Blochs interpretation

[mesaba13]

It sounds like Bloch cannot change the award, but only interpret its application as we go forward.

Just reading the Bloch award it would appear that 9E and XJ are both below the 279:95 ratio which triggers a ratio of 279:95 down to 41 aircraft. This would leave about 200 XJ 900 captains and 68 9E 900 captains. (41 aircraft)

The big question is as the new 900's come on line how do the ratios apply?
I have a couple thoughts on this:

First: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are above those numbers which would be 57 900's. The rest of the spots would go to Colgan, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in seniority order with 9E carrying the most spots from 57-81 aircraft.


Second: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). The rest of the spots would go to XJ,9E,and Colgan in seniority order. XJ would do well up too around 350 seniority number because that's were the second group on the list would come in. 9E would then do well because they populate most of the list up to the 570 captain positions required with 81 aircraft. His reasoning could be that the 40 900's are all new aircraft that the combined group procured.

Third: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). He could then say that the new
900's are a direct substitution for 9E 200's and the 541:100 ratio will apply to the 40 additional 900's. (this option almost seems like a re-write rather than interpretation to me but I am probably biased being prior XJ)

Whats everybody think?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I think, correction, I know I want a new job.

 

[RJLoser]

I think, correction, I know I want a new job.

This is my interpretation of Bloch's award as well.

 

[Flyer1015]

Bloch doesn't care. He's laughing all the way to the bank. Thank you for hiring his services. If only the Colgan tards could have gotten their heads out of their azzes with "career expectation" and just accept DOH along with Mesaba and 9E, this whole mess would have been an easier pill to swallow. Don't get me wrong, Hunta screwed things up too by demanding far too much in an unrealistic manner.

The only real winner here was the lawyer - Bloch.

 

[xjhawk]

when r the fences down? Then we have to look at what we have been told by Delta (if it was not a lie) that the majority of the 200's will leave later rather than sooner. Until 2015 it will be a slow draw down of 200's as the new 900's come on property right? Or am I mistaken? If the Block fences stay until 2015, and we have at least a few (30) 200's on property then I would be thinking that only the very senior colgan captains will hold captain after the 279/95 ratio is filled. this is going to be interesting. Almost impossible to plan anything and i sure wish I was watching from the outside instead of knee deep into a downgrade

 

[jynxyjericho]

. If only the Colgan tards could have gotten their heads out of their azzes with "career expectation" and just accept DOH along with Mesaba and 9E,

Let's be clear here. The only one of the three pilot groups sli teams wanted doh, mesaba. Stop blaming Colgan for everything. Only someone as intellectually lazy as you can keep on blaming colgan for every problem Phil and friends created.

 

[Snaab]

Let's be clear here. The only one of the three pilot groups sli teams wanted doh, mesaba. Stop blaming Colgan for everything. Only someone as intellectually lazy as you can keep on blaming colgan for every problem Phil and friends created.

Thank you! The people STILL going on about the SLI years later amaze me. No one foresaw the debacle that would be today's Pinnacle, let alone Bloch. Best part is there's nothing any one of us can do, so take solace in that, belly achers.

 

[e=mc2]

Yes, who would expect the union that has been through mergers before would have a clear and tested method to merge fellow idiots together. No better for ALPO to have all three of the groups at each others throats so that the goons can justify the theft of 1.98%, on all wages, they steal from each of your checks.

It is to much to expect that pilots will ever get that Unions are about mining dues money from memebers and nothing else.

