Boycott Nwa

[Viper1948]

No G/A Pilot should ever fly NWA!

http://www.nwa.com/corpinfo/aword/

 

[Echopapa]

I think NWA CEO made several excellent points. Hands down they are my favorite airline to dead head. (and no I do not work for NWA).

Everyone should pay their fair share of the cost of running an airport and using ATC. There should be no exceptions for those that are wealth enough to own their own gulfstream. G/A pilots use the same services, take up ramp space, land on the same runway, and should pay for the cost it requires to make the system work.

EP

 

[scoreboard]

So we should further the economic troubles of late by shuting down private aviation, the place we all started?

 

[luv2fly]

-outside-

I'm not sure that charging $4.50 per segment to the business traveler that just paid $25,000 dollars to fly DFW to LAX in a GV is going to shut down general aviation. I think it is safe to say that most of the fractionals and other charter type operators should be paying the same fees as the airlines. They are providing the same service. I don't think there would be any change in general aviation if the air taxi carriers had to pay a passenger service fee. I don't think the debate is aimed at the guy buzzing around in his C152.

 

[Viper1948]

Does he think G/A pilots buy tax free 100LL?

Where does he think his pilots come from - largely G/A and instructor ranks?

What would he think if all AOPA and EAA members suddenly pledged to only "Fly United" or "Fly the Best Care in the Air"!!!

Didn't the taxpayers (including G/A pilots) end up bailing out the airlines?

Pilots - One for All and All for Me!

 

[goaliemn]

So we should further the economic troubles of late by shuting down private aviation, the place we all started?

This irritates me. Here, in Minneapolis, NWA has been suing the local airport commission saying the reliever airports are costing them customers. I highly doubt they divert a noticeable number of passengers. I fly a 172. I pay an annual registration fee to the State which is supposed to help cover expenses. I also pay an extra 5% sales tax on anything I buy at the field (maps, training, food, hangar rental, etc..) All that goes to help pay for the field. NWA was trying to get the commission to charge the same landing fee that I'd pay to land at MSP to land at MIC They were pushing that real hard until someone reminded them of the delays that would be caused if we held a flyin there with 100 or so 172s and 152s.. Mine as well hold it there if we pay the same rate. The controllers at the tower asked to be notified ahead of time so they could have some extra on duty, as they agreed with our position.

Airlines have had many good years. They've had some bad ones. GA may have taken a small bite out of NWA's customer base, but not a big one. If anything, the new security/insecurity people at the airports have irritated some into going via private jet instead of arriving 2.5 hours early to clear the security point.

 

[a320drivr]

Richard Anderson has been blaming everybody else for the woes of NWA for years. He thinks everybody else should help support NWA and the rest of the majors instead of fixing whats wrong with them. I commute on NWA and they are a great airline and its not the employees that make NWA broken. Its lousy mgmt. decisions.

 

[Paul R. Smith]

BINGO!!!!!

Richard Anderson has been blaming everybody else for the woes of NWA for years. He thinks everybody else should help support NWA and the rest of the majors instead of fixing whats wrong with them. I commute on NWA and they are a great airline and its not the employees that make NWA broken. Its lousy mgmt. decisions.

Its never his ( The CEO's) fault. Its always a game where the blame gets put squarely on some group that should never be blamed in the first place...ie labor groups, and other GA aircraft operators. Ridiculous.

However, does it seem fair to have the airlines flip the bill for all airspace and airport improvements? A seminole would go from costing 150.00/hr to 155.00/hr wet. So for some guy who wants to buy 100 hours of seminole or duchess time the grand total of increase would be 500.00 more. That seems like a lot. Maybe you should be able to get your private pilot's license in a sim and never set foot in a plane until your certified to carry pax.. I'm just foaming but the airlines in fact do get stuck with the bill for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near everything aviation related it seems.

 

[AlbieF15]

As a lifelong GA renter (still cannot justify taking the plunge of buying with 3 girls and other bills at home), I was also irritated at Anderson's comments in this month's NWA magazine.

I fly NWA EVERY time I use a commercial DH for FDX, and last time I checked the FEDs shoveled tons of tax money into saving the industry after 9/11. However, that's not enough...he wants to take something I cannot yet afford and keep it that much farther out of reach. I know he's aiming at Learjets and King Airs, but my Tiger, Cardinal, or Twin Comanche dreams will also end up costing more too.

This is why I've been an AOPA member since 1982.

 

[goaliemn]

Re: BINGO!!!!!

However, does it seem fair to have the airlines flip the bill for all airspace and airport improvements?

Who makes money from using the airspace? I have no problem throwing in some for changes. I do that every year paying my registration fees and all the taxes I pay on fuel/supplies at the airport. See my post above.

