Boeing 727 Memories

[AlbieF15]

I'm with General Lee.

I cannot possibly fathom why some guys relish the FE job. I have done CFI work, flipped burgers, growth burley tobacco, raised cattle, done photography, and worked as a retail clerk...all prior to flying for the AF. Some of the work was gritty hard work, but some of it was a lot of fun. Being an FE reminds me a lot more of some of the "drudge" work I did before and during college...not the flying I have gotten to do since. I do not relish the "brain dead" time, as boredom is the one thing I hate most about this job. I think competition with the captain on landings looks like a blast...and maybe if I ever FLY this old jet I'll develop some affection for it...but until then its just a job.

Plumbing this piece of FOD isn't the only bad part--its jumping through your @ss at every preflight then having an FO slide his seat so far aft you cannot open the non-pilot desk of shame and ask you for a sani-wipe, a bottle of water, or some other nonsense just as your world is exploding in paperwork queep. (This usually immediately follows his dumping the weather and other paperwork on top of a weight and balance sheet you were just working up...) For you FOs out there...if an FE hasn't ALREADY gotten you a bottle of water and given you a sani-wipe so you can disinfect the seat from the last lazy piece of crap FO, its only because there must have been some mitagating factor that has gotten him behind. Usually, its a mx issue that you have to troubleshoot, but it can also be some other issue with the ramp, etc. And no...I really don't need your ideas or techniques that you picked up during your 7 month tenure on the panel prior to your upgrade.

The only thing that keeps a smile on my face during the job is the fact better things await once enough guys move on. Good or bad, seniority is how things work in the airlines, and we all know lots of guys who've had it much worse than any of us. All of us in the back 5% at FedEx are greatful to have jobs with a great company, so we keep smiling and charging on, especially when our friends who 2 years ago were flying the 757 are now furloughed. However, when I see a row of 727s in the desert parked, I don't feel sad...I see a guy who now doesn't twist his back sitting sideways in an ergonomic nightmare who is hopefully off learning an FMS somewhere.

Rock on General Lee. Here's hoping maybe ONE day I can fly too, even if it is after I've done the walk around.

 

[VMA214]

My favorite expression about the 72:

"I've got 2500 hundred hours in the 72, two thousand of 'em are climbing"

I've actually got just shy of 3000 hours in the 72 in both the window seats and agree with the majority here that it is a great airplane and the last airliner truly made to be hand flown. It was built like a brick $hithouse!!

 

[mobs]

Do not know where you guys are flying,but I flew the 72 for 11 years before going to the 76 and then the A 330. As capt. I still did every third walk around(even in the rain)because I wanted to. If we had an empty leg the FE flew it. Always picked up the first round on a layover,ate the chicken,chased the oldest FA. Still do all the plotting for my leg over the pond and take the last room when we check in the hotel,that is the way I was taught. Mobs

 

[AlbieF15]

My post was likely a bit harsh....realizing I won't be upgrading for a long while is frustrating...

That aside...95% of the bros I've flown with have been great. And yes...I've had more than a few beers and quite a few dinners on some generous captains and even FOs.

Another bro of mine at Delta is likely going to be in these lastest cuts. Perhaps what I meant to say was "can I get anyone another water" and "who's ready for dinner?".

 

[steveg]

The Pigship,

Never have I hated and loved an airplane so much! I learned more in my 6 months with Piggy, than in any airplane before or since. FE school was a bitch. But sittin' in the back and switchin' and observing was a great way to be intro'd to the airlines. Lost the same engine twice in one day, for two different reasons! Dumped gas all over STL (the advertised dump rates are NOT correct!!!). But I learned how to handle an Emergency. Screwed up pretty much every list on it, but piggy was very forgiving. In short, although it wasn't all good, I wouldn't be half the pilot and team player I am today without her.

Steve

 

[de727ups]

The 727

The 727

You guys are soooo like it's the ex-727. I flew one today and gotta do it again on Monday.

It's no big deal....I don't know nothin' different. I flew Convair's before the back seat of a 72 and now I'm a lowly right seater on it. When I was in the back seat, it would piss me off when the pilots would walk right past the ice chest and sani wipes and then ask meeeeee to get them a water or wipey for them....as a front seater, I never do that. I've had a few F/E's scream at me for sliding my seat back too far, too fast, and nailing their knees...sorry guys...and I don't mind doing the engine heat.....

Personally....I'm looking at the right or left seat in a 757 for my next move. I'm pretty computer literate but must say, I'm a bit intimidated by the prospect of flying a computer rather than flying an airplane like I do now....

Any advice from those who have gone from real airplanes to the new, modern, flying machines....