 

[xjhawk]

yeah the way I heard it, Pinnacle wanted some sort of staple. If two out of the three groups would have agreed to a DOH, who knows what would have happened. I am not trying to live in the past, but as I make plans for the future of my career and will do it as an FO not making my mortgage payment without some serious overtime or second jobs because of the Block decision is ever present. and Snaab, guess what? its been like a year or two. Not years. even next year when I am making 36 an hour my only satisfaction will be that the fences are still up and there will be no positions for those Colgan pilots hired after me (in some cases 4-5 years) in the 900. But if I cannot get hired anywhere else, I do not think I will have the seniority to hold a captain position before the fences go down. I for sure will not hold one after the fences go down. That being said if the original XJ flows go I will be very close to holding captain even if all the 200's are gone. But we all know Delta will not hire until 2014. Oh well. Yes I am bitter and if the joke of a union called ALPA (as a representative for regionals anyways) had a merger policy in place that was fair. Heck even something that was in writing that we could know what to expect. But no-they are not about fairness and good planning-they are about false hopes and getting paid off to make more money for the mainline pilots and not having a care about the severe consequences of so many jobs being lost. Just F'ing peachy

 

[jynxyjericho]

yeah the way I heard it, Pinnacle wanted some sort of staple.

Well no need to guess the Mesaba merger guys will tell you the story and Bloch gave a pretty thorough description of what Pinnacle tried (and failed) at.

If two out of the three groups would have agreed to a DOH, who knows what would have happened. I am not trying to live in the past, but as I make plans for the future of my career and will do it as an FO not making my mortgage payment without some serious overtime or second jobs because of the Block decision is ever present. and Snaab, guess what? its been like a year or two. Not years. even next year when I am making 36 an hour my only satisfaction will be that the fences are still up and there will be no positions for those Colgan pilots hired after me (in some cases 4-5 years) in the 900. But if I cannot get hired anywhere else, I do not think I will have the seniority to hold a captain position before the fences go down. I for sure will not hold one after the fences go down. That being said if the original XJ flows go I will be very close to holding captain even if all the 200's are gone. But we all know Delta will not hire until 2014. Oh well. Yes I am bitter and if the joke of a union called ALPA (as a representative for regionals anyways) had a merger policy in place that was fair. Heck even something that was in writing that we could know what to expect. But no-they are not about fairness and good planning-they are about false hopes and getting paid off to make more money for the mainline pilots and not having a care about the severe consequences of so many jobs being lost. Just F'ing peachy

There is a long document governing a merger process called Mckatskill-Bond (spelling?)and it's public knowledge. Also, if you ask the merger groups they will tell you the pre approved methods ALPA will allow the arbitrator to use, and I believe that is in the Bloch document as well. It's 3 or 4 different methods, one is DOH, ratio or weighted is another. The merger committee... well the Mesaba one anyhow, put together a argument using 20 years of merger precendence (and it's problems) describing the benefits for our pilot group in a DOH with fences. Stapling wasn't allowed so Hunter had to come up with the convoluted staple job that failed and Bloch said was unnessiarily punishing (paraphrasing) toward the other pilot groups.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Call up your guys.

 

[sinkrate]

It sounds like Bloch cannot change the award, but only interpret its application as we go forward.

Just reading the Bloch award it would appear that 9E and XJ are both below the 279:95 ratio which triggers a ratio of 279:95 down to 41 aircraft. This would leave about 200 XJ 900 captains and 68 9E 900 captains. (41 aircraft)

The big question is as the new 900's come on line how do the ratios apply?
I have a couple thoughts on this:

First: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are above those numbers which would be 57 900's. The rest of the spots would go to Colgan, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in seniority order with 9E carrying the most spots from 57-81 aircraft.


Second: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). The rest of the spots would go to XJ,9E,and Colgan in seniority order. XJ would do well up too around 350 seniority number because that's were the second group on the list would come in. 9E would then do well because they populate most of the list up to the 570 captain positions required with 81 aircraft. His reasoning could be that the 40 900's are all new aircraft that the combined group procured.

Third: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). He could then say that the new
900's are a direct substitution for 9E 200's and the 541:100 ratio will apply to the 40 additional 900's. (this option almost seems like a re-write rather than interpretation to me but I am probably biased being prior XJ)

Whats everybody think?

Read the language closely. Bloch keeps premerger pilots in the AC they brought with them.

"no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions,.......In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority."
​

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.


The 200 language is similar. Once the PCL pilots are down to 541 pilots the former Mesaba pilots can not force them out of the CA seat. As the fleet winds down 200 CA's will be all premerger PCL pilots.


