BBC's take on the U.S. regional industry.

[siucavflight]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programmes/world_news_america/8041357.stm

 

[OCP]

What the FOQA is FOQA!?

 

[doh]

"The rules prvent fatigue". He must be talking about the 16 hour duty/8 hour reduced rest rule.:smash:uke::uzi:

 

[siucavflight]

I like when the reporter mentioned to that jackas$ that people come to work tired cause they are only making 20K a year, and he had no answer for her.

 

[Flybywire44]

"The rules prvent fatigue". He must be talking about the 16 hour duty/8 hour reduced rest rule.:smash:uke::uzi:

Roger Cohen is an as*hole. You can't speak to their individual choice? You can speak to the market conditions that their airlines are generating... self-serving idiot.

 

[IBNAV8R]

"No employee should go to work tired." Didn't I see this guy on SNL - Irwin Mainway? (sorry, can't find a video).

 

[V-1]

Thanks for sharing.

Unfortunately I fell asleep halfway through.

 

[SkywayFO]

Cohen is an idiot. Ignorant ********************ing toolbag. What Airline is he the CEO of? Don't they just pass that title around the CEO, just like the title of Regional Airline of the year. What a shame association/lobby group. ********************ing tool I tell ya!!!

 

[ualdriver]

Interesting news piece.

Cohen came across as pretty ignorant. The FAR's prevent people from showing up tired for work? Give me a break. The things that need to be fixed cost money- probably alot of money, which means they won't be fixed until enough people get hurt or worse. We all know that.

There were two points made that I didn't know. One, that you guys don't have FOQA. I thought everyone operating a turbojet had that by now. Two, 5 of the last 6 accidents happened on regional airlines? I would have thought that the majors had some interspersed in there that qualified as an accident.

And they're looking at fatigue for that last Colgan crash? I haven't seen anything lately about that accident. How long were they on duty?

 

[crj567]

I would love to have Cohen join me on just one trip.. I know of a sweet 3-day for that fool..... I would bet $50 that a-hole would wreck his freaking car driving home from the airport after this "sweet" gem. That is unless, he did the "responsible" thing when so freaking exhausted-and just passed out for a while in his Hyundai before getting on the road!

Where the heck is the General? I sure would love to see what that moron thinks of all the "little guys" who have second jobs and make as little money as the F.O. in the clip.

The world is full of airbags like Cohen and Gen Lee. Useless people-it is just a shame they don't have to come along and see what some of the "little people" have to deal with.

-I would gladly invite the General on the same 3-day... Come along, Chief! Your coffee will be fresh and extra creamy-don't mind the little brown lumps-we just got some bad filters!!

 

[propsarebest]

This Cohen guy was never a CEO. He used to be head of P.R. for AOPA.


You can thank him for all the junk mail you get from AOPA.

 

[OCP]

There were two points made that I didn't know. One, that you guys don't have FOQA. I thought everyone operating a turbojet had that by now.

I'm at ASA and have never even heard of that before. What does it do?

 

[Dumb Pilot]

I'm at ASA and have never even heard of that before. What does it do?

Flight Operations Quality Assurance....

It is a program that identifies operational error trends using the information downloaded from the A/C's FDR's

 

[ualdriver]

I'm at ASA and have never even heard of that before. What does it do?

Like dumb pilot said but I'll take it one step further. It basically allows representatives, usually from both the union and the company, to look at various data points and try to find unwanted trends and work together to fix them before they become an incident or accident.

For example, let's say a fictional airline's data is analyzed and they're finding that X% of visual approaches are unstabilized at 500 feet and pilots aren't going around as they should. During your next PC, part of your briefing might include the data from FOQA, an explanation of how these approaches are trending the wrong way, etc., etc., and then hopefully that would raise pilot awareness and more attention would be paid to stabilizing approaches better or executing a go around. Or maybe they'll find that a bunch of these unstablized approaches are happening at a certain airport so they could work with ATC perhaps to give more time to get guys down or perhaps change crossing restrictions on the arrival or whatever.

I know for a fact it has improved safety at my airline and it's incomprehensible to me that the FAA doesn't make stuff like that mandatory.

 

[imacdog]

FOQA would be nice but crap like a scheduled reduced-rest 8 hour overnight needs to go, NOW.

 

[flyboyike]

I know for a fact it has improved safety at my airline and it's incomprehensible to me that the FAA doesn't make stuff like that mandatory.

It's not like the FAA doesn't make enough stuff mandatory.

 

[OCP]

Like dumb pilot said but I'll take it one step further. It basically allows representatives, usually from both the union and the company, to look at various data points and try to find unwanted trends and work together to fix them before they become an incident or accident.

