Blochs interpretation

[sinkrate]

Read the language closely. Neither premerger group can displace the other group out of a CA seat once they are at their protected number. Look where the current CA's are. When the ATL operation is closed the premerger pcl 900 CA's cannot displace premerger mesaba CA's below their protected number. When The MSP 200 operation is wound down the premerger mesaba 200 CA's will not be able to displace premerger pcl CA's. Once a position starts expanding again all the CA awards will go the group that is below their awarded number. The 200 will never expand.


Now - if all you are worried about is the initial displacement out of ATL the premerger mesaba pilots will keep 100 CA seats on that award. Premerger pcl pilots will keep 541 200 CA seats on that award. It is mostly colgan pilots that will be displaed to FO. Once the new order 900's start arriving all those CA seats will go to premerger PCL pilots until they have 95 awarded. And as doin time said - after that they go in straight seniority.

My suspicion is some one is challenging what 'awarded' means in this language. These paragraphs use both 'awarded' and 'displaced' so it is clear the original author knew the difference.

Should some one succeed in changing that then the ATL pcl 900 CA's will be able to displace mesaba 900 CA's elsewhere in the system.





4.

For a period of five years beginning with submission of the

integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan
pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain
position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain​

positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be

awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless
Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions. In
the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279
and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900
captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba
pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle
reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be​

awarded in accordance with system seniority.

5. ​

​

For a period of five years, beginning with the submission of

the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or
Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200
captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 100 CRJ-200
captain positions and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot
may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position
unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 541 CRJ-200 captain
positions. In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have
less than 100 and 541 CRJ-200 captain positions
respectively, CRJ-200 captain positions shall be awarded on
a ratio of 100 Mesaba pilots to 541 Pinnacle pilots until
either Mesaba or Pinnacle pilots reach their minimum.
Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance
with system seniority under the ISL.​

​

 

[mesaba13]

Thanks for posting the language. It looks clear that Mesaba has to preserve 279 and 9E has to preserve 95 CRJ900 captain positions. So as ATL goes away the 9E number will drastically shrink and therefore no Mesaba pilot will be able to go into a new 900 until 9E gets above their ratio, which would seem to take around 16 aircraft deliveries. Which is the number of a/c 9E started with and thus generated the 95 spots. After that it would seem seniority would take over and in that portion of the list 9E will come out with more spots because they dominate the ISL in that area (ISL #356-#520).

With all aircraft delivered Mesaba would have 279+15=294 and 9E would have 95+102=197 and Colgan would have around 30 spots. This total would be around 520 Captain positions.

Regardless of the direction Bloch gives a month from now these numbers will be what the company looks like once the fences are down because of the very way the ISL was created. If the company survives until the fences are down.

 

[higney85]

Not arguing either side but nobody seems to put the difference of "positions" and airframes together. The award only deals with positions, not airframe ownership at the merger.

The reason the ATL birds left is simple, it was the only asset we had worth anything to delta. All the -200's and the XJ -900's had leases paid by DL already. The ATL birds were actually paid for by pinnacle, so they were taken as part of the dip financing deal.

Don't confuse airframes with seat ownership, this brings us back to issue #1 when we will have fewer 900 seats than the total of both quota numbers. This issue wasn't a problem as the XJ -200's crossed the fence and are now "unfenced 9E" birds since the total quota number had no impact in relation total seats.

 

[mesaba13]

I agree that pre-merger airframes do not matter post Bloch award. It seems like Bloch accounted for a shrinking fleet by stating 279 and 95 seats must be maintained for 5 years. As ATL shrinks those 9E Captains will not be able to displace any XJ premerger 900 Captains because XJ is below 279. (no premerger 9E pilot can be awarded or displaced to a 900 CA position unless XJ maintains 279 CA positions) This would have worked the same way if MEM was closed instead of ATL in that an XJ MEM CA would not be able to displace any 9E captain because 9E is below 95.

Blochs award also seems to also cover fleet growth. As aircraft are delivered the awards would go 279:95 until one pre-merger group reaches either 279 or 95, respectively. XJ would reach 279 quickly because they are not many below 279. As soon as XJ reaches 279 then 9E would get every 900 CA spot until they hit 95. (no premerger XJ pilot can be awarded or displaced to a 900 CA position unless 9E maintains 95 CA positions). After both were above the positions would go in seniority order with 9E being awarded way more spots than Colgan or mesaba because they populate most of the ISL in that area.

 

[veneratio]

It sounds like Bloch cannot change the award, but only interpret its application as we go forward.

Just reading the Bloch award it would appear that 9E and XJ are both below the 279:95 ratio which triggers a ratio of 279:95 down to 41 aircraft. This would leave about 200 XJ 900 captains and 68 9E 900 captains. (41 aircraft)

The big question is as the new 900's come on line how do the ratios apply?
I have a couple thoughts on this:

First: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are above those numbers which would be 57 900's. The rest of the spots would go to Colgan, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in seniority order with 9E carrying the most spots from 57-81 aircraft.


Second: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). The rest of the spots would go to XJ,9E,and Colgan in seniority order. XJ would do well up too around 350 seniority number because that's were the second group on the list would come in. 9E would then do well because they populate most of the list up to the 570 captain positions required with 81 aircraft. His reasoning could be that the 40 900's are all new aircraft that the combined group procured.

Third: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). He could then say that the new
900's are a direct substitution for 9E 200's and the 541:100 ratio will apply to the 40 additional 900's. (this option almost seems like a re-write rather than interpretation to me but I am probably biased being prior XJ)

Whats everybody think?

Are you assuming the TA will pass?

 

[mesaba13]

yeah I am.

 

[xjhawk]

the TA will pass easily. There are many FO's that are voting yes so I think it will be 70/30 pass. I think this is going to be rather complicated as we take deliveries of aircraft and as the hiring starts (other than Delta) more captains should leave. Then in 2014, that first year delta hires should see at least 100 Xj captains leave and about 1/2 of those will be on the 900. That and there will be plenty of 9E captains taken the first year of Delta hiring and I am sure many will go elsewhere too. AS I said, it should get interesting.

Now for the big guess, where will these 900's be based? I bet NYC.

 

[jynxyjericho]

the TA will pass easily. There are many FO's that are voting yes so I think it will be 70/30 pass. I think this is going to be rather complicated as we take deliveries of aircraft and as the hiring starts (other than Delta) more captains should leave. Then in 2014, that first year delta hires should see at least 100 Xj captains leave and about 1/2 of those will be on the 900. That and there will be plenty of 9E captains taken the first year of Delta hiring and I am sure many will go elsewhere too. AS I said, it should get interesting.

Now for the big guess, where will these 900's be based? I bet NYC.

Everyone loves NYC.

 

[big shacks]

I'm voting yes because we will be wholly owned

 

[jynxyjericho]

I'm voting yes because we will be wholly owned

Lol. I've been wholly owned, wasn't any fun unless you count the Northwest part. Maybe when they give all our airplanes to blowJets they'll let us work at the refinery, probably better pay.

Vote yes because you look at all the information and conclude it is right for you. Being wholly owned puts you in line to be the next Comair at worst, ASA at best. Either run into the ground or sold, Delta won't be keeping us for long.