Brainwashing at UND!!!

[FlyingToIST]

I have interviewed a UND graduate for a CFI position recently. This is the third one that I have interviewed and I cannot believe how successfuly the school brain washed them all..

Flying is supposed to be fun, without a comprimise from safety. Here are the things I heard by these poor souls:

- Do I have to request permission to transition through Class B air space from the chief flight instructor?
- Where are your SOP manuals?
- (When outside of Class D airspace) do I have to ask for a permission to change frequencies/do I need to contact approac?/Do I need to call XYZ?
- (While doing a low pass over a public grass field) Is this legal?
- (while landing and taking off on a short field of 2700 feet) Is this legal?
- (After we come back from the flight) Don't I have to do a post flight checks (the same thing as pre flight). Do I get yelled at if I don't do a post flight check?
- (While trying to work with KX170Bs and KX155s) I have never used these before. I am used to G430s.. These are complicated..

I am sorry, but flying is not this.. Looks like they are brain washing you with all these "procedural" stuff that is not that important to my eyes, except to show off..

I am so glad that I got my ratings through local FBOs.. You people need to relax little bit and discover that flying is a lot of fun.

 

[moxiepilot]

i find it happens at a number of big name schools, not to say they're all bad. But I'd have to agree with you here, the best training I ever got was at a mom & pop FBO where the instructors asked real world questions to get you to THINK about the regs and apply them.

For example, since Key West is farther than 12 nm of the coast and south of latitude 25*04'00, what airspace is at 18,500 feet? hmmmm.

 

[Doc Holiday]

I would have to disagree. Procedure is important and enhances safety, that is why professional flying incorporates procedure into almost everything. The challenge is to be able to combine procedure with the real world so that the operation is as seamless as possible. This contributes greatly to accomplishing everyday operations safely, legally, and efficiently. This applies to Part 61 instruction and recreational flying as well. It may not need to be on the level professional flight crews use, but little procedures (simple flows, for example) helps any operation. A good CFI can provide structure like that without 'browbeating' a student, and that structure will make the student a better pilot in the end.

I think you are being a little tough on what seem like some harmless questions (i.e. postflight, permission from the CP, GPS). Other questions I think a CFI should definitely know (the Class D frequency). Either way, you have to realize where these applicants are coming from - a highly structured environment with much oversight and guidance. This very well could have been their first time flying an airplane that wasn't owned and operated by UND. Given a chance to grow and make more operational decisions on their own, a qualified applicant would quickly turn into an asset at a flight school.

 

[Cutlass1287]

I have interviewed a UND graduate for a CFI position recently. This is the third one that I have interviewed and I cannot believe how successfuly the school brain washed them all..

Flying is supposed to be fun, without a comprimise from safety. Here are the things I heard by these poor souls:

- Do I have to request permission to transition through Class B air space from the chief flight instructor?
- Where are your SOP manuals?
- (When outside of Class D airspace) do I have to ask for a permission to change frequencies/do I need to contact approac?/Do I need to call XYZ?
- (While doing a low pass over a public grass field) Is this legal?
- (while landing and taking off on a short field of 2700 feet) Is this legal?
- (After we come back from the flight) Don't I have to do a post flight checks (the same thing as pre flight). Do I get yelled at if I don't do a post flight check?
- (While trying to work with KX170Bs and KX155s) I have never used these before. I am used to G430s.. These are complicated..

I am sorry, but flying is not this.. Looks like they are brain washing you with all these "procedural" stuff that is not that important to my eyes, except to show off..

I am so glad that I got my ratings through local FBOs.. You people need to relax little bit and discover that flying is a lot of fun.

As a UND student, I suppose I can only speak for myself. I trained and got my private out of a small FBO, and things are more definitely more strict here, and more procedural. However, (at least this is what they tell us), this is the way the airlines do things, so they are just getting us into good habits.

Some of the stuff I find to be good, like the postflight check. This is something I was never used to, but it takes 20 seconds, and this way you know if something is screwy, and you can give a heads up the the next pilot, or mx.

As far as the first couple of questions you posted, those are stupid questions. The regs clearly state things the way they are, and any CFI worth his epaulettes should know the answers.

I guess there are some people like that around here, but we also do plenty of flying into short, grass strips, and as far as I know, we dont need any specail permission, other than that the strip has to be on the UND approved list. Almost all the airports around here are on the list, except a select few that UND decided it does not want to take the risk on.

Overall, the UND program does have the potential to make flying a lot less fun, but nonetheless, it is still possible to comply with their rules and procedures, and still have fun with it. Its really up to the pilot.

 

[avbug]

If your postflight takes twenty seconds, you're not doing a postflight inspection.

Do your preflights take twenty seconds?

A postflight should be every bit as thorough.

 

[414Flyer]

As a UND student, I suppose I can only speak for myself. I trained and got my private out of a small FBO, and things are more definitely more strict here, and more procedural. However, (at least this is what they tell us), this is the way the airlines do things, so they are just getting us into good habits.

