Best zero time to regional route

[PBRstreetgang]

I love it when pilots drop a steamer on the entire profession just because they're miserable. If it's so bad quit. And by the way, if you want to enjoy your aviation career don't go to the regionals at all. Lots of other ways to earn a buck.

Since you have never flown at the airlines, you might not be qualified to opine. The aviation industry has historically taken far more than it's given. I know plenty of dead pilots who were just trying to get a start in the industry and died because the plane was poorly maintained. Ask any CFI if their flight school planes were well maintained, Freight Dog if that piston dog house was cherry, or any number of other entry level jobs. Ask the families of 3407 if they think that it was ok to have a captain with multiple checkride failures running the show. This industry is neither nice nor friendly, just like most others.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

Since you have never flown at the airlines, you might not be qualified to opine. The aviation industry has historically taken far more than it's given. I know plenty of dead pilots who were just trying to get a start in the industry and died because the plane was poorly maintained. Ask any CFI if their flight school planes were well maintained, Freight Dog if that piston dog house was cherry, or any number of other entry level jobs. Ask the families of 3407 if they think that it was ok to have a captain with multiple checkride failures running the show. This industry is neither nice nor friendly, just like most others.

I need only to visit the regional page of FI to know that the vast majority of regional pilots are miserable. I did instruct and the mx was at times questionable. Same thing when I flew checks in 310's and barons. I too have lost friends. I didn't take these jobs thinking that aviation is a safe way to earn a living. Anyone who does clearly doesn't watch the news. I fail to see your point.

If I took the advice of the people on this board I would have missed out on a very rewarding and lucrative career.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

I need only to visit the regional page of FI to know that the vast majority of regional pilots are miserable. I did instruct and the mx was at times questionable. Same thing when I flew checks in 310's and barons. I too have lost friends. I didn't take these jobs thinking that aviation is a safe way to earn a living. Anyone who does clearly doesn't watch the news. I fail to see your point.

If I took the advice of the people on this board I would have missed out on a very rewarding and lucrative career.

You came out the other side, congrats! On the other side you are just an economic downturn away from being unemployed. Friend of mine was flying a Citation, sweet job, 100K a year, is now swinging gear in a CRJ. Its rewarding and lucrative right up until the floor drops out. Aircraft operators with ethics are like the Unicorn, most are dung eating rodents with mange, SWA, UAL, DAL, UPS, FDX are included. If you think you are immune, I will say good luck, it sucks to be unemployed at 45-50-55, if you aren't prepared, well......My point is this industry isn't safe nor friendly, as far as the Regional industry, many employed in the industry weren't prepared for the financial hardships, 65-100K in training costs only to get a job that pays very little even at 2nd or 3rd year CRJ pay at SKYW means 37.00 x 75 very little cash to pay the student loan interest, much less principal and live in anything other than a large refrigerator box under a bridge.

 

[IBNAV8R]

You can't paint a picture of an industry from a board comprised largely of whiners.

There are those that will make the best of any situation they are in. Then there are those who will never be happy anywhere. If you want to fly, do it. Just keep in mind the sacrifices and the payoff. The sacrifices are great and the payoff, even at the majors, "ain't what it used to be."

If you're doing it for pay, prestige, travel benefits, time-off and hot flight attendants, you're likely going to be disappointed.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

You came out the other side, congrats! On the other side you are just an economic downturn away from being unemployed. Friend of mine was flying a Citation, sweet job, 100K a year, is now swinging gear in a CRJ. Its rewarding and lucrative right up until the floor drops out. Aircraft operators with ethics are like the Unicorn, most are dung eating rodents with mange, SWA, UAL, DAL, UPS, FDX are included. If you think you are immune, I will say good luck, it sucks to be unemployed at 45-50-55, if you aren't prepared, well......My point is this industry isn't safe nor friendly, as far as the Regional industry, many employed in the industry weren't prepared for the financial hardships, 65-100K in training costs only to get a job that pays very little even at 2nd or 3rd year CRJ pay at SKYW means 37.00 x 75 very little cash to pay the student loan interest, much less principal and live in anything other than a large refrigerator box under a bridge.

I don't recall saying I was immune. I'm vulnerable just like every other employee aviation or not. I can't control that. What I can control is my personal finances and networking status. My hope is that when the tides turn I will be able to make a lateral move to another department. Time will tell.

