Best Entry Level Medium

[AA717driver]

How far is Hawaii from the west coast?

Five hours.TC

 

[Rick1128]

The Sabre 65 has 2700 mile range. We have women on board and the step has not been a problem. You step up to the top step - then step down into the aircraft. I do not work for a woman, and what kind of man would let a woman complain about such petty things an the door to his corporate jet? The entry is not as nice as a Hawker, but the 65 is faster, less maintenance cost, and we don't have to put alcohol in our wings.
As far as the age - some passengers think it's a new aircraft and I don't tell them the year model unless they ask. Do they ask the age of the 727 or 737-100 when flying airlines?
If you want or need something newer then the Astra will do about everything a 65 will do and the Falcon 50 will do more, both at a higher cost.

HEADWIND

You just think you don't work for a woman. Most executives have three women they listen to and give a great deal of credance to. His wife, his secretary and his executive assistant. These are three people you absolutely do not want to pi$$ off. But if they like you, you can just about ignore everyone else. I have dealt with female executives, plus female executive staff and a majority seem to make an issue of that step down into the cabin. They do not seem to mind the steps up, but that step down for some reason is an issue.

The best advice is to make a short list of aircraft that meet his requirements and rank them. Then present that list to the boss. Then get him to at least sit in each one. Better yet take a normal trip in each one. Charter them if necessary. That way he can make a reasonabily informed decission.

good luck

 

[psysicx]

Whats the problem the ladies have with a step?

 

[HMR]

The Astra was a big step up from my previous plane.

 

[Capthuff]

If you put a Citation 3 up against a Hawker 700 and a Lear 55, the 3 would win every time. Sure it's not the ideal aircraft to have but if your budjet is less then 4 mil. it is the only one I'd pic. One thing you might mention to your boss is that there are a number of airplanes out there for 12 mil or less that - when you consider the charter revenue margin - after tax, depreciation, and such, they are cheaper to operate.

If you want a citation 3, I have a friend who is selling his for a larger a/c. It is the best equiped/ lowest time 3 out there.

 

[Sabresaurus]

Sabre 65

Interesting comments. I am currently flying a Sabre-65. I currently fly part 91 and have flown 135 in this make & model. Very rarely did or do I recall anyone complaining about the entrance to these aircraft (gender indifferent). With resepect to the looks of a less aged aircraft, you can sharpen these airplanes (Sabres) up quite a bit. I have to admit my aircraft is maintained exceptionally well, with a current paint scheme. TLC is the key. Waxing, polishing etc plus brite work weekly etc. You actually can polish a turd and make it look smooth "in some respects". If you want a good looking / sleek looking aircraft buy the Lear 55. If you want to walk down the isle way like Homo Erectus, buy the Cit III, Hawker or Astra. BUT..........................

If you were to compare the -65 "toe to toe" with a Hawker 700, Citation III, LR-55, Astra, etc and compare direct aquisition, operation, upkeep costs and performance I promise you this. After you take your financial beating I will bank my million saved and reinvest it into excellent paint, interior, upgraded navs, RVSM etc and still have a years worth of operational expenses in the bank drawing interest. This aircraft is a steal (65 model). Untapped aircraft on the market. The biggest draw back to these models is the lack of luggage space. The only aircraft it bows to (performance and head room) is the Astra. The down side with the Astra is aquisition cost.

And if you have a aversion to bending down in order to sit down then spend the extra million on your drop down floor on your Hawker, Citation III, Astra etc and eat the money. Just my two cents worth.

 

[CelticCitation]

Thanks Sabresaurus, that is the kind of info I've been looking for.

 

[Lead Sled]

Interesting comments. I am currently flying a Sabre-65. I currently fly part 91 and have flown 135 in this make & model. Very rarely did or do I recall anyone complaining about the entrance to these aircraft (gender indifferent). With resepect to the looks of a less aged aircraft, you can sharpen these airplanes (Sabres) up quite a bit. I have to admit my aircraft is maintained exceptionally well, with a current paint scheme. TLC is the key. Waxing, polishing etc plus brite work weekly etc. You actually can polish a turd and make it look smooth "in some respects". If you want a good looking / sleek looking aircraft buy the Lear 55. If you want to walk down the isle way like Homo Erectus, buy the Cit III, Hawker or Astra. BUT..........................

