Blochs interpretation

[mesaba13]

It sounds like Bloch cannot change the award, but only interpret its application as we go forward.

Just reading the Bloch award it would appear that 9E and XJ are both below the 279:95 ratio which triggers a ratio of 279:95 down to 41 aircraft. This would leave about 200 XJ 900 captains and 68 9E 900 captains. (41 aircraft)

The big question is as the new 900's come on line how do the ratios apply?
I have a couple thoughts on this:

First: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are above those numbers which would be 57 900's. The rest of the spots would go to Colgan, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in seniority order with 9E carrying the most spots from 57-81 aircraft.


Second: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). The rest of the spots would go to XJ,9E,and Colgan in seniority order. XJ would do well up too around 350 seniority number because that's were the second group on the list would come in. 9E would then do well because they populate most of the list up to the 570 captain positions required with 81 aircraft. His reasoning could be that the 40 900's are all new aircraft that the combined group procured.

Third: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). He could then say that the new
900's are a direct substitution for 9E 200's and the 541:100 ratio will apply to the 40 additional 900's. (this option almost seems like a re-write rather than interpretation to me but I am probably biased being prior XJ)

Whats everybody think?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

I think, correction, I know I want a new job.

 

[RJLoser]

I think, correction, I know I want a new job.

This is my interpretation of Bloch's award as well.

 

[Flyer1015]

Bloch doesn't care. He's laughing all the way to the bank. Thank you for hiring his services. If only the Colgan tards could have gotten their heads out of their azzes with "career expectation" and just accept DOH along with Mesaba and 9E, this whole mess would have been an easier pill to swallow. Don't get me wrong, Hunta screwed things up too by demanding far too much in an unrealistic manner.

The only real winner here was the lawyer - Bloch.

 

[xjhawk]

when r the fences down? Then we have to look at what we have been told by Delta (if it was not a lie) that the majority of the 200's will leave later rather than sooner. Until 2015 it will be a slow draw down of 200's as the new 900's come on property right? Or am I mistaken? If the Block fences stay until 2015, and we have at least a few (30) 200's on property then I would be thinking that only the very senior colgan captains will hold captain after the 279/95 ratio is filled. this is going to be interesting. Almost impossible to plan anything and i sure wish I was watching from the outside instead of knee deep into a downgrade

 

[jynxyjericho]

. If only the Colgan tards could have gotten their heads out of their azzes with "career expectation" and just accept DOH along with Mesaba and 9E,

Let's be clear here. The only one of the three pilot groups sli teams wanted doh, mesaba. Stop blaming Colgan for everything. Only someone as intellectually lazy as you can keep on blaming colgan for every problem Phil and friends created.

 

[Snaab]

Let's be clear here. The only one of the three pilot groups sli teams wanted doh, mesaba. Stop blaming Colgan for everything. Only someone as intellectually lazy as you can keep on blaming colgan for every problem Phil and friends created.

Thank you! The people STILL going on about the SLI years later amaze me. No one foresaw the debacle that would be today's Pinnacle, let alone Bloch. Best part is there's nothing any one of us can do, so take solace in that, belly achers.

 

[e=mc2]

Yes, who would expect the union that has been through mergers before would have a clear and tested method to merge fellow idiots together. No better for ALPO to have all three of the groups at each others throats so that the goons can justify the theft of 1.98%, on all wages, they steal from each of your checks.

It is to much to expect that pilots will ever get that Unions are about mining dues money from memebers and nothing else.

 

[xjhawk]

yeah the way I heard it, Pinnacle wanted some sort of staple. If two out of the three groups would have agreed to a DOH, who knows what would have happened. I am not trying to live in the past, but as I make plans for the future of my career and will do it as an FO not making my mortgage payment without some serious overtime or second jobs because of the Block decision is ever present. and Snaab, guess what? its been like a year or two. Not years. even next year when I am making 36 an hour my only satisfaction will be that the fences are still up and there will be no positions for those Colgan pilots hired after me (in some cases 4-5 years) in the 900. But if I cannot get hired anywhere else, I do not think I will have the seniority to hold a captain position before the fences go down. I for sure will not hold one after the fences go down. That being said if the original XJ flows go I will be very close to holding captain even if all the 200's are gone. But we all know Delta will not hire until 2014. Oh well. Yes I am bitter and if the joke of a union called ALPA (as a representative for regionals anyways) had a merger policy in place that was fair. Heck even something that was in writing that we could know what to expect. But no-they are not about fairness and good planning-they are about false hopes and getting paid off to make more money for the mainline pilots and not having a care about the severe consequences of so many jobs being lost. Just F'ing peachy

 

[jynxyjericho]

yeah the way I heard it, Pinnacle wanted some sort of staple.