You and I are not so different. I've watched the PSA vote with great interest. I was foolish enough to think the NO's would win out for once. MY point is that there are still good jobs with good pay and QOL out there. If you want to fly for a living it can still be done. I personally don't think that the regionals are the place to do it.

I recently heard something that I think is worth passing on. A colleague was talking about his daughter trying to decide what she wants to do after high school. He told her that she could do anything she wanted as long as she was willing to devote every waking moment to it. If you want to be the rich SOB riding in the back of the private jet it can still be done. The govt, gender, education aside there are still opportunities in this country if one is willing to work hard enough to achieve them. Hard work is still recognized.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

My point is and was this is a very tough and unforgiving industry, anybody who thinks its hugs, rainbows and puppy dog tails may be in for a rude surprise. While, there is lots of whining here, most if not all of it has a basis in reality.
If you miss the timing bubble and get on on the wrong side of the hiring wave, you could spend decades trying to claw your way out of the toilet, ask any UAL triple furlough.

 

[PBRstreetgang]

still opportunities in this country if one is willing to work hard enough to achieve them. Hard work is still recognized.

While I agree, the timing variable cannot be discounted. Any pilot hired 5-10 years from now will spend the majority of their career in the right seat and on reserve. The average airline pilot is 48, today, that means that a good chunk of the seniority lists are younger and will fill the retires shoes, for a long time.

 

[pilotyip]

If you're doing it for pay, prestige, travel benefits, time-off and hot flight attendants, you're likely going to be disappointed.

Now where have I seen something like before?

My career has been anything but a success by many's definitions. I have had 11 jobs since leaving the Navy in 1977. But I am coming out of this in good financial condition and I have had a ball in this adventure.

Would change little, so when I see people winning I wonder why they are in this career.

 

[BGSkyGuy]

While I agree, the timing variable cannot be discounted. Any pilot hired 5-10 years from now will spend the majority of their career in the right seat and on reserve.

Sounds like a good reason to consider skipping the regionals and going 135 to 91.

 

[Gulf-front]

Lousy advice and quite impractical. Flying consumes too much of your life to develop anything else worthwhile. You can have an expensive hobby that you think is a side business, but you'll end up hiring too many people to look after the business when you are away and they will invariably rip you off because they can. You end up dependent on them as much as you would your primary job.

Choose flying if you (and anyone you plan to spend your life with) are OK with making the rest of the interests in your life a distant second. Your career will never "owe you" anything, because it cannot and will not ever pay you back. A great landing has to be worth more to you than watching a child in a school play. You'll tuck your flight kit in behind you seat more times than you'll tuck your little ones in bed. Eating Thanksgiving dinner at the gas station across from the hotel in Atlanta or texting "Merry Christmas" before you push back for a 30 hour overnight in Guadalajara will have to be okay with the family because you chose that for you and for them. And after the water cannons stop on your last flight, don't let the fact that those same kids aren't all that interested in calling the man they never really got to know. Maybe they'll text you a "Merry Christmas".

Amen brother!
Young guys don't get it! You one day will want and have a family! If I could, I would do it different. Four airlines later... Not worth it! Good luck to you all. Just remember an airplane will not love you back!

 

[LearLove]

With the 1500 hour rule now in effect, what is the best way for someone with zero time to get the minimums to apply at a regional? I am not asking if it should be done, but if it had to be done, what is the best option.

If your friends last name is Hilton or Kennedy then I would suggest plopping down a load of cash at ALLATP's or the like.

Otherwise if he/she is like the rest of us (middle class America) then:

1. military (although that has its pitfalls)
2. Get a CFI and start flying his/her butt off.

In reality it shouldn't take that long. Remember there was a time not too long ago when you needed 1500-2000tt to get on with a commuter. In the post 911 major outsourcing environment we are used to 500tt hiring but many of us that were hired pre 911 had over 1500tt back then.

I graduated from college in June 1997 (non aviation degree) but I had all my ratings (COMM, MEL and CFI) with 300 tt. By August of 1999 I had 1900tt and an ATP when I was hired at a Dash8 commuter.

From June of 1997 to Aug of 99 I had 4 flying jobs at the same time. I CFI'd at a military flying club on the weekends, flew traffic on Monday and Friday, flew right seat in a Navajo on Tue/Wed/Thurs and instructed in the evenings at a regular flight school.

