Boycott Nwa

[G100driver]

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It is becoming too cheap to charter these days and those of us who want to return to the airlines ASAP don't want to keep losing out to the fractionals and and private aircraft.

I too am sorry that your job sucks.

If the airlines could figure out how to keep from wasting peoples time (money) perhaps the folks who charter might consider getting back on the majors.

Do not forget that a signifcant group of professionals work in the G/A sector. I, and the firm that I work for, are supporting the majors through our tax dollars (bailout). Evertime an airplane over 6000lbs(?) goes out on charter the customer must pay a FET tax of 7.5%. Consider a $100,000 G-III charter to Europe. That is $7500.00 fee. Not to mention the local taxes, local landing fees, ect. I think that Mr/Mrs charter customer is taxed enough.

No one ever taxed themselves into prosperity.

 

[DCitrus9]

CatYaak said "Use Europe as an example; user fees for ATC, high handling charges and airport fees, and plenty of large corporations/wealthy individuals."

I am tired of people advocating user fees by comparing us to europe. It is like comparing apples to eggs. The user fee is a fine, but DIFFERENT, tax system. There is no income tax, alas a higher take home pay to spend on items you see fit. You will be taxed appropriately on said items.

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaak said "Use Europe as an example; user fees for ATC, high handling charges and airport fees, and plenty of large corporations/wealthy individuals."

I am tired of people advocating user fees by comparing us to europe. It is like comparing apples to eggs. The user fee is a fine, but DIFFERENT, tax system. There is no income tax, alas a higher take home pay to spend on items you see fit. You will be taxed appropriately on said items.

I'm not advocating their system. Their system (their entire system, not just their ATC/user fee system), IMO, sucks, and has the larger effect of quashing aviation in all sectors, as well as individual wealth.

My point to the other poster was that you can't tax yourself, even if it's being used against your competition, into prosperity.

 

[merikeyegro]

GA pays its share. Fuel fees are about right, ramp and landing fees where needed. Need we remind the airlines that reliever airports exist to RELIEVE THE BIG AIRPORTS OF DELAYS. Also, I'm pretty certain the the fuel-flowage fees go into the trust fund. I'll look it up, but I'm almost sure that one of the aviation acts of the 1970s used this tax to help upgrade the clogged system at the time. I'll go home and look it up when I get the chance. I'm almost sure it was during the Nixon Administration. Took a class on this stuff last year (brain dump, sorry).

GA should not be subsidizing airlines, nor the converse. I'd say we're all overtaxed, but it's a user-funded system, so I can't complain too loudly. Kill GA and you kill your source of employees.

Join AOPA and fight these fools. NWA (parents worked for them for over 30 years) has a well-documented history of bullying just about everyone in MSP for financial gain. It spans multiple decades and many a CEO. They are NOT your friends.

That being said, they're a helluva lot nicer (and more on-time) than Delta (or Continental, surprisingly - in the "nicer" area) and I plan to continue to fly them. Guess it's the best of the worst...Count me out for the boycott...

 

[goaliemn]

During an investigation of landing fees in MSP, it was discovered that the Metropolitan Airports Comission was inappropriately usuing the funds it collected. The MAC controls MSP & 5 or 6 GA airports in the MSP area. The MAC was USING REVENUE FROM LANDING FEES AT MSP TO SUPPORT OPERATIONS AT THE OTHER AIRPORTS. In other words, NWA was indirectly supporting GA at other airports. Anderson's claim is "why should a passenger flying LAX-MSP-ORD support the operations at an outlying facility they never used?" They shouldn't. The GA airports should be self-sufficient.

Part of the reason NWA pays for some of the reliever airports is to increase efficiency at MSP. The reliever airports were built to relieve congestion at MSP. If they weren;t helping support the smaller airports, they would have more GA at MSP.

I do believe that the airports need to be looked at. There are acouple of relievers that seem to be dying a slow death. I think they could trim the funding that some get, or even close down at least one.

 

[pilotman2105]

I'm on vacation now and just flew NWA. Won't fly them again. His arguments in the article are pretty rediculous. Others in the thread have already pointed out how GA users pay. NWA (and all of the other majors) needs to stop pointing the finger and start looking internally for ways to cut costs and increase profit (or decrease their losses).

 

[320AV8R]

Part of the reason NWA pays for some of the reliever airports is to increase efficiency at MSP.

