a 30 year international Global 7000 captain should make? How about 5th and 15th year F.O.'s? That's probably where 10-250 goes off the rails for me.

I certainly don't have the numbers you seek, but I couldn't help notice Pedro kept repeatedly stating Management is demanding pay concessions. For some reason, he failed to mention the Union's demands. That seems strange considering most (at least here on FI) feel so strongly that all are completely reasonable. Why waste the opportunity to show Liz and her viewers how magnanimous your requests are? Could it be Pedro was concerned that saying the union wants $250K for the most junior captain, plus completely free medical, and 100 percent 401K match up to the max might not play well? Heck, he didn't need to mention the need for shorter duty days and sought reduced airport standby.

You keep asking why you should make less than a Delta pilot. Take another look at Delta's pay scales and ask yourself why Delta Mainline EMB 190 pilots makes 50 percent of 777 pilots at each year of service. It has nothing to do with responsibility or having the same skill set. It is about how much revenue pilots generate for their company. Since airlines are scheduled, they enjoy far greater utilization. Because of the increased utilization, and because they carry so many more passengers, they bring in more revenue than a NetJets pilot can hope to despite Mr. Big Bucks paying a fortune for his flight.

NetJets is already ~3 times the cost of charter. 10-250 represents a 108 percent or 130,000 dollar raise for the 10 year captain. If every pilot gets a similar percentage increase, NetJets might cost 4 times charter, and certainly some number of corporate and private flight departments will become more cost effective than fractional ownership as a result. Fractional was supposed to offer better utilization of expensive assets and thereby reduce the cost of flying private. Today, drastically inflated acquisition costs, deadhead inefficiency, high corporate overhead, demanded higher ROI, and now potentially extreme pilot compensation further threaten an industry in decline. Don't kid yourself; you absolutely can price yourselves out of this market.

I don't think you understand how pay by longevity works.

 

[FamilyGuy]

Not going to agree. We've been in good times for YEARS now and still...nothing. You aim high in good times and make the money while its there. When the company makes less, you have a different set of expectations.
DAL settled a TA in less than 1/4 the time we have. And that was their M.O...the money is there, pay up. It is no different here. This turnaround was earned as much by our backs getting overloaded as any other factor, probably more. If the planes don't fly, NJA makes no money. Well, the planes have been moving and NJA is nearly paid off on all debt. IOW, it will be a debt free operation soon. So why should we lower our expectations because of what "might" happen later when we are doing so well?
If the hard times come, we can deal with those when the time comes, not now. As we say where I grew up: "make your hay while the sun shines".

I've seen the same philosophy by many athletes. They want to get their payday when their contract is up. The wise ones recognize the fact that it's not just them but the team that makes them successful and they structure their pay to make sure they can surround themselves with a good supporting cast.

 

[Diesel]

I've seen the same philosophy by many athletes. They want to get their payday when their contract is up. The wise ones recognize the fact that it's not just them but the team that makes them successful and they structure their pay to make sure they can surround themselves with a good supporting cast.

But at the end of the day you can't even have a game without the quarterback. (pilots)

 

[T-1GUY]

Either management works a contract with my agent (Union), or I take my skills to another team

 

[gunfyter]

But at the end of the day you can't even have a game without the quarterback. (pilots)

If football you could go with a ground game. But an air carrier. ? Lol.

 

[fischman]

I've seen the same philosophy by many athletes. They want to get their payday when their contract is up. The wise ones recognize the fact that it's not just them but the team that makes them successful and they structure their pay to make sure they can surround themselves with a good supporting cast.

It's the rising tide. A tire costs $75. A gallon of milk is $4. A NetJets pilot is $250,000. It costs what it costs.

 

[msculley6905]

But at the end of the day you can't even have a game without the quarterback. (pilots)

And there are no players without an owner.

 

[gunfyter]

One of the pilots was waiting for an airline when a person who identified himself as someone from United hiring/training approached him and asked: Are you with Netjets?

"United is going to clean you guys out"

They will be hiring all they can get, he said.


I wish I had access to the information as to how many record requests are being received by CMH right now... and if that has anything to do with the company plan to finish the contract by September?

Diesel, you'd look good wearing a United cap

 

[Willy21]

And there are no players without an owner.

No water boy without the players. You made that one easy msculley. ?

 

[imacdog]

And there are no players without an owner.

But there is still a league. We can take our talent to the other team if this team doesn't want to pay for our skill.

 

[gutshotdraw]

But there is still a league. We can take our talent to the other team if this team doesn't want to pay for our skill.

Boom!


Another bud just pulled the plug for the airlines.

They could have had us relatively cheap 18 months ago. Hansell thought he knew better.

So there ya go.