Well no need to guess the Mesaba merger guys will tell you the story and Bloch gave a pretty thorough description of what Pinnacle tried (and failed) at.

If two out of the three groups would have agreed to a DOH, who knows what would have happened. I am not trying to live in the past, but as I make plans for the future of my career and will do it as an FO not making my mortgage payment without some serious overtime or second jobs because of the Block decision is ever present. and Snaab, guess what? its been like a year or two. Not years. even next year when I am making 36 an hour my only satisfaction will be that the fences are still up and there will be no positions for those Colgan pilots hired after me (in some cases 4-5 years) in the 900. But if I cannot get hired anywhere else, I do not think I will have the seniority to hold a captain position before the fences go down. I for sure will not hold one after the fences go down. That being said if the original XJ flows go I will be very close to holding captain even if all the 200's are gone. But we all know Delta will not hire until 2014. Oh well. Yes I am bitter and if the joke of a union called ALPA (as a representative for regionals anyways) had a merger policy in place that was fair. Heck even something that was in writing that we could know what to expect. But no-they are not about fairness and good planning-they are about false hopes and getting paid off to make more money for the mainline pilots and not having a care about the severe consequences of so many jobs being lost. Just F'ing peachy

There is a long document governing a merger process called Mckatskill-Bond (spelling?)and it's public knowledge. Also, if you ask the merger groups they will tell you the pre approved methods ALPA will allow the arbitrator to use, and I believe that is in the Bloch document as well. It's 3 or 4 different methods, one is DOH, ratio or weighted is another. The merger committee... well the Mesaba one anyhow, put together a argument using 20 years of merger precendence (and it's problems) describing the benefits for our pilot group in a DOH with fences. Stapling wasn't allowed so Hunter had to come up with the convoluted staple job that failed and Bloch said was unnessiarily punishing (paraphrasing) toward the other pilot groups.

Anyway, I'm rambling. Call up your guys.

 

[sinkrate]

It sounds like Bloch cannot change the award, but only interpret its application as we go forward.

Just reading the Bloch award it would appear that 9E and XJ are both below the 279:95 ratio which triggers a ratio of 279:95 down to 41 aircraft. This would leave about 200 XJ 900 captains and 68 9E 900 captains. (41 aircraft)

The big question is as the new 900's come on line how do the ratios apply?
I have a couple thoughts on this:

First: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are above those numbers which would be 57 900's. The rest of the spots would go to Colgan, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in seniority order with 9E carrying the most spots from 57-81 aircraft.


Second: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). The rest of the spots would go to XJ,9E,and Colgan in seniority order. XJ would do well up too around 350 seniority number because that's were the second group on the list would come in. 9E would then do well because they populate most of the list up to the 570 captain positions required with 81 aircraft. His reasoning could be that the 40 900's are all new aircraft that the combined group procured.

Third: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). He could then say that the new
900's are a direct substitution for 9E 200's and the 541:100 ratio will apply to the 40 additional 900's. (this option almost seems like a re-write rather than interpretation to me but I am probably biased being prior XJ)

Whats everybody think?

Read the language closely. Bloch keeps premerger pilots in the AC they brought with them.

"no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions,.......In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority."
​

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.


The 200 language is similar. Once the PCL pilots are down to 541 pilots the former Mesaba pilots can not force them out of the CA seat. As the fleet winds down 200 CA's will be all premerger PCL pilots.


Now - I don't know who is forcing this to go back to Bloch - but it isn't too hard to figure who has the most to gain by changing it.

 

[jynxyjericho]

Read the language closely. Bloch keeps premerger pilots in the AC they brought with them.

