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CelticCitation

CelticCitation

Larry Wannabe
Joined
Nov 4, 2003
Posts
159
Acquisition is a big factor in the bottom line. Lots of (relatively) cheap Citation III's out there in the $3.5 range. We are in the west, a lot of Jackson Hole and Sun Valley. I know the III's are very field limited, but given their low price, would it make a descent charter? Is there something better for the money like a Lear 55, or 700 Hawker? Coming from light jets, and looking to get a bigger cabin, more speed, range, etc.
 
Astra's certainly look like they would fit the role well. However, couldn't find one in my hasty research for less than $5 mil. Lots of other aircraft for $2 million less.
 
The Citation III, Hawker 700, and Lear 55 are three of the biggest, if not THE biggest, runway hogs ever produced. If you are planning summer trips into Jackson and Sun Valley, these are not the desired machines. I'm not saying that they aren't capable, just not at all preferred.

I think you may need more money or less airplane. You can pick up a Lear 31A for ~3.5 million that will get into and out of both of these airports quite well (been there and done that), so long as you don't want to leave Sun Valley and go non-stop to Teterboro.
 
Did the same thing 2 years back and settled on the Sabre 65 and we are very happy with it. Product support is excellent from Sabreliner Corp. They finished second in last years AIN survey to Gulfstream. We have 2700 mile range and need less runway than the LJ-55 or C-650 with the same engine. At FL 410 we see .80 in summer. In two years we have missed one trip due to maintenance. It was a windshield.
Production on the 65 stopped in 1981 so they are older, but all parts are still being produced. A total of 76 were produced and 74 are still flying.
You can buy one in excellent condition with less then 10,000 hours, MSP, and RVSM for 2.5 to 3 million. You will need to spend more than twice this to get equal performance and maintenance cost are much less than the Hawker 700 or 800.

HEADWIND
 
Several years ago we were in the same boat. We settled on the Hawker 600 Fan. It averages 1500 pounds lighter than the 700. Ours could carry full fuel (9200#) plus 8 pax and 350 pounds of baggage and still be almost 500# under max structual gross. It would climb into the upper 30's with no problem. That is with -3C engines. With -3D or -4 engines it will do much better. While it is older than the 700 it is the same airframe and still supported. We would go in and out of Santa Fe, NM with performance issues.
 
CelticCitation said:
Acquisition is a big factor in the bottom line. Lots of (relatively) cheap Citation III's out there in the $3.5 range. We are in the west, a lot of Jackson Hole and Sun Valley. I know the III's are very field limited, but given their low price, would it make a descent charter? Is there something better for the money like a Lear 55, or 700 Hawker? Coming from light jets, and looking to get a bigger cabin, more speed, range, etc.
Click to expand...

I, for one, like ascent charters! :)
lol
 
Had to read my post twice to get the "ascent charters" line. Better late than never.

No one seems to be defending Citation III's. Maybe that is an answer in itself.
 
The WSCoD, although certainly a fine aircraft,
icon6.gif
(snicker, snicker) would most likely suffer from the same runway-itis that the 650, 700, and 55 do at elevation. Even with those fancy limb-cutter looking things glued to the wing.
 
Falcons are out there for little more money. How is the support? Don't know much about their hot and high. Any one operating got an opinion?
 
CelticCitation said:
Falcons are out there for little more money. How is the support? Don't know much about their hot and high. Any one operating got an opinion?
Click to expand...

Superb support. We had a slow leak leak on a main tire fuse plug while in Europe. Dassault had a full wheel on a rim sent to us in 1 day .... under warranty to boot (suprising). They also had contracted a local flight department to give us a hand.

I do not think that they will provide the same level of support to the 20 fleet, however. If the 20's are like any other older airframe out there, every time you take it to the service center you will roll the dice on costs. Best to get one that is service center maintained, if there is such an animal, and keep it there. Non represented FBO's can turn your airplane into a maintenance nightmare with little chance of help from the manufacturer.

