Brazil Mid-Air Survivor

[pilot01]

After a near midair over Turkey in 2002 with some air carrier of unknown parts I and most of the guys in my ANG squadron always offset R of course some distance, .5 or 2 miles depends on your flavor, Is it Legal? I could give a rats a**, I am a parttimer trying to get my 20 ,and get back to my life as a FO . High Altitude ATC in Turkey for you guys that have been through those parts sounds like three sisters that work one shift after the other didn't say a thing to us. I now offset all jetways a little when i fly international, and spend most my time (when not changing CD's )watching the tcas and and listing to the Co D*ck up the position report. Just my 2 cents as a AC in a KC

 

[Sluggo_63]

You apparently didn't read the article in the above post from NYRANGER huh? Well here it is again for you if you missed it.....


I figured the color coding would help you out a little bit.

Now with the DFDR and the CVR of the legacy in perfect condition, why oh why is it taking so long to find out if the transponder and TCAS were on or off??? things that make you go hhhhhmmmmm.......you don't think they'd be trying to do whatever they could to blame the foreign pilots now would they? nnnnnaaaaaa never.

I think that your friendship with the pilots of the legacy is biasing your responses to this. I appreciate that you think he is a great pilot (which I'm sure he is) but to say that it's impossible that he made a mistake is a little short-sighted.

I read the newest article in OGlobo (granted, it's a Brazilian newspaper, and my Portuguese isn't really what it should be), but they seemed convinced that the Legacy had their transponder off, and they were told to descend to 360 after passing Brasilia (which they didn't). As to why the CVR/DFDR data is taking so long... it's going to Canada for analysis. I hope everything works out for the pilots, but I think it's looking a bit grim.

 

[canyonblue]

Found on another board...............................

The article seems more accurate in terminology. It begins by focussing on the lack of timely communication between Brasilia ATC (Cindacta 1) and Manaus (Cindacta 4) and between these centres and the aircraft themselves, based on radar and comms recordings in the respective centres.

It then moves to actions on the part of the Legacy crew whose CVR and FDR began being analysed on Friday. The Legacy crew were interviewed in Rio on Monday by the aeronautical authorities who, by that time, had heard the CVR and conducted at least a superficial analysis of the FDR. Details not revealed but the article states that at some point after passing Brasilia the Legacy’s transponder was switched off, thus rendering the secondary radar returns that rely on the transponder and which would have more precisely established altitude, virtually useless (primary radar being able to track course accurately but altitude only to ±1,500’). Then, that the Legacy began a series of brusque manoevers up and down, left and right, descending at one point to FL 320 before resuming FL 370, those manoeuvers further complicating interpretation of radar signals.

Around that time Brasilia, unable to make radio contact with the Legacy, transferred control to Manaus, who then failed to take into account their own 738 and did not avail themselves of the Cachimbo mountain range radar assembly to more accurately track the Legacy.

At one point the article states that the accident committee believe the Legacy crew did see the 738 and attempted evasive action, too late. “Proof” offered of this being the transponder’s being switched back on shortly after the collision and, simultaneously, an emergency landing at Cachimbo AF base being requested.

The article contains a list of errors on the part of ATC and the Legacy, free translation:

ATC
- The Legacy was not alerted when it maintained FL 370 after passing Brasilia.
- ATC should have tried to alert the Legacy via any other aircraft.
- Manaus ATC alerted neithter of the aircraft of the possibility of collision

Legacy
- Did not follow the flight plan filed at Sao Jose dos Campos which included descent to FL 360 on passing Brasilia.
- Switched off transponder and performed dangerous maneouvers blinding the radar and making Cindacta 1 (Brasilia) and 4 (Manaus) work more difficult.
- Ignored repeated alerts from Brasilia ATC whilst varying altitude by up to 3,000 feet.


RIO DE JANEIRO, Brazil (AP) -- Two American executive jet pilots were ordered by a judge to stay in Brazil while authorities investigate whether they caused a midair collision with an airliner that crashed into the Amazon, killing all 155 people aboard.

A Brazilian newspaper reported that the pilots' Legacy jet, which was carrying seven Americans, disobeyed an order by the control tower to descend to a lower altitude just before coming into contact with Gol airlines Flight 1907.

