Buffett Bites Back at NetJets Pilot Complaints

[T-1GUY]

Just to save five pages here is the summary:

You don't need a college degree to fly.

You won't get an interview at several majors without one.

There you go...

 

[NJAowner]

My passengers who experiences a rapid decompression at 39,000 were glad to be alive when I safely got them on the ground. Also, when the thrust reverser deployed at 24,000 and 300 knots, I think I got a few "atta boy"

Fisch -- I will give you 2 attaboys for those. Great job. (But I am not sure if I want to fly with you for your amazing abilities or not fly with you because of the frequency you need to use your amazing abilities -- NOTE TO ALL -- read sarcasm in those comments).

Make the owners aware of these situations without "killing to golden goose". Honestly, that is why the owners want you in front. Like that old presidential election commercial -- "Who do you want to answer the hotline in the White House if it rings at 3 a.m". -- Who do you want flying your plane when sh!t happens??? - This is part of making the owners knowledgable about what you guys do and why we should demand you. Not just picketing saying "I don't like that I have to pay more for healthcare". Owners will respond (and pressure management) for the former -- and generally don't give a crap about the latter.

 

[flex*wife]

No, but there will be enough sell-off lift available to cover the trips. EJM, TMC and other 3rd parties, and don't forget Options/Flex fly charter through KR's broker company. And you can't count on the Options/Flex pilots spiking the trips - they won't even know these are NJ owners they're flying. It'll just say Mr & Mrs Smith or XYZ Corp on the manifest. NJ's not the operator in the case of a sell-off, they just act as a charter broker, to the crew never need know where it came from. And you can be sure the pax will be briefed not to reveal it, either, if they don't want a departure time break.

So in the event of a strike, a Frax pilot union has even less leverage than an airline union. At least with an airline, lost trips = 100% lost revenue. With a Frax, monthly management fees are still coming in, the company just loses the hourly trip charges. That'll still be an expensive proposition for NJ, but if they're determined to break a strike and Hansell has WB convinced that it's a cost saver long-term, they'll probably be willing to burn cash for a while. As already stated, could get real ugly, real fast.

Not meaning to divert this thread (it is quite an education and I commend all you NJA guys sticking to your guns) but in regard to the above, now with Flight Options in renegotiations, TMC working on a TA and Flex not far behind what provisions have y'all made to discuss contract "givens" that you should adhere to industry wide?

Kind of like a scab list but for practices.

For instance, NJASAP requires they not use hotels etc if there are striking workers and other type "sympathy" strike situations.

Why couldn't everyone just require in their new contracts that in the event of strikes, sell offs cannot be traded (even through intermediaries) to other union shops without severe penalties. Then you will get more bang for the buck similar to the legacy carriers...

Is there a common meeting grounds for the councils? If not there should be...

That would be a huge advantage of a singular fractional Union entity like the 1108 but i'm not trying to start trouble, just an observation. Still, you wouldn't need to all be 1108 just to agree on some basic agendas that benefit everyone.

 

[pilotyip]

Just to save five pages here is the summary:

You don't need a college degree to fly.

You won't get an interview at several majors without one.

There you go...

Isn't that exactly what I said?

"Very true, but it has nothing to do with flying an airplane. Anything below the top 6 or 7 airlines, the lack of a degree is not a show stopper".

 

[realityman]

Bluenose,

There absolutely will NOT be enough supplemental lift available to cover even 3/4 of our flights if we strike.

I suppose a lot depends on how many of our own pilots are willing to cross the line and scab. But I suspect it won't be a high percentage.

Only about 25% of EJM's aircraft are actually available for charter. And as for all the other operators out there, they have their own clients too. What, you think they're all going to tell their own clients sorry but you won't be able to charter with us for an unspecified period of time while we cover Netjets' flights? Oh, and EJM has their own clients too. Will they just drop their regulars to cover Netjets' flying?

Heck, Netjets is having trouble covering all the selloffs now. I've already been in a couple situations this year where our plane broke and they couldn't find ANYBODY to cover the trips. Very angry clients!

And you, and others here, keep missing the bigger point. Our clients are NOT paying to be put on chartered planes for every flight. If charter was fine, they'd book those trips themselves and save on paying the Netjets premium to be in the program. Crud, if I had a quarter for every time an angry client, just this year, told me they just want what they'd paid for I could buy an extra grocery item or two.

Maybe none of our clients are sympathetic to our union. Doesn't change the fact that Netjets costs quite a bit more than our competitors and they expect to get what they paid for. How long do you think they'll accept being farmed out at a premium price before quitting the program? I'm sure JH will assure our clients things will be fine in no time. How many will start getting antsy after a couple weeks? A month? 6 weeks? 2 months?

My crystal ball says a strike won't last long. There will be HUGE pressure from angry clients. Letters, phone calls, returned shares. Maybe some lawsuits? It will become very costly very quickly for WB. These aren't lower level airline passengers. These are the powerful movers and shakers of our world. Many (most) have spent MILLIONS to be in our program (not to mention big monthly management fees). How many consecutive flights on TM's old 800's (many of which are our old planes we put out to pasture) will they accept while waiting for the strike to end?

I sincerely mean it with all my heart that I hope it doesn't come to a strike. That just won't be good for anyone. It's the nuclear option. But I gotta tell you, if we stand firm with steely resolve in our hearts, I like our odds!

 

[pilotyip]

But I gotta tell you, if we stand firm with steely resolve in our hearts, I like our odds!