For example, let's say a fictional airline's data is analyzed and they're finding that X% of visual approaches are unstabilized at 500 feet and pilots aren't going around as they should. During your next PC, part of your briefing might include the data from FOQA, an explanation of how these approaches are trending the wrong way, etc., etc., and then hopefully that would raise pilot awareness and more attention would be paid to stabilizing approaches better or executing a go around. Or maybe they'll find that a bunch of these unstablized approaches are happening at a certain airport so they could work with ATC perhaps to give more time to get guys down or perhaps change crossing restrictions on the arrival or whatever.

I know for a fact it has improved safety at my airline and it's incomprehensible to me that the FAA doesn't make stuff like that mandatory.

All that sounds like the ASAP program then. (which we do have at ASA) Same thing, different name?

 

[Buzo]

All that sounds like the ASAP program then. (which we do have at ASA) Same thing, different name?

FOQA and ASAP are not the same thing. ASAP as you know, is self reporting. FOQA downlinks info from the FDR.

 

[Brody1]

Wanna check a bag? That will be $25 extra. Want a window seat? That'll be an extra $35. Want a flight crew that had a full nights' sleep? Fork over another $100.

Unbelievable . . .

 

[sinkrate]

Like dumb pilot said but I'll take it one step further. It basically allows representatives, usually from both the union and the company, to look at various data points and try to find unwanted trends and work together to fix them before they become an incident or accident.

For example, let's say a fictional airline's data is analyzed and they're finding that X% of visual approaches are unstabilized at 500 feet and pilots aren't going around as they should. During your next PC, part of your briefing might include the data from FOQA, an explanation of how these approaches are trending the wrong way, etc., etc., and then hopefully that would raise pilot awareness and more attention would be paid to stabilizing approaches better or executing a go around. Or maybe they'll find that a bunch of these unstablized approaches are happening at a certain airport so they could work with ATC perhaps to give more time to get guys down or perhaps change crossing restrictions on the arrival or whatever.

I know for a fact it has improved safety at my airline and it's incomprehensible to me that the FAA doesn't make stuff like that mandatory.

Unfortunately managements at regional airlines are not that enlightened. Instead of using the DFDR data to identify training and maintence issues to address they use it to identify the pilots involved and then fire the pilots. Consequently most mature Regional contracts have strict language prohibiting the use of 'eletronic data' by management for any purpose.

I work at one of the three regioanls that do have a FOQA program in place. Management is constantly trying to use the data in disciplinary procedings. The FAA isn't much better. The union has had to seek help from the FAA's national program manager to get the local FAA to follow their own rules. It takes time to change old mens attitudes and managements prejudices.

 

[LowlyPropCapt]

We need a dozen more stories just like this one in the press. The only way our lot as commuter dogs changes is if the public gets outraged at our plight. I for one welcome this sort of exposure.

 

[Hobit]

I agree with the earlier poster that commented on cohen's stuttering while trying to rebut the reason for pilots showing up fatigued. If you watch it twice you see him answer it incredulously and stop pick his words then stop immediatey again and think about what he just said. I believe he wished he could get a 'do-over' on his answer because it shows how managements look at pilots - a problem, not an asset.

While watching and listening to cohen, all I could think was that somewhere there is a used car lot missing a salesman in a bad suit.

 

[ualdriver]

Unfortunately managements at regional airlines are not that enlightened. Instead of using the DFDR data to identify training and maintence issues to address they use it to identify the pilots involved and then fire the pilots. Consequently most mature Regional contracts have strict language prohibiting the use of 'eletronic data' by management for any purpose.

I work at one of the three regioanls that do have a FOQA program in place. Management is constantly trying to use the data in disciplinary procedings. The FAA isn't much better. The union has had to seek help from the FAA's national program manager to get the local FAA to follow their own rules. It takes time to change old mens attitudes and managements prejudices.

FOQA for discipline should be illegal unless it is, for example, gross negligence or for guys who are repeatedly violating SOP despite being shown the errors or their ways, etc. I knew it was bad at the regionals, but I didn't realize that management was using it as a tool to fire guys.

This just illustrates another area where FAA oversight is lacking. I can't think of any reason why an operator of 737's should be any different than an operator of an RJ from a safety standpoint, other than the obvious- $$.

 

[USCtrojan]

"SAFETY IS A GIVEN"...Charlie Tutt quote, ASA negotiations. Amazing. I'm sure he's eating that now, or more, rationalizing how he didn't mean what he said......

Trojan

 

[CX880]

I like when the reporter mentioned to that jackas$ that people come to work tired cause they are only making 20K a year, and he had no answer for her.

