Best piece of flying in modern day was this.

[MCDU]

http://www.smartcockpit.com/data/pdfs/flightops/flyingtechnique/Baghdad_A300_Incident.pdf

 

[Limeyflyer]

I would have to agree. Al Haynes type flying there.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Amazing job. I always thought those guys didn't get enough credit for saving that ship and themselves.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Now that I think about it, weren't they a little young to know about this type of flying? I thought only guys close to retirement could do this sort of wizardry.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

The elderly did try this kind of wizardry. But the results were drastically different in Sioux City, Iowa. That DC 10 failed to understand power was required throughout the flair and they lost it on the bottom.

The Sioux City, Iowa DC10 pulled the power on the bottom starting the left bank associated with the orginial malfunction causing the aircraft to roll left and uncontrolled upon landing.

The Sioux City crew did a remarkable job up until that point and just relaxed and reverted to the normal way to land an aircraft. They did not know because they were not training in any way for the events they faced that day.

The training does exist and should be required in every Boeing sim course with academics included.

But airline would prefer to just put out another 100 page training bulletin telling you not to do something like they did after the AMR A300 JFK accident. Don't push the rudder below Va enough the aircraft was supposedly certified that way. The guaidance concerning TOC will be don't crash.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Thrust Only Control

This type of flying is called Thrust Only Control (TOC).

It has been fully developed by NASA in the early 1990's. NASA has studied every incidence of this since early multi engine flight.

NASA used a DC10 less than five years after the Sioux City, Iowa accident. In that flight study NASA used a standard DC10 with a modified SOFTWARE only change to the Mode Control Panel and the addition of one switch allowing the new 170 lines of code to take control of the autothrottles.

The modified 170 lines of code allowed the autothrottles to adjust the one and three engine as needed to control the aircraft.

The aircraft was controlled through the mode control panel in the TOC mode. It could control flight on a heading, climb or descend at a set vertical speed and rate of turn.

The modification was extensively flown during the test program to the point of landing off the bottom of an ILS.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

This NASA developed modification could be included in every wing engine mounted airframe in use today with a software modification to the autothrottle system.

The reason it is not is because of liability issues concerning past accidents.

It was reported the B787 will have this autothrottle feature incorporated.

 

[MCDU]

The elderly did try this kind of wizardry. But the results were drastically different in Sioux City, Iowa. That DC 10 failed to understand power was required throughout the flair and they lost it on the bottom.

True, the crew might have learned from that Sioux City crash not to alter flight path with reducing power during the landing phase.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

True, the crew might have learned from that Sioux City crash not to alter flight path with reducing power during the landing phase.

Overall they saved lives. If they had only been trained it would have been even better. We should all have the training.

 

[samballs]

Have always heard the pilot who came up to help has always talked bad about Als handling of the landing, is this true?

 

[Wankel7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Baghdad_DHL_attempted_shootdown_incident

Anyways, I heard this captain had heard Al Haynes speak several weeks before somebody stuffed an SA-7 under his wing....

I am sure if Al Haynes had heard Al Haynes speak before his incident...he would have had an edge.

 

[Tomct]

Have always heard the pilot who came up to help has always talked bad about Als handling of the landing, is this true?

Now the 3 different times that I have watched Air Emergencies on the NGC, each time, the "Check Airman" from the back who was the one operating the throttles NEVER said ANYTHING BAD about that landing. His statement on the approach to landing was that he looked at the VSI and saw 1500fpm and he knew he could not land with that rate of descent...so he pushed up the throttles and for the FIRST TIME the #1 engine spooled up before the #3 engine...Hence when you see the video, the left wing picks up and drags the right! As I recall, American Airlines had a DC10 with a similar problem and the ONLY reason they survived was that the Captn had just been through a PC and had asked to land with Asymetric thrust. I believe it was 1970. Al Haynes is THE MAN and their crew did an INCREDIBLE JOB getting that airplane on the ground without TOTAL LOSS OF LIFE!

 

[Tomct]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Airlines_Flight_96

Now this accident happened and they had lost "Some" hydraulic lines...NOT ALL 3 like in Sioux City. Great outcome, but they had some hydraulic help for the elevator where Sioux City they were using nothing but shere Muscle. Big Difference!

 

[Tomct]

The elderly did try this kind of wizardry. But the results were drastically different in Sioux City, Iowa. That DC 10 failed to understand power was required throughout the flair and they lost it on the bottom.

The Sioux City, Iowa DC10 pulled the power on the bottom starting the left bank associated with the orginial malfunction causing the aircraft to roll left and uncontrolled upon landing.

The Sioux City crew did a remarkable job up until that point and just relaxed and reverted to the normal way to land an aircraft. They did not know because they were not training in any way for the events they faced that day.

The training does exist and should be required in every Boeing sim course with academics included.

But airline would prefer to just put out another 100 page training bulletin telling you not to do something like they did after the AMR A300 JFK accident. Don't push the rudder below Va enough the aircraft was supposedly certified that way. The guaidance concerning TOC will be don't crash.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232#Factors_contributing_to_survival

Lucky...you sound like you are "Arm Chair Quarterbacking" this incredible piece of flying. If you read this link about their expected outcome, they were amazed (the NTSB) of Sioux City outcome, you might want to change your tone. The crew did no such thing as "relax" at the bottom of the approach. Why don't you read what the Check Airman (who was operating the throttles) said about the "bottom" of the approach. YGTBSM with your comments!