"no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions,.......In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority."
​

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.


The 200 language is similar. Once the PCL pilots are down to 541 pilots the former Mesaba pilots can not force them out of the CA seat. As the fleet winds down 200 CA's will be all premerger PCL pilots.


Now - I don't know who is forcing this to go back to Bloch - but it isn't too hard to figure who has the most to gain by changing it.

The real question is, how will everyone find a way to blame Colgan for all of this?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Read the language closely. Bloch keeps premerger pilots in the AC they brought with them.

"no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain positions,.......In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279 and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900 captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance with system seniority." ​

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.


The 200 language is similar. Once the PCL pilots are down to 541 pilots the former Mesaba pilots can not force them out of the CA seat. As the fleet winds down 200 CA's will be all premerger PCL pilots.


Now - I don't know who is forcing this to go back to Bloch - but it isn't too hard to figure who has the most to gain by changing it.

Actually I believe that it would be reduced by a 5.41 pinnacle to 1 mesaba ratio til they are all gone. Mesaba did bring some 200s to this s---show

 

[Flyer1015]

Hopefully this will be a lesson in the future. Do not use an old lawyer and binding arbitration. All 3 groups must mutually decide on a solution. If they cant, they all operate separately until they can get their crap together. Too many careers are destroyed at the hands of one man.

 

[sinkrate]

Actually I believe that it would be reduced by a 5.41 pinnacle to 1 mesaba ratio til they are all gone. Mesaba did bring some 200s to this s---show

Pinnacle brought 16 900's to the show. By your logic pcl pilots should be entitled to 900 ca seats at a ratio of 1 to 2.79. Read the language closely. Bloch specifically did not not say that. Once premerger pcl pilots are down to 541 200 CA's no mesaba or colgan CA can displace them out of the 200. Now .... I am well aware that legal language rarely 'means' what it appears to say. You can always shop judges/courts to try and get a different interpretation. In this case at least one of the pilot groups wants a different interpretation. Will they get one? Will Bloch reward them or punish them?

 

[gojo]

Pinnacle brought 16 900's to the show. By your logic pcl pilots should be entitled to 900 ca seats at a ratio of 1 to 2.79. Read the language closely. Bloch specifically did not not say that. Once premerger pcl pilots are down to 541 200 CA's no mesaba or colgan CA can displace them out of the 200. Now .... I am well aware that legal language rarely 'means' what it appears to say. You can always shop judges/courts to try and get a different interpretation. In this case at least one of the pilot groups wants a different interpretation. Will they get one? Will Bloch reward them or punish them?

I don't have the award in front of me, but wasn't there a specific number of captains awarded for the Mesaba 200's?

 

[WMUSIGPI]

Yes it was 100 for the Mesaba quota

 

[jynxyjericho]

Bloch will first go back to the guy who wrote the fence language, he will say what he meant. That's step one anyway.

 

[DoinTime]

When the PCL 900 operation in ATL is shut down the premerger pcl pilots will not be able displace former mesaba pilots off the 900's. Mesaba pilots will end up with all 279 CA slots on the 900. The PCL pilots will go the 200 forcing the 100 or so junior 200 CA's to FO. Most of those are mesaba with a few Colgan guys. As long as the Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CA seats when the new 900's arrive they will be awarded on straight seniority. For the first 20 or so deliverys expect those to go to PCL pilots. As Mesaba pilots flow to Delta those vacancies will go to premerger Mesaba pilots.

Not really. The 95 (or thereabouts) PCL -900 protected CA positions don't go away as the aircraft leave so as additional -900s are delivered later this year, all of those positions will go to PCL pilots so long as PCL is below 95 and XJ is at or above their 279. Because staffing was so bloated on the 900 at both XJ and PCL premerger, there are currently 374 protected CA seats with a projection that only 405 seats will ever be available with the full fleet that is planned. Only the last few deliveries will go by straight seniority and premerger PCL pilots dominate that section of the seniority list. The sun will be setting on the Bloch award by the time the XJ flow throughs are all gone.