Is that from PATCO 1981?

 

[realityman]

Is that from PATCO 1981?

We aren't air traffic controllers.

I could ask you how you think all the legacy carriers got the contracts they currently enjoy. Hint: It wasn't from caving in and saying, "This is too risky.".

It's ALWAYS a gamble. I never said there is a guarantee we'll come out on top. I said I like our odds.

 

[pilotyip]

We aren't air traffic controllers.

I could ask you how you think all the legacy carriers got the contracts they currently enjoy. Hint: It wasn't from caving in and saying, "This is too risky.".

It's ALWAYS a gamble. I never said there is a guarantee we'll come out on top. I said I like our odds.

I am just saying there may be ice bergs out there, you guys are the Captain of the Titanic, maybe you will hit one, maybe you won't. But someone should address the downside. As long as you are aware of the downside it is something that has to be considered.

BTW: 2000 Industry leading contract, $350/yr in 5 years, follow by BK and concessions three year later, massive furloughs, downgrades. And yes you are not ATC, but I see the same confidence here that they displayed in 1981.

 

[realityman]

Okay, I think I've had my fill of FI for another month or so. These conversations always seem to spiral down into silliness. Some folks who failed were preceded by great confidence? Really? Were any contracts that were great preceded by confidence? Yes? Then I'm not really seeing the connection you're trying to make. Were any truly great contracts achieved by a group fighting with mediocre confidence?

As for all that blather about bankruptcy and such, it has no relevance. All those bankruptcies occurred due to the economy, not the contracts. At least those folks entered bankruptcy with great contracts. As a result, even their post-bankruptcy contracts were better than what we currently make at NJA. And if you're company is failing, at least with a great contract you have a chance to save more before the BK than with a mediocre contract.

And I don't know one single solitary person at NJA that isn't aware of the potential MAJOR downside of a strike. We ALL know what the potential consequences are. But if we want any chance at all of succeeding we need to reach upward for the brass ring, not withhold effort out of fear of the downside. If we're going all in on this one, we need to push ahead with as little fear and as much confidence as we can muster.

 

[pilotyip]

Okay, I think I've had my fill of FI for another month or so.

Don't go, staying would be a sign of your confidence in everything you believe in. Your posts keep the conversations going, even if you think it is silly

 

[FamilyGuy]

As for all that blather about bankruptcy and such, it has no relevance. All those bankruptcies occurred due to the economy, not the contracts.

All that blather about bankruptcy is relevant. History is littered with the carcasses of companies that were forced into bankruptcy, some of which were due to too expensive contracts. I'm not saying that is the number 1 concern in this situation, but both sides should be focused on reaching a middle ground that is sustainable in the long term. The economy is relevant and will go through its up and down cycles. The contracts should anticipate those cycles and be sustainable through the peaks and troughs of the economy.

The company's position of concessions in the midst of record profits is laughable, as is the demands of some on this board to match mainline airline pay. The best agreements are where both sides compromise and find a middle ground that neither side is entirely happy with but it works for each.

If we're going all in on this one, we need to push ahead with as little fear and as much confidence as we can muster.

There's nothing wrong with fear. It makes you more aware of the situation and the dangers inherent to your position. Don't ignore the downside risks....acknowledge them and plan accordingly. Plan for the worst and hope for the best.

 

[fischman]

My passengers who experiences a rapid decompression at 39,000 were glad to be alive when I safely got them on the ground. Also, when the thrust reverser deployed at 24,000 and 300 knots, I think I got a few "atta boy"

Fisch -- I will give you 2 attaboys for those. Great job. (But I am not sure if I want to fly with you for your amazing abilities or not fly with you because of the frequency you need to use your amazing abilities -- NOTE TO ALL -- read sarcasm in those comments).

Make the owners aware of these situations without "killing to golden goose". Honestly, that is why the owners want you in front. Like that old presidential election commercial -- "Who do you want to answer the hotline in the White House if it rings at 3 a.m". -- Who do you want flying your plane when sh!t happens??? - This is part of making the owners knowledgable about what you guys do and why we should demand you. Not just picketing saying "I don't like that I have to pay more for healthcare". Owners will respond (and pressure management) for the former -- and generally don't give a crap about the latter.

I think 2 incidents in the +10 years and +5000 hours I've been with the company are pretty good odds. You'd be hard pressed to find a pilot with as much time as me with fewer inflight "problems". You want to fly with me. I'm awesome.

I agree about the picket messages and will pass along the info.

 

[fischman]

The company's position of concessions in the midst of record profits is laughable, as is the demands of some on this board to match mainline airline pay. The best agreements are where both sides compromise and find a middle ground that neither side is entirely happy with but it works for each.

Ok. Since Mr. Scully doesn't want to answer my question, I'll ask you. Why am I worth less than a Delta pilot?

 

[NJAowner]

OK Fisch -- I will fly with you.

Realityman -- does your analysis change if the EMT says to owners that during the strike (which they would say will result in lower fees with o change in service) you will pay 1/2 for all your flights. Then how long do you think most owners will be pissed at the EMT - BH can do this for a year or more and it would just be a rounding error in results.

 

[gunfyter]

The company's position of concessions in the midst of record profits is laughable, as is the demands of some on this board to match mainline airline pay. The best agreements are where both sides compromise and find a middle ground that neither side is entirely happy with but it works for each.

You didn't think we could get the pay we have now last time...