Brainwashing at UND!!!

[DC8 Flyer]

UGHHH! I gotta stop feeding the trolls.

 

[Almerick07]

Man, I feel sorry for people that will fly their entire lives in such a stringent strict procedure filled envirnoment. I go to a large 4 year university with a recognized aviation program and I love the fact that at a seconds notice I can take off and go anywhere I please without worrying about rules fit for monkeys. Dont get me wrong we have our rules and procedures but most of those are in place to keep student pilots alive, once youve established yourself as a pilot they trust you to make the decisions. Just makes me happy where I am....

 

[414Flyer]

Oh god, speaking of mindlessly following a checklist, I could easily go off into another rant about low time Indian pilots.

I had a couple that had never been outside of a highly structured environment and were completely checklist slaves. I am not criticizing checklist usage, so dont flame me. I am however criticizing using a checklist and absolutely turning ones brain off when using it, which I had one that was exactly that way.

Sometimes he would just go slow, and I already had engines turning, and here he starts with the engine start portion of the checklist. Hello, dont you hear them turning.

and then he always mention such things as "passenger briefing" and "no smoking light" for the cabin, when its a cloud seeding aircraft, we dont have any passengers to brief, or to operate the no smoking light for.

I would ask him why he would say such things that absolutely did not apply to us, and his response is "Well its on the checklist" My reply was to the effect of well think about it. If it does not apply to us at all, then dont waste time on it. Think about things you are doing, do not just turn your brain off and mindlessly read something.

Some of them just had a hard time thinking in the cockpit, because their environment was so structured, they never had to.

 

[check6]

I must say, everyone posting here has some good arguments.

I attended and graduated UND and currently am teaching at a part 61 school with very little supervision. Again, this is my first instructing job and the thought of having no one to turn to when I had a question scared me at first(unlike UND). The policies and procedures at UND, as well as the standards at UND, have prepared me to "make up" some of my own and survive.

I don't force my students to think about legal versus illegal. I teach them between good judgment versus bad judgment, right versus wrong, etc. You know, the real world stuff.

Reading some of the things we had to do brings back memories though. Here in the real world of flying, my students and I make the go/no go decision. We do have Garmin 430's, which we are lucky to have, but our planes are not new by any means. Things break and there are no MELs, not everyone has money or as much motivation. Students in the real world are not all 18-23 year-olds with minds like sponges.

In conclusion, I've learned a hell of a lot more in the real world, but UND prepared me to deal with the change. As for the UND instructors who started to fly at UND, instruct at UND, and go to an airline job from UND, I feel sorry for you. The funny thing is I fly in a much more challenging environment and I fly more than a UND instructor does.

 

[check6]

One other thing. . .

Given a chance to grow and make more operational decisions on their own, a qualified applicant would quickly turn into an asset at a flight school.

An addendum to my last post. . . .


In a nutshell, this statement describes me.

 

[Fuzzy_is_Hungry]

HAHAHA!

FYI: Most flight schools DO NOT force their instructors to wear these silly uniforms. Also, the instructor that does this voluntarily is a complete tool.

Learning to fly should be fun, not such a procedural hassle. We can save all the flows, SOP's, FOM, etc for later in life. Trust me, you'll do plenty of it when the time comes.


Art V,

No CFI should be wearing epaulets. Its a kick in the nuts to anyone who has actually earned them. Until you are in a 135 or 121 role, you should not be wearing an aviator shirt.

 

[NoPax]

.....

 

[avbug]

No CFI should be wearing epaulets. Its a kick in the nuts to anyone who has actually earned them. Until you are in a 135 or 121 role, you should not be wearing an aviator shirt.

Good gravy, that was arrogant. I mean ARROGANT!!!

Earned them? As in cleaned the lavs with your toothbrush and recited the pledge of allegiance until your throat ran hoarse? Or perhaps flew back and forth under powerlines until you were the only one alive to crawl to the pulpit in your classroom and accept those hard earned stripes? Get a clue, brightspark.

It's not kick in my genetalia if someone wears epaulets and they don't work for a 121 or 135 operation. I've flown various corporate, freight, and other jobs that involved wearing epaulets...I wear them now for a carrier, but SO WHAT? Are you really so arrogant as to believe that there's something about flying for an air carrier that legitimizes wearing a pilot shirt, or that makes one a real pilot? What an utterly sickening belief. Really.

You might not have noticed this, so you might wanna sit up and pay attention. A flight instructor is required to hold a commercial airman certificate. That's right, kiddo...flight instructors are real pilots, too. I don't get to instruct very often, but I relish the opportunity, and don't see instructing as doing anything any different than any other flying job...It's a working role for a working aviator, and if the company policy involves wearing a uniform, then so be it.

You really believe that the only true aviators are those working for air carriers? Crikey. You're in for a rude awakening.

 

[hydroflyer]

Does UND allow "fun" flights outside of the training schedule? How about the other big name schools like ERAU and Comair? Just curious because I thought I heard something like that and it would be a shame if it was true.

And for fun....

I've got over 5,000 epaulet free flying hours.