 

[wooferdog]

I think that your friendship with the pilots of the legacy is biasing your responses to this. I appreciate that you think he is a great pilot (which I'm sure he is) but to say that it's impossible that he made a mistake is a little short-sighted.

I read the newest article in OGlobo (granted, it's a Brazilian newspaper, and my Portuguese isn't really what it should be), but they seemed convinced that the Legacy had their transponder off, and they were told to descend to 360 after passing Brasilia (which they didn't). As to why the CVR/DFDR data is taking so long... it's going to Canada for analysis. I hope everything works out for the pilots, but I think it's looking a bit grim.

______
Yeah, a bit of bias, AND he wants his $80 back. tool.

 

[i'mbatman]

Any one here possibly think that either of the pilots had their foot on the footrests and it brushed the RMU? I've seen it before.......i hope this isn't the case though.

 

[PurpleInMEM]

155 Dead Brazilians...and 2 live foreign pilots....I would NOT want to be the crew of the Legacy right now. I hope they are gearing up with the best lawyers that money can buy or they may be in Brazil for a long long time.

Hopefully they cannot be blamed for the accident in any way, shape, or form.

There's a lesson in here...

Never cooperate with any investigation....and if an accident happens on foreign soil, find any way possible to get out...even if they do take your passport.

The justice system in Brazil is probably as fair as a lynch mob enforcing Jim Crow laws.

Does anyone know if the US will extradite to Brazil? Brazil won't extradite its own nationals to the US to face charges, I didn't know if our government would.

 

[Sonny Crockett]

"IF" I were those guys...I would be finding me a way out of there either down to Bolivia or go North, either way I would get the heck out of Brazil!

 

[vetteracer]

Passports of the two American pilots, Joe Lepore and Jan Paladino were confiscated on Tuesday and will remain with Brazilian Federal Police during the investigation, said Judge Tiago de Abril in Mato Grosso state, where the plane crashed.


This is not good, in any event, I feel for those two guys. Things happen, and 999 times out of 1000 the small mistake, if there was one, would un-effect the flight. In this case, right place at the wrong time.

If it were me, I would have been heading to the American Embassy ASAP!

 

[FN FAL]

Unlike the United States, pilots can be criminally prosecuted for accidents.

You don't know what you are talking about. Name one federal code or state statute that absolves pilots from criminal negligence, negligent homicide or reckless homicide crimes.

You can't.

 

[Kharma Police]

You don't know what you are talking about. Name one federal code or state statute that absolves pilots from criminal negligence, negligent homicide or reckless homicide crimes.

You can't.

Oh boy, you again, you know that the Comair FO is out of the hospital now. I'm still waiting to hear about the impending arrest warrant for murder that you suggested he receive. I guess esquire you don't understand the word "precedent".

 

[JP4user]

I agree with the above about getting the hell out of there or to a US embassy. I know someone that knows one of those guys and he had heard through a family member they were being "detained" under constant watch by the military police. I don't think they could of left if they tried.

Even if the Embraer had a mechanical defect with the tcas or adc, they are going to bury those pilots and protect their national product. It is just the way it goes down there. These two will be scapegoats. God help them.

 

[Networ-King]

______
Yeah, a bit of bias, AND he wants his $80 back. tool.

No you retard.... what I am trying to do is not jump to conclusions and not believe what the press is putting out there. Specially brazillian press.... A close buddy has been in touch with one of the pilots and the stories in print are a little different, just like they are in the states with their knee jerk reporting. I hope the best for them and would not want to be in their shoes, but there still is lots of hope.

As for the 80 bucks.... sorry you can't take a joke.... so why don't have a nice cup of STFU and enjoy logging your single engine cessna pic time.... glad you got the B in that model there toolio..... could have been confusing.

 

[FN FAL]

Oh boy, you again, you know that the Comair FO is out of the hospital now. I'm still waiting to hear about the impending arrest warrant for murder that you suggested he receive. I guess esquire you don't understand the word "precedent".

Whatever dude, I didn't mention Comair; I simply asked you to cite your ridiculous and unsupportable statement. Evidently, you were sleeping through the whole State of Florida v. Two Drunk Airline Pilots trial.