I can definately promise you that as a GA pilot I will never see 90% of airport improvements done at larger airports. Most improvements are done to the passenger terminal or to the apron area in front of them. Heck, some airports put up little fences across taxiways that lead from the GA area to the passenger terminal now for "security reasons"

I'm just foaming but the airlines in fact do get stuck with the bill for **CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED****CENSORED** near everything aviation related it seems.

I landed at RST for a $100 hamburger on Valentines day. They had just built a brand-spaking-new GA terminal. It was quite nice. The first new GA terminal I've seen in years. As I was leaving, they asked me for a $5 ramp fee. I have no qualms paying for improvements I will use in my little plane.

More and more little airports are charging landing fees for small planes. Yes, I'm not paying the same $$ amount as the airlines, but based on the size of my cessna vs a 727, I think I may be getting overcharged.

 

[Viper1948]

But the main reasons for controlled commercial airspace is for the majors. Let's see, ya pays yer fee and ya gets all the services....

C345 - Minneapolis Approach - This is Cessna 12345 - flight of 114 - All Young Eagles flights, 10 west, landing MSP with Juliet.

MSP - Cessna 12345 Flight of 114 - Have you paid your $4.50 each for services?

C345 - That's affirm...we'd also like all your gates and 2 by 2 overhead breaks, and after that we'd all like practice ASR approaches.

MSP - Cessna 345, roger. Cleared for the visual - all runways, after your T&G's climbing right turns and contact the tower...break - Northwest 234 and 345 and 456 and 789 hold as published Nodine right turns, 1000' spacing...break - Northwest 111 and 222 and 333 and 444 - go directly to the penalty box and shut down...it's gonna be a loooong wait.

Yep, we'll all see ya all over MSP and DTW - glad you'll love to have us.

 

[BoilerUP]

Max takeoff and landing weight of a Piper Warrior is 2440 lbs.
Max takeoff and landing weight of a King Air 200 is 12,500 lbs.

Max takeoff weight for the Boeing 727-100 is 169,500 lbs.
Max landing weight for the Boeing 727-100 is 142,500 lbs.


Please explain to me why NWA wants to charge somebody who flies an aircraft that weights LESS THAN 1/10 of a small narrowbody jet the same landing fee.

Anybody been to ORD or MDW recently? Da Mare's little excavation party at Meigs has caused a big increase in GA at both. I agree with Viper - let the big boys play at MSP, let the little guys go into Flying Cloud, and everybody stays happy. All the savings NWA would get from changing the fee structure would go up in smoke after a few DC-9 go-arounds because Jimbo could fly his family in his V35 into MSP for the same price as the smaller airports, and its WAAAAAY closer to Mall of America.

We don't use NAV CANADA for a reason...

 

[Viper1948]

BoilerUP, you gets it!!!!

Y'all really want our students shooting an ILS to 22 at MSP in a 152 watching all the heavies yankin' and bankin' and gettin' spun a few times??? wait, I think I'd pay the landing fee just to see how much Jet A could be wasted!!

V

 

[juan2go]

NWA now on the official "no fly list"! I'll go fly my 182!

 

[acaTerry]

Let's not forget that $75.00 landing fee for GA aircraft at many of the dual-served airports....
Somebody needs to forward this to Phil Boyer.

 

[flywithruss]

I saw this on March 1st on an NWA flight. Faxed it to NBAA and AOPA the next day. Have since been contacted by both and assured they're taking steps to fight this one.

Anderson is factually inaccurate in certain areas. PFCs pay for terminal facility improvements ... my corporate passengers don't use those facilities ... why should they pay for them? I also pay 21.9 cents in FET on each and every gallon of fuel purchased, as do all GA pilots. Anderson also completely leaves out landing fees ... if my King Air lands at MSP, I pay a weight-based landing fee just like Northwest did for the A-319 I rode out there on a couple weeks ago. Let's not forget about ramp fees, parking fees, fuel flowage fees, etc collected by FBOs or airport authorities ... trust me, GA is pulling its weight in the system.

R

 

[canyonblue]

So are these frac operators going to ask to use another Airline for repositioning their crews?

 

[320AV8R]

NWA has been through a few rounds of cost-cutting measures.

During an investigation of landing fees in MSP, it was discovered that the Metropolitan Airports Comission was inappropriately usuing the funds it collected. The MAC controls MSP & 5 or 6 GA airports in the MSP area. The MAC was USING REVENUE FROM LANDING FEES AT MSP TO SUPPORT OPERATIONS AT THE OTHER AIRPORTS. In other words, NWA was indirectly supporting GA at other airports. Anderson's claim is "why should a passenger flying LAX-MSP-ORD support the operations at an outlying facility they never used?" They shouldn't. The GA airports should be self-sufficient.