All of this could change though if Bloch finds that the new -900s are being brought in because of the parking of CRJ 200s. Seems like a no brainer to me. An old deep south flight attendant once taught me that if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

 

[xjhawk]

here is what I will do. I will read a lot about this subject, then listen to what my union tells me has happened in the past and what they will think will happen now. It will be handed over to Block and in the end it will make no sense to his decision and I will end up even more screwed than the last time a Block decision came out.

Thats just what I am expecting.

 

[sinkrate]

Read the language closely. Neither premerger group can displace the other group out of a CA seat once they are at their protected number. Look where the current CA's are. When the ATL operation is closed the premerger pcl 900 CA's cannot displace premerger mesaba CA's below their protected number. When The MSP 200 operation is wound down the premerger mesaba 200 CA's will not be able to displace premerger pcl CA's. Once a position starts expanding again all the CA awards will go the group that is below their awarded number. The 200 will never expand.


Now - if all you are worried about is the initial displacement out of ATL the premerger mesaba pilots will keep 100 CA seats on that award. Premerger pcl pilots will keep 541 200 CA seats on that award. It is mostly colgan pilots that will be displaed to FO. Once the new order 900's start arriving all those CA seats will go to premerger PCL pilots until they have 95 awarded. And as doin time said - after that they go in straight seniority.

My suspicion is some one is challenging what 'awarded' means in this language. These paragraphs use both 'awarded' and 'displaced' so it is clear the original author knew the difference.

Should some one succeed in changing that then the ATL pcl 900 CA's will be able to displace mesaba 900 CA's elsewhere in the system.





4.

For a period of five years beginning with submission of the

integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or Colgan
pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain
position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 279 CRJ-900 captain​

positions, and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot may be

awarded or displaced to a CRJ-900 captain position unless
Pinnacle pilots maintain 95 CRJ-900 captain positions. In
the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have less than 279
and 95 CRJ-900 captain positions, respectively, CRJ-900
captain positions shall be awarded on a ratio of 279 Mesaba
pilots to 95 Pinnacle pilots until either Mesaba or Pinnacle
reaches their minimum. Remaining vacant positions will be​

awarded in accordance with system seniority.

5. ​

​

For a period of five years, beginning with the submission of

the integrated seniority list, no pre-merger Pinnacle or
Colgan pilot may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200
captain position unless Mesaba pilots maintain 100 CRJ-200
captain positions and no pre-merger Mesaba or Colgan pilot
may be awarded or displaced to a CRJ-200 captain position
unless Pinnacle pilots maintain 541 CRJ-200 captain
positions. In the event both Mesaba and Pinnacle pilots have
less than 100 and 541 CRJ-200 captain positions
respectively, CRJ-200 captain positions shall be awarded on
a ratio of 100 Mesaba pilots to 541 Pinnacle pilots until
either Mesaba or Pinnacle pilots reach their minimum.
Remaining vacant positions will be awarded in accordance
with system seniority under the ISL.​

​

 

[mesaba13]

Thanks for posting the language. It looks clear that Mesaba has to preserve 279 and 9E has to preserve 95 CRJ900 captain positions. So as ATL goes away the 9E number will drastically shrink and therefore no Mesaba pilot will be able to go into a new 900 until 9E gets above their ratio, which would seem to take around 16 aircraft deliveries. Which is the number of a/c 9E started with and thus generated the 95 spots. After that it would seem seniority would take over and in that portion of the list 9E will come out with more spots because they dominate the ISL in that area (ISL #356-#520).

With all aircraft delivered Mesaba would have 279+15=294 and 9E would have 95+102=197 and Colgan would have around 30 spots. This total would be around 520 Captain positions.

Regardless of the direction Bloch gives a month from now these numbers will be what the company looks like once the fences are down because of the very way the ISL was created. If the company survives until the fences are down.

 

[higney85]

Not arguing either side but nobody seems to put the difference of "positions" and airframes together. The award only deals with positions, not airframe ownership at the merger.

The reason the ATL birds left is simple, it was the only asset we had worth anything to delta. All the -200's and the XJ -900's had leases paid by DL already. The ATL birds were actually paid for by pinnacle, so they were taken as part of the dip financing deal.

Don't confuse airframes with seat ownership, this brings us back to issue #1 when we will have fewer 900 seats than the total of both quota numbers. This issue wasn't a problem as the XJ -200's crossed the fence and are now "unfenced 9E" birds since the total quota number had no impact in relation total seats.