 

[wxman13]

As mentioned in an earlier post, is it true that UND (and maybe other 141 schools for all I know?) have a person OTHER than the instructor or pilot flying PIC making the go/no-go decision? Cuz that is just a little scary. Talk about learning how to work in the real world, I think developing the judgment to make that decision is one of the more crucial parts of learning to fly. Right up there with landing.

Peter

 

[DC8 Flyer]

Dangit! Fell for the little troll again. I need a hobby!

 

[gkrangers]

Does UND allow "fun" flights outside of the training schedule? How about the other big name schools like ERAU and Comair? Just curious because I thought I heard something like that and it would be a shame if it was true.

And for fun....

I've got over 5,000 epaulet free flying hours.

I go to ERAU, in Daytona...I'm not in the flight program, tho. I fly off campus, Part 61..not gonna subject me to all that 172 simulator crap!

As far as I know, students can rent 172s for "fun", but can get kicked off the schedule if the aircraft is needed for a "lesson".

And then there are all the rules and paperwork...so wheres the fun?

I've gotta say, theres a mixed crowd here, probably the same at all the other "aviation universities". There are dorks, and there are normal level headed college students. Some buy into the "I'm better cuz I went to ERAU", some don't. Some are good pilots, some aren't. Some benefit from the strict procedural training environment, some don't...

It goes on and on...but in my opinion, the most important thing to never lose sight of, is that learning to fly is supposed to be enjoyable....and to always have a grasp of what the real world is like outside ERAU and UND, etc... (Ok so thats two things)

Students aren't going from graduation to the airlines...and there should be more emphasis, IMO, on the "real world". It'll make for more well rounded students and less dickheads.

 

[Cutlass1287]

As mentioned in an earlier post, is it true that UND (and maybe other 141 schools for all I know?) have a person OTHER than the instructor or pilot flying PIC making the go/no-go decision? Cuz that is just a little scary. Talk about learning how to work in the real world, I think developing the judgment to make that decision is one of the more crucial parts of learning to fly. Right up there with landing.

Peter

The policy is that anyone in the flight department can cancel a flight when its deemed excessively risky. The PIC, CFI, Student, Supervisor of flight, etc... all have the power to make the NO go decision. When the weather gets worse than what is specified in our safety manual, we go "no fly." You cannot rent an aircraft at this time. Obviously, you dont have to fly just because they say it IS safe. You can cancel your own flight at any point.

And no, you cannot rent an aircraft unless it is for a specific lesson. Even if you have your private, you can't just go up and fly.

 

[100LL... Again!]

A lot of college-program CFIs have decent knowledge and skills, but they often have a stick up their arse and have a "my college's way is the only safe way" mentality.

I personally enjoy deprogramming them a little and opening up their viewpoint.

 

[Night_Flight]

FlyingToIST-

First off, I like your website www.acuwings.com. Is this the school you operate? I bet there is a lot of great flying out in that area!

Since you are a professional pilot and interviewer, I hope that you realize that each prospective employee you interview are different and bring their own traits to the interview.

That's unfortunate that you had a few bad interviews with UND graduates. I'm sure you have had bad interviews with others as well, either from FBO's or other flight schools. As a UND alum and ex "BrainWasher" flight instructor, I assure that as with anywhere, there are very sharp, and skilled pilots and then there are those who just go through the motions and get by. It's not fair to generalize and say "I cannot believe how successfuly the school brain washed them all.. "

Flying is fun! Some fun things I did while at UND was flying XC's into MSP many times, Winnepeg (Int'l expierence), Meigs, DEN...low IFR flying, acrobatic flights and providing many fun expierences for my students to learn from.

I also smirked when I read some of the things you heard. Most graduates from UND or ERAU or Purdue etc... should know most of these things. It is sad that your few pilots are unable to think outside of the box. I assume that they are newer instructors who haven't had many teaching expierences yet. Give it time and with your help, they will form their own good traits and habits.

As mentioned before, all this "procedural" stuff is designed to prepare students for the airlines, and what do you mean "Except to show off?" Not all UND grads are heading for the airlines, but it's procedures are essencial for safety. As you know, their is a vast difference between Part 61 and 141 which I am not about to get into. I've taught both and have issued certs.

Good luck with your school and I hope you have a few better apples from UND and others that help Acu Wings to grow!


Peter-

The main reason that "A person OTHER than the instructor or pilot flying PIC making the go/no-go decision" is that the FSDO and insurance companies usually give go/no-go guidelines for fianical and safety reasons. Would you let a brand new PVT pilot go on a 250nm XC with 3sm and 1000'? Sure it's legal, but what if they were your responsibility and using your aircraft? If a company would allow this, then this would be a "Just a little scary".

"Talk about learning how to work in the real world", well in the real world, airlines and corporate and most company pilots also have others make the go/no-go decision. Dispatch and your company come up with guidelines for operations-just like flight schools and FBO's.

As always, the PIC ALWAYS has the final go/no-go decision. That's one thing you have been tested on during every checkride.

---------
UND, ERAU, Purdue and other schools all have skilled and lacking grads, just like corporate pilots, airline pilots, flight instructors, students...
It's all up to the individual.

As my FAA checkairmen who gave me my Private said, "Your license is a ticket to continue your learning."

Happy Contrails,

-Night_Flight-