As far as the word "precedent" goes, that would mean that there is a citation from previous court cases supporting your argument, which for some reason you are unable to produce.

While I got you here, the State of Kentucky has pending legislation, House Bill 613, which:

HB 613 creates a new section of KRS Chapter 507 to establish the crime of negligent homicide when, with ordinary negligence, a person causes the death of another person under twelve years of age.

It don't say nothing about, "except airplane pilots".

After the passage of that law, I would vehemently suggest you volunteer to give KY young eagle rides to 11.75 year olds after neglecting to secure the gas caps and see what happens, Mr. Precedent.

As far as whether prosecutors chose to charge a case, that's up to the individual prosecutor. It's called "prosecutorial discretion", not precedent. If a prosecutor waits a year, he waits a year. Some prosecutors refuse to charge based on "the interests of justice". Which simply means that a prosecutor has decided that it would not be in the interest of the criminal justice system to have such a case charged. Just because someone isn't charged, it doesn't mean that crime hasn't been committed.

 

[FN FAL]

I'm still waiting to hear about the impending arrest warrant for murder that you suggested he receive.

I don't know why you are bringing this up, but I never used the word murder in describing any homicide; nor did I suggest anybody "must" get anything.

 

[FN FAL]

Does anyone know if the US will extradite to Brazil? Brazil won't extradite its own nationals to the US to face charges, I didn't know if our government would.

What does extradition have anything to do with this? Those two pilots are IN Brazil...if in fact the US doesn't honor extradition requests from Brazil, that only means that it is absolutely certain them boys won't be coming home anytime soon.

 

[Kharma Police]

I don't know why you are bringing this up, but I never used the word murder in describing any homicide; nor did I suggest anybody "must" get anything.

I guess you don't remember getting band for your statements? First you insinuated that the individual should receive police protection for possible reprisals from the accident victims families. Then you strongly (over and over) suggested that he might be in criminal trouble and that he might be put on trial for "homicide". As for pilots being tried for homicide in the United States, why you enlighten me with an example of a case?

 

[FN FAL]

I guess you don't remember getting band for your statements? First you insinuated that the individual should receive police protection for possible reprisals from the accident victims families. Then you strongly (over and over) suggested that he might be in criminal trouble and that he might be put on trial for "homicide". As for pilots being tried for homicide in the United States, why you enlighten me with an example of a case?

First: It's banned, not band...the only instruments I know how to play, are those which measure electronic signals and those which measure various air molecule data.

Second: Witness protection, it is a program. In Milwaukee a wedding dress maker has received death threats for closing shop and filing bankruptcy. What crazy people do in the case of other things is up to them...but the police does have a responsibility to protect witnesses from those who may choose to engage in retribution.

Three: I can cite all 50 US state's statutes regarding negligent homicide, reckless homicide, but I don't have to...they exist and you still can not provide one shred of evidence that a pilot may commit a crime in any state and expect to receive immunity from prosecution.

Show us the precedent...precedent means it is written down somewhere, certainly you can find this precedent.

 

[FN FAL]

Does anyone know if the US will extradite to Brazil? Brazil won't extradite its own nationals to the US to face charges, I didn't know if our government would.

The US DOES have a bilateral treaty of extradition with Brazil for drug trafficking. United States Treaty 2093, signed January 13, 1961 and entered into force on December 17, 1964.

http://brasilia.usembassy.gov/index.php?action=materia&id=521&submenu=3&itemmenu=29

Brazil and the United States are parties to a bilateral extradition treaty signed in 1961. Brazil cooperates with the United States and other countries in the extradition of non-Brazilian nationals accused of narcotics-related crimes. According to the Brazilian constitution, however, no Brazilian shall be extradited, except naturalized Brazilians in the case of a common crime committed before naturalization, or in the case where there is sufficient evidence of participation in the illicit traffic of narcotics and related drugs, under the terms of the law. There were no extraditions to the U.S. of persons accused of counternarcotics activities in 2000. However, there is one extradition request pending in the Brazilian Supreme Court concerning a DEA fugitive who was arrested in 2000.