There is heck of a lot more to aviation than the airlines. And just because its how airlines do it, doesnt mean thats how everything should work.

One of my friends who instructed had similar comments regarding UND, and how structured it was. He said, someone jokingly but not all the way, that a cloud in the sky grounded everything. Also a comments on how a lot of students were there on daddys money, and not really terribly motivated, especially compared to pt 61, where people are there because they want to be.

Dont get so caught up in the hurry-up-andgetotheairlinesrightnow mentality that you forget to enjoy aviation and have fun. Most people I know at the airlines, dont exactly thing it is a fun job.

Too many here get to caught up in the destination, that they forget about the journey there.

 

[Cutlass1287]

We have a postflight checklist that we follow, its fairly thourough.

The program here at UND is an airline pilot training program. Sure, you don't have to go into the airlines just because you train here. In fact, I don't think I want to fly for an airline, quite frankly, I havent heard good things about them! The point is, you should know how this stuff works, and how to follow the rules. There is no reason why you can't follow the rules and still have fun.

I havent yet had a problem with cancelling for weather, however it is kind of annoying that they have one guy sitting at a desk making the go no go decision for you. I was taught in primary training that it was up to me to learn how to make that decision, and I certainly don't wait around for the SOF to make it for me. Obviously I am not going if UND is "no fly," but im not necesarily going just because UND says its ok.

 

[Art Vandalay]

any CFI worth his epaulettes should know the answers.

HAHAHA!

FYI: Most flight schools DO NOT force their instructors to wear these silly uniforms. Also, the instructor that does this voluntarily is a complete tool.

Learning to fly should be fun, not such a procedural hassle. We can save all the flows, SOP's, FOM, etc for later in life. Trust me, you'll do plenty of it when the time comes.


Art V,

 

[PDTGIMP]

I have interviewed a UND graduate for a CFI position recently. This is the third one that I have interviewed and I cannot believe how successfuly the school brain washed them all..

Flying is supposed to be fun, without a comprimise from safety. Here are the things I heard by these poor souls:

- Do I have to request permission to transition through Class B air space from the chief flight instructor?
- Where are your SOP manuals?
- (When outside of Class D airspace) do I have to ask for a permission to change frequencies/do I need to contact approac?/Do I need to call XYZ?
- (While doing a low pass over a public grass field) Is this legal?
- (while landing and taking off on a short field of 2700 feet) Is this legal?
- (After we come back from the flight) Don't I have to do a post flight checks (the same thing as pre flight). Do I get yelled at if I don't do a post flight check?
- (While trying to work with KX170Bs and KX155s) I have never used these before. I am used to G430s.. These are complicated..

I am sorry, but flying is not this.. Looks like they are brain washing you with all these "procedural" stuff that is not that important to my eyes, except to show off..

I am so glad that I got my ratings through local FBOs.. You people need to relax little bit and discover that flying is a lot of fun.

Yes,

It must be just UND. This is the only school that has dorks that have never flown anywhere but UND.

Dude, this statement proves that you don't get out much. With more experience you'll discover these people are everywhere, from every school.

Brainwashing! Think about it: 20 something kids, in college, flying airplanes..and we should not have SOP's. That makes tons of sense.

Yes, they don't have real world experience...teach them..don't complain about it...could be much worse.

FYI: "porcedural" things that are not important to you equates to washing out at any Part 121 airline if you try. They are not showing off, they are prepared for the airline enviroment, where 90% are trying to get to.

 

[Cutlass1287]

HAHAHA!

FYI: Most flight schools DO NOT force their instructors to wear these silly uniforms. Also, the instructor that does this voluntarily is a complete tool.

Learning to fly should be fun, not such a procedural hassle. We can save all the flows, SOP's, FOM, etc for later in life. Trust me, you'll do plenty of it when the time comes.


Art V,

I was kind of poking fun at the whole uniform issue with my comment, I assure you I wasn't serious. CFIs don't get paid enough to be stuffed into an airline uniform (then again, neither do airline pilots).

I kind of agree with you as far as the flows and SOPs, for people who truly are learning to fly just for the fun of it, and dont plan to persue it as a profession. However, here at UND, people are spending a lot of money, and a lot of time to learn how to be career pilots. Plus, as stated above, we are young, college types, and we aren't exactly known for our maturity or perfectness. I think the SOPs do help, to a certain extent, maintain order and safety. However, when it gets to the point where you don't even need to think anymore, I see a problem. I don't allow myself to operate like that. I make my own decisions, and think about a problem before I mindlessly follow a checklist. There are a few checklist items that I simply disagree with, and would not choose to execute in an emergency. I learn them and recite them back to make the authorities happy, but I know that when the $h!t hits the fan, I am going to do whatever it takes to cope with the emergency, and if that means following the checklist to the T, so be it, and if that means deviating from the checklist when I feel that there is a better course of action, well, then so be it.