Should the MAC charge HIGHER landing fees at the GA airports to reduce the fees NWA pays at MSP? Would that be fair? The fair solution is for the users to pay for what they use....A320s, C-152, whatever.

The call to "Boycott NWA" is quite interesting, & seems extreme. Would buying revenue tickets be off-limits, but riding the Jump Seat be OK?

 

[Flying the Line]

First of all this thread topic is Major Airlines, not C-172 pilots.

As a furloughed pilot and current King Air driver I can tell you that I get every service that a Airline gets and pay VERY LITTLE in return.

The 5% tax on 100LL does not go to the aviation trust fund, it is state and local.

On jet fuel we pay a 71/2% tax that is EXCISE tax that does go to the av trust fund. On a recent trip of 3 hours round trip we paid $41 in Aviation taxes. That is a drop in the bucket compared to what the airlines pay. 20.50 in one way taxes for 6 people compared to 3575.00 for an airline flight ($55 per pax X 130 pax / 2 landings).

Believe me that the owner of this King Air likes the scheduling and availibilty of his own airplane and would easily pay a lot more to keep it.

It is time to stop burdening the average passenger with high taxes while letting the ultra rich off the hook with minimum taxes for equal treatment.

Mr. Anderson is not calling for landing fees of 100.00 per C152 landing, but an increase of taxes on corporate aircraft.

It is becoming too cheap to charter these days and those of us who want to return to the airlines ASAP don't want to keep losing out to the fractionals and and private aircraft.

P.S. My job sucks.

 

[CatYaaak]

Mr. Anderson is not calling for landing fees of 100.00 per C152 landing, but an increase of taxes on corporate aircraft.

It is becoming too cheap to charter these days and those of us who want to return to the airlines ASAP don't want to keep losing out to the fractionals and and private aircraft.

P.S. My job sucks.

You think you're gonna tax them back into your airliners so you can soak them like you once tried to do? Think again. I think the airlines will have to look elsewhere to solve their self-inflicted problems. Begin by offering actual service and convenience, or sane pricing for business travelers, then go from there. You'll never change them back into your captive audience by merely holding a tax-gun to their heads.

Use Europe as an example; user fees for ATC, high handling charges and airport fees, and plenty of large corporations/wealthy individuals. They have relatively few corporate flight departments or private jets due to these excessive tax rates, but those exhorbitant taxes on the "other guy" certainly haven't kept the European airlines from bleeding red.

Coming from someone who wants to be recalled to an airline, your statement about chartering becoming "too cheap" is a little ironic don't you think? And a little ridiculous considering that the price of chartering airplanes hasn't come down. On the other hand, if something has become "too cheap", it's airline tickets.

The airlines have chosen to cater to the flip-flop crowd, not those wearing Brooks Brothers who were the foundation of the income. They're all too busy trying to emulate cattle car SWA's business model. Companies sending high-salary employees around the country can't afford to waste their valuable time airline travel promises when there is a much more efficient alternative, and wealthy individuals pay, and will always pay, to avoid the same hassles and substandard service like the plague.

Sorry your job sucks though.

 

[G100driver]

.

It is becoming too cheap to charter these days and those of us who want to return to the airlines ASAP don't want to keep losing out to the fractionals and and private aircraft.

I too am sorry that your job sucks.

If the airlines could figure out how to keep from wasting peoples time (money) perhaps the folks who charter might consider getting back on the majors.

Do not forget that a signifcant group of professionals work in the G/A sector. I, and the firm that I work for, are supporting the majors through our tax dollars (bailout). Evertime an airplane over 6000lbs(?) goes out on charter the customer must pay a FET tax of 7.5%. Consider a $100,000 G-III charter to Europe. That is $7500.00 fee. Not to mention the local taxes, local landing fees, ect. I think that Mr/Mrs charter customer is taxed enough.

No one ever taxed themselves into prosperity.

 

[DCitrus9]

CatYaak said "Use Europe as an example; user fees for ATC, high handling charges and airport fees, and plenty of large corporations/wealthy individuals."

I am tired of people advocating user fees by comparing us to europe. It is like comparing apples to eggs. The user fee is a fine, but DIFFERENT, tax system. There is no income tax, alas a higher take home pay to spend on items you see fit. You will be taxed appropriately on said items.

 

[CatYaaak]

CatYaak said "Use Europe as an example; user fees for ATC, high handling charges and airport fees, and plenty of large corporations/wealthy individuals."

I am tired of people advocating user fees by comparing us to europe. It is like comparing apples to eggs. The user fee is a fine, but DIFFERENT, tax system. There is no income tax, alas a higher take home pay to spend on items you see fit. You will be taxed appropriately on said items.