 

[Kharma Police]

First: It's banned, not band...the only instruments I know how to play, are those which measure electronic signals and those which measure various air molecule data.

Second: Witness protection, it is a program. In Milwaukee a wedding dress maker has received death threats for closing shop and filing bankruptcy. What crazy people do in the case of other things is up to them...but the police does have a responsibility to protect witnesses from those who may choose to engage in retribution.

Three: I can cite all 50 US state's statutes regarding negligent homicide, reckless homicide, but I don't have to...they exist and you still can not provide one shred of evidence that a pilot may commit a crime in any state and expect to receive immunity from prosecution.

Show us the precedent...precedent means it is written down somewhere, certainly you can find this precedent.

Thanks for the example of the wedding dress maker, and for proofing my post! I guess you don't have any examples of any pilots being tried for homicide in relation to an aircraft accident? Oh well, have a nice day watching Law and Order!!

p.s. Its "police do have a responsibility to protect witnesses from those who may choose to engage in retribution."

 

[FN FAL]

I guess you don't have any examples of any pilots being tried for homicide in relation to an aircraft accident?

I can't speak for prosecutors as to why they choose to utilize their discretion in aircraft related criminal negligence cases, no more than you can cite your reference to precedent.

 

[say again]

I know the two pilots personally and hope for their safe return home soon!! It's a tough posistion, and I'm not going to speculate until the final truth comes out. God Bless all aboard the 737 as well as their families. A tragedy for all involved.

 

[HS125]

Thanks for the example of the wedding dress maker, and for proofing my post! I guess you don't have any examples of any pilots being tried for homicide in relation to an aircraft accident? Oh well, have a nice day watching Law and Order!! ."

July 08 2006 at 05:00PM
By Rachel d'Oro
Anchorage, Alaska - The pilot in a plane crash that led to a the drowning death of a teen from South Africa was charged with manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.
Kurt Stenehjem of Anchorage was arrested on Thursday in connection with the felony charges stemming from the July 7, 2005, death of 17-year-old Mark Schroeder of Durban, South Africa.
Stenehjem, 55, and Schroeder were among five people on board the floatplane that crashed in calm weather into Johnstone Lake on the Kenai Peninsula. A floatplane is a plane equipped with pontoons so it can land on water.
Not wearing a lifejacket
Schroeder, who was not wearing a lifejacket, slipped into the glacier-fed lake while the others made it to icebergs with minor injuries.
Schroeder's mother, Lesley Schroeder McLean, said she saw "something cosmic" in the timing of the arrest - a day before the year anniversary of the crash.
Stenehjem is a longtime associate of the family. McLean's husband, Chris, is a former Alaska bush pilot and registered owner of the Maule M7-235 involved in the crash.
"From my heart, I just miss my son. I would rather have him back than have the pilot in jail," Lesley McLean said Friday from Durban. "But we do feel vindicated that justice has been served, although it's not a happy day for me."
State prosecutors could not be reached on Friday, but Alaska State Troopers and Federal Aviation Administration officials could not recall another an Alaska pilot involved in a fatal crash being criminally charged.
'Justice has been served'
Nationally, such prosecutions are uncommon, but not unheard of, said Phil Kolczynski, a Santa Ana, California-based aviation law attorney and former FAA trial attorney. Convictions are even more unusual, he said, typically involving alcohol or drugs - factors not present in the Stenehjem case. Far more common are civil lawsuits claiming negligence.
"It depends on the weight of the evidence," Kolczynski said. "If it weighs a ton, a prosecutor is doing exactly what they should be doing. On the other hand, some cases are politicised."
In its own investigation, the FAA found enough to issue a rare emergency revocation of Stenehjem's commercial pilot license, saying his lack of care and judgment justified immediate action. Among factors noted, the plane was equipped with only four seats even though there were five people on board, it was overloaded and had not undergone an annual inspection. Schroeder had sat in the back where gear was stored.Stenehjem turned himself in to Anchorage authorities Thursday and was released less than two hours later after posting $50 000 bail. Stenehjem said Friday he has not been arraigned. -
Sapa-AP [from]
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newsl...2R131&set_id=1

You're welcome FN FAL :laugh:

 

[miles otoole]

Unlike the United States, pilots can be criminally prosecuted for accidents.