Now - I don't know who is forcing this to go back to Bloch - but it isn't too hard to figure who has the most to gain by changing it.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Read the language closely. Bloch keeps premerger pilots in the AC they brought with them.

"no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions,.......In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority."
​

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.


The 200 language is similar. Once the PCL pilots are down to 541 pilots the former Mesaba pilots can not force them out of the CA seat. As the fleet winds down 200 CA's will be all premerger PCL pilots.


Now - I don't know who is forcing this to go back to Bloch - but it isn't too hard to figure who has the most to gain by changing it.

The real question is, how will everyone find a way to blame Colgan for all of this?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Read the language closely. Bloch keeps premerger pilots in the AC they brought with them.

"no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions,.......In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority." ​

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.


The 200 language is similar. Once the PCL pilots are down to 541 pilots the former Mesaba pilots can not force them out of the CA seat. As the fleet winds down 200 CA's will be all premerger PCL pilots.


Now - I don't know who is forcing this to go back to Bloch - but it isn't too hard to figure who has the most to gain by changing it.

Actually I believe that it would be reduced by a 5.41 pinnacle to 1 mesaba ratio til they are all gone. Mesaba did bring some 200s to this s---show

 

[Flyer1015]

Hopefully this will be a lesson in the future. Do not use an old lawyer and binding arbitration. All 3 groups must mutually decide on a solution. If they cant, they all operate separately until they can get their crap together. Too many careers are destroyed at the hands of one man.

 

[sinkrate]

Actually I believe that it would be reduced by a 5.41 pinnacle to 1 mesaba ratio til they are all gone. Mesaba did bring some 200s to this s---show

Pinnacle brought 16 900's to the show. By your logic pcl pilots should be entitled to 900 ca seats at a ratio of 1 to 2.79. Read the language closely. Bloch specifically did not not say that. Once premerger pcl pilots are down to 541 200 CA's no mesaba or colgan CA can displace them out of the 200. Now .... I am well aware that legal language rarely 'means' what it appears to say. You can always shop judges/courts to try and get a different interpretation. In this case at least one of the pilot groups wants a different interpretation. Will they get one? Will Bloch reward them or punish them?

 

[gojo]

Pinnacle brought 16 900's to the show. By your logic pcl pilots should be entitled to 900 ca seats at a ratio of 1 to 2.79. Read the language closely. Bloch specifically did not not say that. Once premerger pcl pilots are down to 541 200 CA's no mesaba or colgan CA can displace them out of the 200. Now .... I am well aware that legal language rarely 'means' what it appears to say. You can always shop judges/courts to try and get a different interpretation. In this case at least one of the pilot groups wants a different interpretation. Will they get one? Will Bloch reward them or punish them?

I don't have the award in front of me, but wasn't there a specific number of captains awarded for the Mesaba 200's?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes it was 100 for the Mesaba quota

 

[jynxyjericho]

Bloch will first go back to the guy who wrote the fence language, he will say what he meant. That's step one anyway.

 

[DoinTime]

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.

Not really. The 95 (or thereabouts) PCL -900 protected CA positions don't go away as the aircraft leave so as additional -900s are delivered later this year, all of those positions will go to PCL pilots so long as PCL is below 95 and XJ is at or above their 279. Because staffing was so bloated on the 900 at both XJ and PCL premerger, there are currently 374 protected CA seats with a projection that only 405 seats will ever be available with the full fleet that is planned. Only the last few deliveries will go by straight seniority and premerger PCL pilots dominate that section of the seniority list. The sun will be setting on the Bloch award by the time the XJ flow throughs are all gone.

All of this could change though if Bloch finds that the new -900s are being brought in because of the parking of CRJ 200s. Seems like a no brainer to me. An old deep south flight attendant once taught me that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[xjhawk]

here is what I will do. I will read a lot about this subject, then listen to what my union tells me has happened in the past and what they will think will happen now. It will be handed over to Block and in the end it will make no sense to his decision and I will end up even more screwed than the last time a Block decision came out.

Thats just what I am expecting.