Wrong. NWA "pays" nothing to reliever airports. The landing fees paid to use MSP were DIVERTED to other airports by the MAC. Efficiency is a result of the number of aircraft operations, not something that is purchased.


The reliever airports were built to relieve congestion at MSP. If they weren;t helping support the smaller airports, they would have more GA at MSP.


Correct. However, the decision to build & operate those GA airports rests with the local governments, the FAA etc....not an airline operation at MSP; who has no business subsidizing their operation.

 

[G100driver]

Correct. However, the decision to build & operate those GA airports rests with the local governments, the FAA etc....not an airline operation at MSP; who has no business subsidizing their operation.

Those is glass houses ......

 

[goaliemn]

Wrong. NWA "pays" nothing to reliever airports. The landing fees paid to use MSP were DIVERTED to other airports by the MAC. Efficiency is a result of the number of aircraft operations, not something that is purchased.

By moving the aircraft to another reliever airport, that helps with efficiency. So you do indirectly purchase efficiency.

As a private pilot, I do pay some for the airport with hangar rent, aircraft registration fees, fuel fees. I don't use much ATC as I don't fly instrument, and I also don't fly above 018FL, which requires ATC contact. Airlines always use ATC, and they do generate revenue. Much like how residential phone service costs less than business, and business phone service helps subsidize residential service.

NWA did come out and attack the smaller airports afew months ago saying they were losing revenue because of them. Yes, it may hurt them some, but I'd say 99% of the flying public won't go to STP and get on their private jet and take that instead of flying in a big jet. They may lose afew tickets to them, but I don't think its a substantial number. I know if I'm flying more than afew hundred miles, I usually go commercial as I don't want to spend all day puttering my way across the country.

 

[320AV8R]

By moving the aircraft to another reliever airport, that helps with efficiency. So you do indirectly purchase efficiency.

We don't move GA aircraft to other airports. They move themselves, since the facilities & operating conditions are more GA friendly.

 

[goaliemn]

We don't move GA aircraft to other airports. They move themselves, since the facilities & operating conditions are more GA friendly.

ok. you "encourage them greatly to move by placing large fees at the larger airports and making them less GA friendly"

I did want to point something out from an earlier comment of yours I just noticed..

However, the decision to build & operate those GA airports rests with the local governments, the FAA etc....not an airline operation at MSP; who has no business subsidizing their operation.

All the relievers are run by the MAC, which is a "local government" organization setup specifically to run and maintain the airports. Reliver and MSP. I'd love to see if NWA, and other airlines, many years ago, as business grew at MSP, asked for the relievers to be built. Something to research I guess.. hrm...

 

[320AV8R]

I'm not sure what your main argument is.

MSP is a large airport whose operators should not subsidize any other independent operation. (The thread's main point)

MSP has historically been a large airport for large commercial airliners. As the population grew & small planes increased in number, many GA airports were built. Just like MIA...there's Opa Locka & Tamiami. Instead of EWR, bizjets & small aircraft use TEB, etc etc etc.. Three hundred pound people usually don't buy a GEO Metro.

 

[goaliemn]

I'm not sure what your main argument is.

MSP is a large airport whose operators should not subsidize any other independent operation. (The thread's main point)

They aren't an independent operation. Al 7 airports in Minneapolis are run by the Metropolitan airport commission. It recieves state and federal funding for all 7 airports. All money for all 7 airports comes from the same pot, so to speak.

I wish the NWA higher ups would stop blaming everyone else for their problems. They blamed small planes for eating into their customer base for awhile (I'm sure it does, but I'd be shocked if its more than acouple percent) Now they try to say that GA doesn't pay a dime for anything. GA pays into the funds through taxes and registrations. Are they in the same league as NWA? no. They don't make money (kinda like how commercial property is taxed higher than residential) and they don't use as many services. I'll point back to my business phone service subsidizing residential phone service. I'll also go back to the fact that commercial airliners are in constant ATC contact, while GA aircraft isn't (Yes, IFR flights are. I'd be curious to know how many GA flights are IFR vs VFR)

 

[320AV8R]

They aren't an independent operation. Al 7 airports in Minneapolis are run by the Metropolitan airport commission. It recieves state and federal funding for all 7 airports. All money for all 7 airports comes from the same pot, so to speak.

Obviously semantics has taken over this thread.

It's not that difficult a concept. However the repeated explanation has caused this thread to exhaust itself of any form of value.