What would you have said to that stupid irrelevant question? That Cohen guy could have been a little more subtle with his hate towards pilots but at the end of the day he is right. No one is forcing you to do this job. We are labor and we always will be. And to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I felt fatigued because there was no adequate rest on my schedule. This is the job that we chose I guaratee you even the highest paid positions in this business will feel fatigued. It's only natural you are flying a tube up in the sky for hours a day. You're not filing tps reports.

 

[ualdriver]

What would you have said to that stupid irrelevant question? That Cohen guy could have been a little more subtle with his hate towards pilots but at the end of the day he is right. No one is forcing you to do this job. We are labor and we always will be. And to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I felt fatigued because there was no adequate rest on my schedule. This is the job that we chose I guaratee you even the highest paid positions in this business will feel fatigued. It's only natural you are flying a tube up in the sky for hours a day. You're not filing tps reports.

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

It wasn't an irrelevant question, either. If guys are having to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet then that is a problem. We're supposed to be all working towards 0 accidents, right? It's impossible to drive toward that goal without addressing fatigue and if low pay is a factor, then it needs to be at least considered.

Further, are you saying that because YOU haven't personally experienced a fatiguing schedule that fatigue doesn't exist in the regional airline industry? Is that the point you were trying to make?

 

[Sig]

I for one welcome this sort of exposure.

I KNEW IT! Let's put on the Elvis sideburns and make money down south buck nekkid! I gotta fish bowl, too!

Wait. Wrong exposure.

/inside PDT joke

 

[Full of LUV]

I think you are missing the point!!!

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

It wasn't an irrelevant question, either. If guys are having to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet then that is a problem. We're supposed to be all working towards 0 accidents, right? It's impossible to drive toward that goal without addressing fatigue and if low pay is a factor, then it needs to be at least considered.

Further, are you saying that because YOU haven't personally experienced a fatiguing schedule that fatigue doesn't exist in the regional airline industry? Is that the point you were trying to make?

The only thing the FAA mandates is crew rest. As the industry has demonstrated before, and probably again, they can find employees who are willing to work for free, or worse yet, pay for the job. It's a free country and if you accept a job at 20K and then complain that it is not enough money, then you can quit or get another job. If enough people did this, then guess what, contractors would have to pay $40K to hire new pilots as that would be the going rate.
It's like the debate over the minimum wage being $5 an hour and Mc D's is paying $7.50, that is the true minimum wage.
Honestly, most of the public just doesn't give a moments thought to how much you do or do not make, they expect the FAA to ensure that your company operates in a safe manner and your company will offer the lowest cost labor to get that job done in order to win the next contract. That's the way it is.

 

[CX880]

The only thing the FAA mandates is crew rest. As the industry has demonstrated before, and probably again, they can find employees who are willing to work for free, or worse yet, pay for the job. It's a free country and if you accept a job at 20K and then complain that it is not enough money, then you can quit or get another job. If enough people did this, then guess what, contractors would have to pay $40K to hire new pilots as that would be the going rate.
It's like the debate over the minimum wage being $5 an hour and Mc D's is paying $7.50, that is the true minimum wage.
Honestly, most of the public just doesn't give a moments thought to how much you do or do not make, they expect the FAA to ensure that your company operates in a safe manner and your company will offer the lowest cost labor to get that job done in order to win the next contract. That's the way it is.

I agree 100%

 

[CX880]

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

It wasn't an irrelevant question, either. If guys are having to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet then that is a problem. We're supposed to be all working towards 0 accidents, right? It's impossible to drive toward that goal without addressing fatigue and if low pay is a factor, then it needs to be at least considered.

Further, are you saying that because YOU haven't personally experienced a fatiguing schedule that fatigue doesn't exist in the regional airline industry? Is that the point you were trying to make?

If someone is working or is able to fly an airline schedule and do a second job at the same time then obviously they're not being fatigued at the airline. Again that is a personal choice which no one else is responsible for. An airline is not going to chance years of union mandaded pay rates because Johny can't afford his BMW on regional and wal-mart pay. Most regionals out there give you 10 days off at least first year, unless you've some special deal or ditching reserve, going working part time is not even possible. I'm not saying our schedules are not fatiguing in fact I'm saying it's a very hard job as far as schedules. What I was saying from my experience I couldn't remember the last time I felt fatigued because the company didn't give us enough rest time. No dubt there are companies out there that do reduced rest late evening arrival and morning shows especially our tprop brothers. That's jus the way that segment of the flying is. It's in our job description when we sign up for it no body forces you to sign up for it.