 

[AV8OR]

I guess it's a larger question but seems pertinent to the discussion:

How did we get to a place where the only cost associated with doing business that should remain fixed, go down and is apparently not subject to the same supply and demand forces is labor? I'm aware that labor can be greedy in negotiations as well as management, but when the price of gas doubles, nobody likes it but they pay it. If I was at a McDonalds in an area where the min wage was $15/hr and I had to pay another dollar for my happy meal, Id pay it! When Gulfstream raises their prices... People still buy them! I just saw that the Superintendent of Education in Atlanta makes $450k a year. If you want Payton Manning to play for your team because your customers want that caliber of talent... You PAY them.

For most of my flying career except for maybe one short time in the late 90's "Just be glad you've got a job" was the norm. In 93 when there was a glut of pilots, the regionals in cahoots with FlightSafety were charging pilots 10k for the high privilege of getting a check out in the right seat of a Brazillia and making 15k a year.

And during those times nobody gave two ********************s how that impacted the financials or the safety of aviators or aviation... And now... After 25 years of basically relatively stagnant wages in aviation there's an actual demand for qualified pilots and some folks are worried how billion dollar corporations are gonna survive? People are worried that... God forbid... A customer might have to pay a fraction more for premium service because unfortunately the pool of experience has started to dry? Cry me an F'n river!

Next time Gulfstream raises their prices or Coca Cola theirs or Exon theirs... Be sure and complain to them how difficult it is for you to afford THEIR product and see how far that gets Ya. Well guess what? Over the years there's a bunch of us who have been quietly building OUR business. Making the sacrifices WE needed to make to stay in the flying business. And OUR persistence and dedication has come to fruition. Hope Yall enjoyed the fire sale in the cockpit over the last 15-20 years. Prices just went up.

 

[gutshotdraw]

I guess it's a larger question but seems pertinent to the discussion:

How did we get to a place where the only cost associated with doing business that should remain fixed, go down and is apparently not subject to the same supply and demand forces is labor? I'm aware that labor can be greedy in negotiations as well as management, but when the price of gas doubles, nobody likes it but they pay it. If I was at a McDonalds in an area where the min wage was $15/hr and I had to pay another dollar for my happy meal, Id pay it! When Gulfstream raises their prices... People still buy them! I just saw that the Superintendent of Education in Atlanta makes $450k a year. If you want Payton Manning to play for your team because your customers want that caliber of talent... You PAY them.

For most of my flying career except for maybe one short time in the late 90's "Just be glad you've got a job" was the norm. In 93 when there was a glut of pilots, the regionals in cahoots with FlightSafety were charging pilots 10k for the high privilege of getting a check out in the right seat of a Brazillia and making 15k a year.

And during those times nobody gave two ********************s how that impacted the financials or the safety of aviators or aviation... And now... After 25 years of basically relatively stagnant wages in aviation there's an actual demand for qualified pilots and some folks are worried how billion dollar corporations are gonna survive? People are worried that... God forbid... A customer might have to pay a fraction more for premium service because unfortunately the pool of experience has started to dry? Cry me an F'n river!

Next time Gulfstream raises their prices or Coca Cola theirs or Exon theirs... Be sure and complain to them how difficult it is for you to afford THEIR product and see how far that gets Ya. Well guess what? Over the years there's a bunch of us who have been quietly building OUR business. Making the sacrifices WE needed to make to stay in the flying business. And OUR persistence and dedication has come to fruition. Hope Yall enjoyed the fire sale in the cockpit over the last 15-20 years. Prices just went up.

You are wise sir. This should be required reading for some of my "less committed" colleagues.

By the way, apropos of your avatar, I love the smell of jet fuel in the morning....it smells like....money.

 

[T-1GUY]

"After 25 years of basically relatively stagnant wages in aviation there's an actual demand for qualified pilots and some folks are worried how billion dollar corporations are gonna survive? People are worried that... God forbid... A customer might have to pay a fraction more for premium service because unfortunately the pool of experience has started to dry? Cry me an F'n river! "

Amen brother!!!

 

[fischman]

Leverage

 

[CRAWDADDY]

"United is going to clean you guys out"

They will be hiring all they can get.

how many record requests are being received by CMH right now.?.. and does that have anything to do with the company plan to finish the contract by September?

It just may be too late for the company.

 

[G4dude]

Boom!


Another bud just pulled the plug for the airlines.

They could have had us relatively cheap 18 months ago. Hansell thought he knew better.

So there ya go.

Who is the lucky pilot? PM me, kind sir.

 

[acaTerry]

Who is the lucky pilot? PM me, kind sir.

Engage yourself my friend! The message boards have an almost weekly post saying goodbye from our escapees. Its not just used for b!tching you know.

 

[G4dude]

Engage yourself my friend! The message boards have an almost weekly post saying goodbye from our escapees. Its not just used for b!tching you know.

I think you right. Me on the union board, can you imagine that?

 

[fischman]

I think you right. Me on the union board, can you imagine that?

You can at least read and get informed.

 

[Diesel]

I think you right. Me on the union board, can you imagine that?

Just another excuse as to why you're sitting on a fence.

At what point will you run out of them and join your brothers and sisters? Now is when we need the leverage the most!!!!!!!!!!!!