I just put my head down and banged the hours out - most weeks flying all 7 days. BTW the year (98-99) I spent as a 135 Navajo pic was probably the best learning exp. of my career.

Unfortunately for you guys today there aren't many 135 gigs willing to cut you loose at 1200tt like there were 10-20 years ago. Mainly because the canceled check flying went away plus insurance in the post 911 aviation community went way up for low time guys. You'll have to get your MEL pic by instructing.

 

[pilotyip]

Amen brother!
Young guys don't get it! You one day will want and have a family! If I could, I would do it different. Four airlines later... Not worth it! Good luck to you all. Just remember an airplane will not love you back!

In 1982 after three flying jobs I found myself unemployed at age 39, back when that was almost too old to get an airline flying job. I decided to get out of the aviation profession and start my own business. But after 5 years it was a job that I had to work at. it was not the life I was happy in. I went back into aviation and as stated above I have had a ball. Stayed married to the same great gal, raised a family and I haven't work at day since going back into aviation because I am doing what I want to do. It has loved me back.

 

[livin'thesim]

I need only to visit the regional page of FI to know that the vast majority of regional pilots are miserable. I did instruct and the mx was at times questionable. Same thing when I flew checks in 310's and barons. I too have lost friends. I didn't take these jobs thinking that aviation is a safe way to earn a living. Anyone who does clearly doesn't watch the news. I fail to see your point.

If I took the advice of the people on this board I would have missed out on a very rewarding and lucrative career.

Vast majority? Statistics much?

I guess you are confident that the "vast majority" of regional pilots comment on FI.

 

[acpilot]

The best known method:

1. Go get a professional graduate level degree in an industry that isn't consumed by unions. Think engineering, medicine, or law. A solid business education, including graduate school, will also work.
2. Payoff your debt and live within your means.
3. Get a PPL and instrument rating.
4. Buy a nice plane and hang out at the local airport.
5. Maybe get a commercial cert for kicks.

This can be accomplished by an 18 year old before they turn 30. Under no circumstances should a professional flying career enter the into equation.

 

[Clutch]

The best known method:

1. Go get a professional graduate level degree in an industry that isn't consumed by unions. Think engineering, medicine, or law. A solid business education, including graduate school, will also work.
2. Payoff your debt and live within your means.
3. Get a PPL and instrument rating.
4. Buy a nice plane and hang out at the local airport.
5. Maybe get a commercial cert for kicks.

This can be accomplished by an 18 year old before they turn 30. Under no circumstances should a professional flying career enter the equation.

That's a helluva contradiction. Great advice.

 

[acpilot]

That's a helluva contradiction. Great advice.

Anything can contradict "live within your means."

-buying a nice car
-living in a large house
-owning a boat
-having a vacation property
-taking nice vacations
-...or any other hobby requiring means.

Owning a plane of any size is a lifestyle decision. If you really want it, it's possible to own a plane and not break the bank. If you love flying GA and enjoy working on machinery, it's a no brainer.

It is good advice.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Owning a plane of any size is a lifestyle decision. If you really want it, it's possible to own a plane and not break the bank.

A single engine airplane will cost you about $600/mo on average in fixed costs which is about what a family of 4 will pay for a lower level (which is really all there is) Obamacare plan. Hence by definition that is Affordable

 

[acpilot]

Sounds about right.

...or $300 in a 50/50 partnership. Or $200 if you own a third. Run 80/87 trough an A-series, E-series, -200, -320, or -470 to keep the variale cost down, too.

Like I said, if you really want it, it's doable.

 

[LearLove]

A single engine airplane will cost you about $600/mo on average

My 152 costs me 600/month to fly 50 hours per year.

Hangar - 245
Ins - 50
Fuel 50X5X6.1/12=130
MX (annual, oil changes and msc mx) = 2000/12=170

245+50+130+170=595

 

[pilotyip]

I figure my C-172 cost me about $7,000-$8,000 a year before I fly the first hour. I instruct in mind so my insurance in much higher.