What law says pilots can't be prosecuted for negligence? Didn't know pilots in the U.S. had legal immunity.

 

[bombinha]

Weasil are u a pilot?
If you were you would know about 2 important things.
1-> most of the airtraffic rules are not made by FAA and by ICAO for the entire WORLD and this is for all countries that accept ICAO that means 99% exmptions would be North Korea, Uganda to name a few.
2-> Brasil not Brazil is written with S and not Z and,
3-> Brasil has the second largest fleet of aircraft in the world including both airliners and private planes.
So next time measure your words.
Sharkey and all others were very lucky for those pilots tuning off the transponder trying to push a filght all the way from sao Jose dos Campos to Manaus in a Legacy non-stop to refuel and with low (if any) experience in international flights. Now they gonna face a process for negligence and USA and Brasil have no agreement for extradition that means if condemmned will face brasilian prisons and that is far worst than death penalty.

 

[bombinha]

Networking... how many languages do u speak?
How do u say don't thrust brasilian press if you don't speak the language and only in USA the president has a bottom to shut down all press from TV and only in USA you have a 5min delay on life shows after the incident with Mrs. Jackson that for me she dind't show anything as she was wearing a big piercing that cover her nip...

 

[bombinha]

Sluggo it's taking so long because as per the american consulate and the pilots lawyer that should be taking to a neutral place. Only the 737 boxes will be taking to seatle due the bad conditions they are and afraid not all can be recovered. So Canada is considered neutral as not american neither brasilian and has equal relationship with both.
The biggest problem of this accident is the diplomatic side of it. As some people here that don't even know Brasil is bigger than US like to speculate and always think everione is wrong but americans.
We all humans and we all subject to mistakes.
For instance our Mr president that tought Iraq would be a walking on park. And still making the mistake to not get us out of there.
Who has the power to prosecute him for negligence increasing of terror threat and stratosferic crime rates plus inflation?

 

[Kharma Police]

July 08 2006 at 05:00PM
By Rachel d'Oro
Anchorage, Alaska - The pilot in a plane crash that led to a the drowning death of a teen from South Africa was charged with manslaughter and criminally negligent homicide.
Kurt Stenehjem of Anchorage was arrested on Thursday in connection with the felony charges stemming from the July 7, 2005, death of 17-year-old Mark Schroeder of Durban, South Africa.
Stenehjem, 55, and Schroeder were among five people on board the floatplane that crashed in calm weather into Johnstone Lake on the Kenai Peninsula. A floatplane is a plane equipped with pontoons so it can land on water.
Not wearing a lifejacket
Schroeder, who was not wearing a lifejacket, slipped into the glacier-fed lake while the others made it to icebergs with minor injuries.
Schroeder's mother, Lesley Schroeder McLean, said she saw "something cosmic" in the timing of the arrest - a day before the year anniversary of the crash.
Stenehjem is a longtime associate of the family. McLean's husband, Chris, is a former Alaska bush pilot and registered owner of the Maule M7-235 involved in the crash.
"From my heart, I just miss my son. I would rather have him back than have the pilot in jail," Lesley McLean said Friday from Durban. "But we do feel vindicated that justice has been served, although it's not a happy day for me."
State prosecutors could not be reached on Friday, but Alaska State Troopers and Federal Aviation Administration officials could not recall another an Alaska pilot involved in a fatal crash being criminally charged.
'Justice has been served'
Nationally, such prosecutions are uncommon, but not unheard of, said Phil Kolczynski, a Santa Ana, California-based aviation law attorney and former FAA trial attorney. Convictions are even more unusual, he said, typically involving alcohol or drugs - factors not present in the Stenehjem case. Far more common are civil lawsuits claiming negligence.
"It depends on the weight of the evidence," Kolczynski said. "If it weighs a ton, a prosecutor is doing exactly what they should be doing. On the other hand, some cases are politicised."
In its own investigation, the FAA found enough to issue a rare emergency revocation of Stenehjem's commercial pilot license, saying his lack of care and judgment justified immediate action. Among factors noted, the plane was equipped with only four seats even though there were five people on board, it was overloaded and had not undergone an annual inspection. Schroeder had sat in the back where gear was stored.Stenehjem turned himself in to Anchorage authorities Thursday and was released less than two hours later after posting $50 000 bail. Stenehjem said Friday he has not been arraigned. -
Sapa-AP [from]
http://www.iol.co.za/index.php?newsl...2R131&set_id=1

You're welcome FN FAL :laugh:

Well there you go, I stand corrected, a new precedent. I guess the pilots from the SWA accident in MDW better call their lawyer (again), and once the Comair FO recovers, he should be prepared to stand trial.