If you were to compare the -65 "toe to toe" with a Hawker 700, Citation III, LR-55, Astra, etc and compare direct aquisition, operation, upkeep costs and performance I promise you this. After you take your financial beating I will bank my million saved and reinvest it into excellent paint, interior, upgraded navs, RVSM etc and still have a years worth of operational expenses in the bank drawing interest. This aircraft is a steal (65 model). Untapped aircraft on the market. The biggest draw back to these models is the lack of luggage space. The only aircraft it bows to (performance and head room) is the Astra. The down side with the Astra is aquisition cost.

And if you have a aversion to bending down in order to sit down then spend the extra million on your drop down floor on your Hawker, Citation III, Astra etc and eat the money. Just my two cents worth.

Our Astra has appreciated $1.2 million in the past two years, but then we bought it right. Airplanes can still be bought "right" in today's market. When it comes to airplanes, newer is almost always better than older. If your boss is looking for the cheapest midsize jet he can get his hands on I'm sure that you wouldn't have much problem finding a Viper-powered Hawker for less than $400K. You can put the other $2.5 million in the bank, draw off the interest, and operate it forever.

'Sled

(Just kidding! )

 

[G100driver]

. The down side with the Astra is aquisition cost.

You also forgot the airplane stranding you at least once a year with a slat and or flap failure ....

 

[Prof. ATP]

Falcons are out there for little more money. How is the support? Don't know much about their hot and high. Any one operating got an opinion?

If we buy a Falcon I want to fly it...

On the serious side, the issue of Business/Commercial Aviation that arrived today had a little profile on the Citation III series. Sounds like their hot & high performance falls well short of our needs.

 

[Sabresaurus]

Homework required

You also forgot the airplane stranding you at least once a year with a slat and or flap failure ....

Homework for you G100driver. The Sabreliner 65 does not have slats. The older models of Sabre's have them (exceptions to that rule). In addition to the lack of slats on the -65, the wing was redesigned by Raisbeck (lower ref speeds / major drag reduction at high speed), and the flap system is quite effective and reliable. I (my experience) have not had a single flap system issue (8 years with this airplane). In addition, when I flew for a company with 4 Sabre -65's we never had a dispatch issue because of the flap system.

The older Sabre's (several models) have the airload slats you are refering to. The flap systems on some of those models have had issues.

Regards Sabresaurus.........................

 

[Lead Sled]

Homework for you G100driver. The Sabreliner 65 does not have slats. The older models of Sabre's have them (exceptions to that rule). In addition to the lack of slats on the -65, the wing was redesigned by Raisbeck (lower ref speeds / major drag reduction at high speed), and the flap system is quite effective and reliable. I (my experience) have not had a single flap system issue (8 years with this airplane). In addition, when I flew for a company with 4 Sabre -65's we never had a dispatch issue because of the flap system.

The older Sabre's (several models) have the airload slats you are refering to. The flap systems on some of those models have had issues.

I think that he was referring to the Astra's slat/flap system. I've already posted my thoughts on that.

Just wondering, does the 65 have a belly mounted speed brake?

'Sled

 

[Sabresaurus]

I think that he was referring to the Astra's slat/flap system. I've already posted my thoughts on that.

Just wondering, does the 65 have a belly mounted speed brake?

'Sled

All the -65's have the speed brake, whether or not it is operational is another question. Their is an STC which reactivate's the speed brake (80K). The money gets you the paperwork and hydraulic fluid. Pretty sad. Another feature is lead skid plate underneath the aircraft which is for gear up landings (greatly reduces damage to underneath / flaps in the event of gear up. It was installed & required for egress for the military in the event you geared up and needed a egress point underneath the aircraft.

Adios Sabresaurus

 

[CelticCitation]

ProfATP,

If we buy a Falcon, you can talk to it.

Thanks everyone for their input, I now have something to take to the boss.

 

[Sabresaurus]

G100Driver, Leadsled let me know you were talking about the Astra flaps / slats. Sorry about the misunderstanding.