 

[paid4training]

I have my own airplane I instructed out of it for about 3 years. I racked up a lot of time and experience. But more importantly I treated my students like clients and cared about their training and it eventually led to a pretty nice part91 gig. I will be putting my little cheerokee(misspelled for a reason) up for sale so I can focus primarily on the 91 job. I sweated and prayed for the next phone call so I could pay next months payment and had several students try to kill me. Was it worth it? I think so.
Did all of this happened as I planned?? No,hell no!!! I wanted to fly 121 and thought what I am doing now would be beyond my reach. I still at times wonder if I should quit this 91 gig and go regional 121. Then I get a scheduling message about an up coming flight and I put those old dreams of regional flying back on the mental shelf. Things don't happen as u think they should, be open to all the possibilities and NEVER gripe about your current flying job within earshot of anyone other than close friends and family. You never know who's listening!!!
It's Either you love flying as a career because you think it's like PanAm or you love it because it's the coolest st!t in the world and every time you are sitting at home you can't wait for your next flight!!! That is what you need to decide, don't listen to anyone else out there. This is a job and like everything else it is not what it used to be.

 

[Bringupthebird]

Run 80/87 trough an A-series, E-series, -200, -320, or -470 to keep the variale cost down, too.

Sure if we were back in 1975. MOGAS, maybe, but the right non-ethanol flavor is scarce.

 

[Bringupthebird]

My 152 costs me 600/month to fly 50 hours per year.

Hangar - 245
Ins - 50
Fuel 50X5X6.1/12=130
MX (annual, oil changes and msc mx) = 2000/12=170

245+50+130+170=595

You left out payments. Ask who ever gave you your 152 to send me a nice Saratoga TC.

 

[LearLove]

You left out payments. Ask who ever gave you your 152 to send me a nice Saratoga TC.

No payment. I'm no genius but you gotta be a real dumbass if you take a loan out to by an airplane. Bought it in 2011 for 22k cash. My rule with toys (airplane, motorcycle, mountain bikes, skis and guns) is cash only. The only thing I owe money on is my house and it will be paid for in 6 years even at our crappy pay rates.

 

[acpilot]

Sure if we were back in 1975. MOGAS, maybe, but the right non-ethanol flavor is scarce.

No it's not. You just need to know where (and when) to find it. You corner station miggt offer it during winter months...in AZ anyway. Try the Valero and Chevron stations at Higley & McKellips.

60% of my CFI hours were earned flying planes with fuel from one of those stations. During the summer months we had to go to the station on the 87 north of the 202.

You appear to have some first-hand knowledge of the PHX area so I'm guessing that you know where these places are.

 

[airplane wizard]

No payment. I'm no genius but you gotta be a real dumbass if you take a loan out to by an airplane. Bought it in 2011 for 22k cash. My rule with toys (airplane, motorcycle, mountain bikes, skis and guns) is cash only. The only thing I owe money on is my house and it will be paid for in 6 years even at our crappy pay rates.

What's wrong with a loan for a toy? Costs you some $$ in interest but then you have the cash for a rainy day. Better than taking months to sell something if you need the cash.

 

[SplitBar]

My 152 costs me 600/month to fly 50 hours per year.

Hangar - 245
Ins - 50
Fuel 50X5X6.1/12=130
MX (annual, oil changes and msc mx) = 2000/12=170

245+50+130+170=595

Thats $144 an hour for a 152. Why not just rent for much cheaper?

 

[LearLove]

Thats $144 an hour for a 152. Why not just rent for much cheaper?

I value having my own airplane. Some people have boats, some people have shore houses ect. I have my plane and the friends/lifestyle that comes with it. It's my shore house not an spreadsheet.

 

[LearLove]

What's wrong with a loan for a toy? Costs you some $$ in interest but then you have the cash for a rainy day. Better than taking months to sell something if you need the cash.

If your OK with owing someone money then fine. I don't like that. I went down that road in my 20's and discovered it wasn't for me. I paid off my car and credit cards then put 86K in the bank (US air stock options, LOA money and j4j CA helped) before I bought my plane, house and moto. I put 20% down on my house and like I said paid cash for the rest of the toys and still had 27K in the bank at the end of 2011 (it also didn't hurt that I bought the plane and house at the bottom of the market in 2011). By the end of 2013 I should have 40k cash plus my 401K which I've dove 15% since I was 25.

I learned a lot of lessons from the guys who came before me (read 99 and 2000 hires) at mainline about managing your financial house.

 

[brokeflyer]

first, stop wanting to be a professional pilot.

then go to senator/congressman school and learn how to really fck people over.

take all the money and buy yourself all the flight time you want.