 

[mesaba13]

I agree that pre-merger airframes do not matter post Bloch award. It seems like Bloch accounted for a shrinking fleet by stating 279 and 95 seats must be maintained for 5 years. As ATL shrinks those 9E Captains will not be able to displace any XJ premerger 900 Captains because XJ is below 279. (no premerger 9E pilot can be awarded or displaced to a 900 CA position unless XJ maintains 279 CA positions) This would have worked the same way if MEM was closed instead of ATL in that an XJ MEM CA would not be able to displace any 9E captain because 9E is below 95.

Blochs award also seems to also cover fleet growth. As aircraft are delivered the awards would go 279:95 until one pre-merger group reaches either 279 or 95, respectively. XJ would reach 279 quickly because they are not many below 279. As soon as XJ reaches 279 then 9E would get every 900 CA spot until they hit 95. (no premerger XJ pilot can be awarded or displaced to a 900 CA position unless 9E maintains 95 CA positions). After both were above the positions would go in seniority order with 9E being awarded way more spots than Colgan or mesaba because they populate most of the ISL in that area.

 

[veneratio]

It sounds like Bloch cannot change the award, but only interpret its application as we go forward.

Just reading the Bloch award it would appear that 9E and XJ are both below the 279:95 ratio which triggers a ratio of 279:95 down to 41 aircraft. This would leave about 200 XJ 900 captains and 68 9E 900 captains. (41 aircraft)

The big question is as the new 900's come on line how do the ratios apply?
I have a couple thoughts on this:

First: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are above those numbers which would be 57 900's. The rest of the spots would go to Colgan, Pinnacle, and Mesaba in seniority order with 9E carrying the most spots from 57-81 aircraft.


Second: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). The rest of the spots would go to XJ,9E,and Colgan in seniority order. XJ would do well up too around 350 seniority number because that's were the second group on the list would come in. 9E would then do well because they populate most of the list up to the 570 captain positions required with 81 aircraft. His reasoning could be that the 40 900's are all new aircraft that the combined group procured.

Third: he could direct that as the award states 279:95 applies until both XJ and 9E are down to 200:68 (41 aircraft). He could then say that the new
900's are a direct substitution for 9E 200's and the 541:100 ratio will apply to the 40 additional 900's. (this option almost seems like a re-write rather than interpretation to me but I am probably biased being prior XJ)

Whats everybody think?

Are you assuming the TA will pass?

 

[mesaba13]

yeah I am.

 

[xjhawk]

the TA will pass easily. There are many FO's that are voting yes so I think it will be 70/30 pass. I think this is going to be rather complicated as we take deliveries of aircraft and as the hiring starts (other than Delta) more captains should leave. Then in 2014, that first year delta hires should see at least 100 Xj captains leave and about 1/2 of those will be on the 900. That and there will be plenty of 9E captains taken the first year of Delta hiring and I am sure many will go elsewhere too. AS I said, it should get interesting.

Now for the big guess, where will these 900's be based? I bet NYC.

 

[jynxyjericho]

the TA will pass easily. There are many FO's that are voting yes so I think it will be 70/30 pass. I think this is going to be rather complicated as we take deliveries of aircraft and as the hiring starts (other than Delta) more captains should leave. Then in 2014, that first year delta hires should see at least 100 Xj captains leave and about 1/2 of those will be on the 900. That and there will be plenty of 9E captains taken the first year of Delta hiring and I am sure many will go elsewhere too. AS I said, it should get interesting.

Now for the big guess, where will these 900's be based? I bet NYC.

Everyone loves NYC.

 

[big shacks]

I'm voting yes because we will be wholly owned

 

[jynxyjericho]

I'm voting yes because we will be wholly owned

Lol. I've been wholly owned, wasn't any fun unless you count the Northwest part. Maybe when they give all our airplanes to blowJets they'll let us work at the refinery, probably better pay.

Vote yes because you look at all the information and conclude it is right for you. Being wholly owned puts you in line to be the next Comair at worst, ASA at best. Either run into the ground or sold, Delta won't be keeping us for long.