Sabresaurus

 

[Lead Sled]

Another feature is lead skid plate underneath the aircraft which is for gear up landings (greatly reduces damage to underneath / flaps in the event of gear up. It was installed & required for egress for the military in the event you geared up and needed a egress point underneath the aircraft.

I believe that the Saberliner was designed to compete for a military contract back in the late 50's and early 60's. I heard that the reason why the Saberliners have the cabin step was to comply with the military's water ditching requirements.

'Sled

 

[Sabresaurus]

I believe that the Saberliner was designed to compete for a military contract back in the late 50's and early 60's. I heard that the reason why the Saberliners have the cabin step was to comply with the military's water ditching requirements.

'Sled

You are correct Sled. The Sabreliner and the Jet Star (memory serves me correctly?) were both competing for the ULX, UBX or UX (can't remember) contract with the military. North American and Lockheed both won contracts but for different purposes. I do not recall the requirements the government requested but I thought it had to do with designing / manufacturing transport trainer? The Sabre's bottom edge of the airstair door is upward on the waterline of the fuselage. You are correct, it was designed for ditching purposes. If you look at the stall fence on the right hand side of the aircraft there is a hole in the stall fence. It is used to connect the life raft rope to the aircraft as it is floating. I have heard of pictures of these aircraft doing just that in a salt water bay in the Phillipines or Guam. Apparently these hogs do swim. Can't remember where the pix are located on the internet.

Regards........Saurus

 

[G100driver]

G100Driver, Leadsled let me know you were talking about the Astra flaps / slats. Sorry about the misunderstanding.


Sabresaurus

No worries, mate.

 

[LXApilot]

Who Was It That Said You Can't Have Everything?

The -650s have a large baggage compartment in the tail, no nose baggage like on the -500s. And they can haul a $hit ton, I've never seen a III get close on weight. It goes fast and goes high, but runway performance on a hot/high gross day leaves something to be desired- even at sea level. Some trips in the summer leaving places like PDK or TTN and you'll see runway restrictions creeping up on you. Going into Tahoe or Pitkin Co. this airplane definately gets you there- but don't plan on leaving there with anything else than the boss and his arm candy. Cessna really missed the boat when they didn't give it leading edge devices. They eventually learned their lesson and gave the X leading edge slats and that solved some of the -650s performance problems. It eats the gas down low, but once it gets high you can see .80 burning 700-800 pph per side. The IIIs can go up to .85 with the wings buzzing, the VIIs are limited to .83 because of their windshield. Biggest problem with the -650s? They can't make Hawai'i. Only one -650 ever went to hawai'i, and I think their ass cheeks were picking up the cockpit seats by the time they touched down. Book says you can do it in long range cruise, but you are getting -500 type TAS and the flight times are ridiculous- 7 or 8 hours at those speeds, even from San Francisco. I've been asked to do it several times now, and each time I look at it- it's just a little too scary. And I'm pretty damn bold. Maintenance is considerable on the -650 as well, plenty of small annoying stuff that keeps breaking. But nobody can argue with Cessna's customer support and Citation Service Centers. I think they are the best in the business. Keep up with your phases and know your mx schedule to avoid downing the aircraft suddenly. I agree with most of the other posters that the Astra is probably the best airplane for bang/buck! I've mentioned this a lot when I was flying corporate full time... never saw one in the hangar though. I've heard FA-20 and N-265 are definately overlooked and under utlized assets in this size/speed/range category. Check out Business and Commercial Aviation magazine and their annual cost analysis information on each aircraft type/mission for the best comparison. You'll actually get a few surprises. Ever think about a Westwind? Heard some good things, some bad things- but I'd think they have to be in the same ballpark. If you ever need anyone to fly a -500 or -650 just let me know. I've got a great daily rate!
Fly safe...

 

[hawkerjet]

To further muddy the waters, it was because of that contract with the military and the Sabre, that allowed Israeli Aircraft Industries to buy the Westwind design and the rest is history.... The westwind (1124)and the Sabre were deemed a conflict of interest in the bidding process so they shed the 1124 to Ben Gurion.