I'm not advocating their system. Their system (their entire system, not just their ATC/user fee system), IMO, sucks, and has the larger effect of quashing aviation in all sectors, as well as individual wealth.

My point to the other poster was that you can't tax yourself, even if it's being used against your competition, into prosperity.

 

[merikeyegro]

GA pays its share. Fuel fees are about right, ramp and landing fees where needed. Need we remind the airlines that reliever airports exist to RELIEVE THE BIG AIRPORTS OF DELAYS. Also, I'm pretty certain the the fuel-flowage fees go into the trust fund. I'll look it up, but I'm almost sure that one of the aviation acts of the 1970s used this tax to help upgrade the clogged system at the time. I'll go home and look it up when I get the chance. I'm almost sure it was during the Nixon Administration. Took a class on this stuff last year (brain dump, sorry).

GA should not be subsidizing airlines, nor the converse. I'd say we're all overtaxed, but it's a user-funded system, so I can't complain too loudly. Kill GA and you kill your source of employees.

Join AOPA and fight these fools. NWA (parents worked for them for over 30 years) has a well-documented history of bullying just about everyone in MSP for financial gain. It spans multiple decades and many a CEO. They are NOT your friends.

That being said, they're a helluva lot nicer (and more on-time) than Delta (or Continental, surprisingly - in the "nicer" area) and I plan to continue to fly them. Guess it's the best of the worst...Count me out for the boycott...

 

[goaliemn]

During an investigation of landing fees in MSP, it was discovered that the Metropolitan Airports Comission was inappropriately usuing the funds it collected. The MAC controls MSP & 5 or 6 GA airports in the MSP area. The MAC was USING REVENUE FROM LANDING FEES AT MSP TO SUPPORT OPERATIONS AT THE OTHER AIRPORTS. In other words, NWA was indirectly supporting GA at other airports. Anderson's claim is "why should a passenger flying LAX-MSP-ORD support the operations at an outlying facility they never used?" They shouldn't. The GA airports should be self-sufficient.

Part of the reason NWA pays for some of the reliever airports is to increase efficiency at MSP. The reliever airports were built to relieve congestion at MSP. If they weren;t helping support the smaller airports, they would have more GA at MSP.

I do believe that the airports need to be looked at. There are acouple of relievers that seem to be dying a slow death. I think they could trim the funding that some get, or even close down at least one.

 

[pilotman2105]

I'm on vacation now and just flew NWA. Won't fly them again. His arguments in the article are pretty rediculous. Others in the thread have already pointed out how GA users pay. NWA (and all of the other majors) needs to stop pointing the finger and start looking internally for ways to cut costs and increase profit (or decrease their losses).

 

[320AV8R]

Part of the reason NWA pays for some of the reliever airports is to increase efficiency at MSP.

Wrong. NWA "pays" nothing to reliever airports. The landing fees paid to use MSP were DIVERTED to other airports by the MAC. Efficiency is a result of the number of aircraft operations, not something that is purchased.


The reliever airports were built to relieve congestion at MSP. If they weren;t helping support the smaller airports, they would have more GA at MSP.


Correct. However, the decision to build & operate those GA airports rests with the local governments, the FAA etc....not an airline operation at MSP; who has no business subsidizing their operation.

 

[G100driver]

Correct. However, the decision to build & operate those GA airports rests with the local governments, the FAA etc....not an airline operation at MSP; who has no business subsidizing their operation.

Those is glass houses ......

 

[goaliemn]

Wrong. NWA "pays" nothing to reliever airports. The landing fees paid to use MSP were DIVERTED to other airports by the MAC. Efficiency is a result of the number of aircraft operations, not something that is purchased.

By moving the aircraft to another reliever airport, that helps with efficiency. So you do indirectly purchase efficiency.

As a private pilot, I do pay some for the airport with hangar rent, aircraft registration fees, fuel fees. I don't use much ATC as I don't fly instrument, and I also don't fly above 018FL, which requires ATC contact. Airlines always use ATC, and they do generate revenue. Much like how residential phone service costs less than business, and business phone service helps subsidize residential service.

NWA did come out and attack the smaller airports afew months ago saying they were losing revenue because of them. Yes, it may hurt them some, but I'd say 99% of the flying public won't go to STP and get on their private jet and take that instead of flying in a big jet. They may lose afew tickets to them, but I don't think its a substantial number. I know if I'm flying more than afew hundred miles, I usually go commercial as I don't want to spend all day puttering my way across the country.

 

[320AV8R]

By moving the aircraft to another reliever airport, that helps with efficiency. So you do indirectly purchase efficiency.

We don't move GA aircraft to other airports. They move themselves, since the facilities & operating conditions are more GA friendly.