 

[Stinkbug]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232


Having read the cvr transcript I've always felt Cpt. Haynes' maintaining a sense of humor in the midst of such a terrifying situation speaks volumes about his character and command ability!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Airlines_Flight_232#Factors_contributing_to_survival

Lucky...you sound like you are "Arm Chair Quarterbacking" this incredible piece of flying. If you read this link about their expected outcome, they were amazed (the NTSB) of Sioux City outcome, you might want to change your tone. The crew did no such thing as "relax" at the bottom of the approach. Why don't you read what the Check Airman (who was operating the throttles) said about the "bottom" of the approach. YGTBSM with your comments!

My entire tone of comments is that we should all be trained in these types of maneuvers in initial and recurrent.

We should all be equipped with the autothrottle software modifications needed to control the airplane with the mode control panel in a TOC manner.

 

[luckytohaveajob]

Tomct, do you work for Boeing? Why would a company to produce a safer product knowing it can so easily be done?

Boeing is not ethically correct in much of what it does. B737 rudder mods for example!

 

[luckytohaveajob]

And another thing Tomct. Since when is Wikepedia an authoritative source. Wikepedia is not more truthful than FI.com

I have been briefed by NASA on this subject. I think NASA is a far more creditable story than Wikepedia. And according to NASA, the power was reduced on the bottom starting the inherit roll associated with the initial failure.

So if you want to go and take Wikepedia word for it go right ahead and by the way I have a bridge to sell in Arizona sucker.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Although I love Wikipedia, you have to take it with a grain of salt. I could go on there and say a green monster tore up a wing panel causing the airplane to roll.

 

[Tomct]

And another thing Tomct. Since when is Wikepedia an authoritative source. Wikepedia is not more truthful than FI.com

I have been briefed by NASA on this subject. I think NASA is a far more creditable story than Wikepedia. And according to NASA, the power was reduced on the bottom starting the inherit roll associated with the initial failure.

So if you want to go and take Wikepedia word for it go right ahead and by the way I have a bridge to sell in Arizona sucker.

Actually the first post I made was with reference to the ACTUAL STATEMENT of the Check Airman. But hey...if you work for Boeing....I'm SURE you know exactly what happened! By the way, did Boeing make the DC10? NO...didn't think so.
Plus within the information from Wikepedia, the report was from the NTSB. Ever hear of them? Maybe you should read the articles a bit more carefully.
I agree with you about the training part, would be good to know...hence the reason that I put in the link for the AA flight. Without his practice approach in the sim prior to the actual even, probably would not have turned out so good. Who know's!

 

[puck_11]

I had the privilege of hearing Al Haynes speak at my school. His story was incredible. Anyways, I remember him saying that during the investigation they had dozens of crews try to land the simulator in the same situation, and all of them crashed, none of them even coming close to actually landing the aircraft.

 

[mannyaplus11]

NASA just finished (within the last year) a test using a B757 on TOC. They are developing procedures and a checklist to give to the airlines in case of a TOC situation. The aircraft in question was flown down to 50 feet and then a go around was initiated.
More info to follow.

 

[75M]

I was part of the study at Moffet in '96. Cool system. Worked great. I believe the term was PCA for Propulsion Controlled Aircraft.

 

[Tomct]

I had the privilege of hearing Al Haynes speak at my school. His story was incredible. Anyways, I remember him saying that during the investigation they had dozens of crews try to land the simulator in the same situation, and all of them crashed, none of them even coming close to actually landing the aircraft.

I remember reading "somewhere" can't remember, that they were now having DC10 crews try to land the aircraft with the same setup and like you said...they did not even get CLOSE! Very Tough situation.

 

[Shrek]

The elderly did try this kind of wizardry. But the results were drastically different in Sioux City, Iowa. That DC 10 failed to understand power was required throughout the flair and they lost it on the bottom.

The Sioux City, Iowa DC10 pulled the power on the bottom starting the left bank associated with the orginial malfunction causing the aircraft to roll left and uncontrolled upon landing.

The Sioux City crew did a remarkable job up until that point and just relaxed and reverted to the normal way to land an aircraft. They did not know because they were not training in any way for the events they faced that day.

The training does exist and should be required in every Boeing sim course with academics included.

But airline would prefer to just put out another 100 page training bulletin telling you not to do something like they did after the AMR A300 JFK accident. Don't push the rudder below Va enough the aircraft was supposedly certified that way. The guaidance concerning TOC will be don't crash.

Like you could have done better !!!!!

You are a complete tool.

 

[Sedona16]

I'd say these guys rank pretty high as well:

http://www.wadenelson.com/gimli.html

 

[A350]

All:

Al Haynes is the Chuck Norris of the Airline Pilot world....He is and should be revered and his name should be uttered in a whispered tone worthy of the result. There are over 100 people who walk and breathe because of his abilities.

A350

 

[30West]

We tried it in the sim during initial training. Wasn't pretty!
Nothing beats experience.

 

[airplane wizard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1Yf6_MVTck

 

[thepotato232]

...No love for Denny Fitch, guys? Or Records and Dvorak, for that matter? Al may be the undisputed badass of the airline world, but this was CRM at its finest - credit where credit is due.

And luckytohaveajob is luckyhenevermeta232survivorinadarkalleywithahatchet. "Relaxed"... feh.