 

[ackattacker]

Wow... this thread has gone downhill fast.

bombinha - you're posts are rambling, nonsensical, and just plain wrong.

First off, Brazil is spelled Brazil in English. Look it up. It is only spelled "Brasil" in Portuguese. Since most of us are using English on this forum, don't go around correcting people for using proper English (something you have obviously not yet mastered).

Second... the distance from Sao Jose dos Campos to Manaus is less than 1500nm. The range of a Legacy is over 3000nm. Yet you seem to present as fact that they were pushing their fuel, and hence refused to descend from FL370 to FL360. This is beyond speculation, it's blatantly idiotic. Furthermore, the service ceiling is FL410 not FL370 as you posted.

Third... Brazil has just over 11,000 total registered aircraft. The US has over 225,000 registered aircraft. The UK has over 17,000 total registered aircraft. I picked those countries at random, and have already shown that your statement that Brazil has the "second largest fleet" is total B.S. I haven't even looked at Australia, Russia, etc. all of which certainly have larger fleets than Brazil.

Fourth and last... you seem to want to educate us all on ICAO rules and yet your profile shows that you hold both an "FAA ATP" and an "ICAO ATP". Surely then you know that an FAA ATP is an ICAO ATP...

 

[HS125]

Weasil are u a pilot?
If you were you would know about 2 important things.
1-> most of the airtraffic rules are not made by FAA and by ICAO for the entire WORLD and this is for all countries that accept ICAO that means 99% exmptions would be North Korea, Uganda to name a few.

And no matter where in the world you are, you don't change altitude unless authorized by ATC. Just because your flight plan shows that you will have a planned decent after a given fix, you stay at your present altitude until ATC says otherwise. If you don't hear or respond to ATC's instructions, as far as ATC is concerned, it's the same as ATC having not given those instructions.

I've been to Brazil a couple of times, you may have radar and VHF communications, but the quality of ACT communications over the middle of the Amazon are fair at best. More than once I've been given instructions by Brazilian ATC (especially Manaus) where they were next to impossible to understand, or I would go unanswered for quite sometime and need to make numerous calls just to get a response.

Sharkey and all others were very lucky for those pilots tuning off the transponder

How do you know that the pilots turned off the transponder? Maybe the transponder or ATC's equipment malfunctioned. It's the Brazilian press that is insisting that these pilots intentionally turned off the transponder. I don't buy it. This sounds more like someone in Brazil is putting out misinformation to take the focus of the investigation or public attention off of ATC.

trying to push a filght all the way from sao Jose dos Campos to Manaus in a Legacy non-stop to refuel

Sao Jose dos Campos is approximately 120 Km east of Sao Paulo. Embraer shows that the Range of the Legacy 600 with 8 passengers would allow the Legacy to fly easily from Sao Paulo to Bogota Columbia. Manaus is around the half way point, hardly a stretch for the Legacy 600.

and with low (if any) experience in international flights.

Even with Low to no International experience, this is not that difficult of a flight with proper preparation.

Now they gonna face a process for negligence and USA and Brasil have no agreement for extradition that means if condemmned will face brasilian prisons and that is far worst than death penalty.

In a country where the political and legal system is unbelievably corrupt and it looks like the deck is being stacked against them. God help them!

So next time measure your words.:uzi:

 

[RP 04]

Fourth and last... you seem to want to educate us all on ICAO rules and yet your profile shows that you hold both an "FAA ATP" and an "ICAO ATP". Surely then you know that an FAA ATP is an ICAO ATP...

He reminds me of a guy I met at MIA once. Running his big trap how he held both ICAO and FAA ATP's. Bet it's the same guy...