High and hot is great in the 50/900 and very good in the 2000EX. It starts to deterorate from there. I have never flown the 20 series so I cannot speak on them.
 
G100driver said:
I have never flown the 20 series so I cannot speak on them.
Click to expand...

I have dealt with the 20's and they are fine flying aircraft. However, you do not want anything earlier than a F model and you want the 731 conversation. The CF700's are becoming maintenance nightmares. They are based on the CJ610's and GE doesn't support either engine to any great degree. Overhauls are becoming outragous. Plus the fuel burns. It is either pay me now or pay me later. The way the price of fuel is becoming, the pay off of getting fuel effient engines is becoming much shorter.

And forget about 200's. They are orphans. They actually have a lower market value than the 20F's with the 731 conversation, which is an older aircraft. That tells you something.
 
Any concerns on the Sabre 65 with pax thinking they are too old an aircraft? Currently flying a 1980 model C-550, so about the same era, but perceptions mean a lot.
 
CelticCitation said:
Any concerns on the Sabre 65 with pax thinking they are too old an aircraft? Currently flying a 1980 model C-550, so about the same era, but perceptions mean a lot.
Click to expand...

Looked at Sabres in the past. If you are carrying women any appreciable amount, the answer is not just NO, but H-LL NO!. Women just seem to hate that step down into the cabin, especially if they are wearing dresses or skirts. Not a major deal killer in the bigger picture, but if a woman has any power over your department, I would give more consideration to something else.
 
Rick1128 said:
Looked at Sabres in the past. If you are carrying women any appreciable amount, the answer is not just NO, but H-LL NO!. Women just seem to hate that step down into the cabin, especially if they are wearing dresses or skirts. Not a major deal killer in the bigger picture, but if a woman has any power over your department, I would give more consideration to something else.
Click to expand...
But just think of the comfort that they'll have in knowing that when you ditch in the Atlantic the airplane will float. :p

'Sled
 
Just read on another thread that VII's are going to drop in the market as Net Jets dumps them. Anyone know time frame or how many they actually are getting rid of?
 
You know, you really can't have it all. If you want something with a 1) decent size cabin, 2) good hot and high performance, 3) reasonable cruise performance, 4) fairly new, and 5) a cheap purchase price, it's just not gonna happen. You have to give up something.

You'll be lucky to get three of those five in one airplane. Of course, if you are willing to give up on #5 then you can get a Falcon 50 or a Citation Sovereign and have the other 4.

CelticCitation said:
Any concerns on the Sabre 65 with pax thinking they are too old an aircraft? Currently flying a 1980 model C-550, so about the same era, but perceptions mean a lot.
Click to expand...
 
A typical passenger can't tell the difference between a 1978 Citation and a new Encore off the assembly line. Question is, what do they think of the Sabre. I realize there must be compromises. That is why I ask this forum. The opinions of pilots who are flying the equipment means a lot more to me than the opinion of even the most honest salesperson. And I do thank everyone who has given an honest responce.
 
We flew a VII for a couple of years. Very reliable, good performer, nice handling. Sold it and flew a III for 6 months. Really missed the VII. Flying a Sovereign now and what a performer! Does everything Cessna said it would do and more.
 
What kind of range does the Sabre have? And isn't a VII just as much as an Astra and maintaince heavy?
 
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The Sabre 65 has 2700 mile range. We have women on board and the step has not been a problem. You step up to the top step - then step down into the aircraft. I do not work for a woman, and what kind of man would let a woman complain about such petty things an the door to his corporate jet? The entry is not as nice as a Hawker, but the 65 is faster, less maintenance cost, and we don't have to put alcohol in our wings.
As far as the age - some passengers think it's a new aircraft and I don't tell them the year model unless they ask. Do they ask the age of the 727 or 737-100 when flying airlines?
If you want or need something newer then the Astra will do about everything a 65 will do and the Falcon 50 will do more, both at a higher cost.

HEADWIND
 

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