 

[Huck]

Albie: love you man. I guess you're like me - you just found out you were closer to the MD11 in June '02 than you are now. Like you said, at least it ain't Home Depot. Give yourself a fuel imbalance every once and a while during cruise - it fights the boredom. p.s. Auburn in the sweet 16, baby!

Mobs - I got a good story for you. When I started IOE I was assigned an instructor that was the exact opposite of me - an ex-Marine F-18/Navy F-14 dude who was a former sniper. Great, I thought - a single seat nightmare.

In the week we flew together, not only was he a great instructor, but I couldn't buy a meal or a drink, and he did all the nasty walkarounds for me. A true gentleman, and now a good friend. The help you give your crew will (hopefully) be returned 10 fold. "If you would lead, you must first serve...."

 

[boeingav8r]

Why Not Be Happy To Be There?

Seems like most of the people bitching in this thread are the pilots who sit in the FE seat. I personally come from very humble upbringing. My father taught me alot about aviation and how airlines work. He is a 30,000 hour airline captain and I can remember him telling me when I started my first gound school with an airline to keep a positive, humble attitude and just "be happy to be there". "Cooperate and Graduate" he would say. Seems like in every initial ground school, you have the outspoken guy with all the "what if" scenereos. Don't bother trying to tell him anything, because he is the class know-it-all. These guys seem to be the same one's who bitch about being a flight engineer and how unfair it is that they're at the panel because they were hired as pilots. Few things in this world are permanent. The only Constant is Change. We all know how fast things change in this industry. These pilots who are bitching about sitting sideways in the 727 need to remember that sometimes you have to do things you don't like for awhile. We all know that the airlines use the seniority system, and even though things are slow right now, you WILL upgrade. At my airline, almost every engineer got the opportunity to upgrade to fo. It's funny because a few of the one's who constantly complained while they were fe's were the same ones who didn't pass their upgrade training. Imagine that...like I said above, attitude is everything.

I think that for the most part, pilots make poor flight engineers. When I was a 727 fo, some of my engineers were pilots and some were PFE's. PFE's for the most part do not care about piloting. Oftentimes they are ex military. They pride themselves on doing a good job at the panel. They usually know more about systems than the captains do. I've never had a PFE give me a dirty look if I ask for a bottle of water during cruise. (I'd get it myself, had it not been because the water supply is within direct reach of the FE desk). Alot of pilots, on the other hand, are poor engineers because they are just going through the motions. They are oftentimes bitter towards the pilots, especially the fo's because they want to be in the pilot seat. Some of them think they are "too good" to being doing what they consider mundane engineer duties.

I know of many furloughed pilots who would gladly take the place of a whiny flight engineer. If things are sooooo bad sitting sideways, why not just quit and give a more appreciative pilot a chance to perform fe duties and provide for his family. That reminds me of one of my favorite airline jokes:

What's the difference between a flight engineer and a 727 engine? The 727 engine stops whining after landing.

 

[acarpe3448]

I dont have a single bad thing to say about the 727. While I only did 8 months on the panel, it was incredable. I remember sitting back there with the biggest smile on my face ever!! I sat there thinking about flying this great ship, working for the best airline in the world, and having 100% Total Job Satisfaction until Contract 2000 changed the reserve system (I loved those two call up windows). Some of the memories I have:

OHIO - O2, Hyd Brake Pressure, Interconnect, Oil Qty
PGA - 5
Autopack Trip when the Capt Forgot and pulled back on Climbout
Shutting down the APU and then realizing #3 was not started
Making Company calls over the PA
Balancing Fuel-keep your eye on it!
"Protect Essential"
The DFW Switch - I remember the first time I got in an aircraft where someone had messed with the DFW switch. I thaught I would never get the temperature right! I burned them up in the back.
*Seems like the wildest overnights I had was always with the 727 crews.
The hardest ground school I have ever been through
Like drinking from a fire hose
Limitations test on first day of ground school
**The thing I remeber the most about the 727 was having the best 727 ground school instructor in the world. This guy knew every nut and bolt on the plane. He retired Delta right after our class. I consider myself Blessed to have learned from him.

 

[pylut]

One of my best flying jobs was right seat in the 727. I do remember being told this by a captain when I checked out as f/e.

There are 4 seats that face sideways on the 727 and 3 of them are toilets.

The 727 rocked
aa sucks

 

[Tri-holer]

I've got 1532 hours sitting sideways watching other people fly. That was 1500 hours too many. But, I loved the 72. Never got to be a Captain in it but had lots of fun flying it. Flying an CRJ now and still miss the old lady. I wish I could say it was the best of the big jets but it was my only big jet and I don't have the experience base to say that. But what a jet!

Best description of plumbing the 72 was like watching two people make love - kinda cool, but you would much rather be up there doing it yourself.

And as far as the 2-person 72 mod, it wasn't feasible. They determined that losing the birdstrike protection for the FE was an unacceptable loss.

Boeingav8r, you sound like you were at Kevin's airline. Nothing like running a good operation into the ground.

By the way, just because Delta et al doesn't fly it anymore doesn't mean it's gone. I flew it at a 3rd tier airline and there are many more of those still flying the Lady. Mostly at night. It will work on for a long time.

 

[KDA or DEATH]

727

Right Seat: 3 years

Left Seat: 6 years

I loved Her more than ANY of my ex-wives.

She was honest, true, sleek and fast...My ex's only met two of these requirements, and NOT the important ones.

Dang, I'm a little "verklempt"...that's all I can say right now.

YKW

 

[PastV1]

We still have a few left here at FDX. 124 I think. Saw on our info TV that we just took the last Eastern 727 to Fayetteville, AR and donated it to an aviation school.

Don't give up on the 727 yet. "When the last Airbus is flown to the desert, the crew will jumpseat home on a 727"

Past.....

 

[EOpilot]

That plane is a tank. Built back when Boeing was less concerned with cost and more concerned with never having to worry about sturctural or control failure.

Any newer aircraft will seem flimsy in comparison. More efficient, sure, but still not the same.

Almost 3 years and 1100 hours in the FE seat and a bit over a year and 600 hours in the FO seat.

Fininshing initial ground school was the proudest I've ever been in accomplishing a task. After that it was cake.

I love telling some of the stories about flying over in Europe (free speed!) and 350 to the marker. Unfortunately I only experienced that as an FE. And the ballistic trajectory climb to 330 from TUS to ELP. And 350 knots at 10000, 10 miles from the airport and getting unexpectedly cleared for the straight-in visual at IND (we were trying to make up for the 1 hour late departure. with the clacker cruise at 240 and the shortcut taxi route at JFK, it almost worked.)

As an FE I'd slap the side of the nose twice during the walkaround to signal the FO that it was all clear to open the hydraulic interconnect. In the beginning I did it as a matter of procedure. Towards the end I did it as kind of an "atta boy" for another cycle. One of these days I'll go down to Goodyear and visit one of those old postal birds. And if I get close enough, I'll give ol' 316 two pats on the nose.

 

[Rick1128]

The 72 is the Learjet of the airline set. Pour fuel in at one end and make noise out the other. Got over 1800 hours in the right seat. Was very fortunate to have a couple of very experienced Captains my first few months, who taugh me everything they knew on the airplane. Systems wise is was a bear, but the 70 was worst.

Ran across one of my one 72's in Africa being flown by Trans Afrik. They always seemed to be breaking through the runways and taxiways. They would jack em up and off they would go. While I was there one was hit by a 40mm AA shell. The crew landed safely. They replaced the flap, did a little sheet metal work and it was back on the line. Angola was tough on airplanes. I asked one of the crews, how heavy they flew the aircraft, which were all 100 series. The answer I got was that the performance charts went to 200,000 pounds. On a 169,500 pound GTOW aircraft. It is one tough bird.

Before the 'experts' start jumping in here, I do believe them on their weights as I have seem them load and unload, takeoff and I knew them well enough to know they were telling me the truth as they knew it.

 

[peter185]

727

General Lee, My experience is that those that bad mouth the three- holer never flew it, couldn't fly it, or were afraid of it. Which one of these categories do you fall into?
Also, in my limited experience, those that were unhappy as S/O's, are unhappy as F/O's, and are unhappy as Captains. Too bad you couldn't get along with one of Mr. Boeing's best airplanes: it is your loss.

 

[corpguy]

Single engine CFIs should keep their opinions to themselves.

Open a thread of 'memories of the 172'.

 

[dogman]

I really enjoyed sitting sideways on the 72. Sure, its was really busy at times and really boring at times, but it wasn't hard, except for ground school and the checkride. One of the funniest things I ever saw, was on the inside lid of the FE desk. It said, "Insert d*ck, slam lid hard!"

 

[peter185]

727

My dad posted that under my user name, he has sat in all 3 seats on the 727, and was a check airman, so has the experience to make that kind of statement. I tried to tell him that people would get on to me for posting something like that with the profile that I have but he insisted.

 

[mobs]

We have a pilot that when a new hire FE caught alot of flack. Terry Morgan and his dad(Len of Flying mag.) co-wrote the book The Boeing 727 Scrapbook. After Braniff went under Terry was hired by Piedmont and went to 727 grd. school, you can guess when he asked a question that everyone said "well you wrote the book"! He went on to be a 737 check airman,but his next book was about tanks.