BBC's take on the U.S. regional industry.

[LowlyPropCapt]

We need a dozen more stories just like this one in the press. The only way our lot as commuter dogs changes is if the public gets outraged at our plight. I for one welcome this sort of exposure.

 

[Hobit]

I agree with the earlier poster that commented on cohen's stuttering while trying to rebut the reason for pilots showing up fatigued. If you watch it twice you see him answer it incredulously and stop pick his words then stop immediatey again and think about what he just said. I believe he wished he could get a 'do-over' on his answer because it shows how managements look at pilots - a problem, not an asset.

While watching and listening to cohen, all I could think was that somewhere there is a used car lot missing a salesman in a bad suit.

 

[ualdriver]

Unfortunately managements at regional airlines are not that enlightened. Instead of using the DFDR data to identify training and maintence issues to address they use it to identify the pilots involved and then fire the pilots. Consequently most mature Regional contracts have strict language prohibiting the use of 'eletronic data' by management for any purpose.

I work at one of the three regioanls that do have a FOQA program in place. Management is constantly trying to use the data in disciplinary procedings. The FAA isn't much better. The union has had to seek help from the FAA's national program manager to get the local FAA to follow their own rules. It takes time to change old mens attitudes and managements prejudices.

FOQA for discipline should be illegal unless it is, for example, gross negligence or for guys who are repeatedly violating SOP despite being shown the errors or their ways, etc. I knew it was bad at the regionals, but I didn't realize that management was using it as a tool to fire guys.

This just illustrates another area where FAA oversight is lacking. I can't think of any reason why an operator of 737's should be any different than an operator of an RJ from a safety standpoint, other than the obvious- $$.

 

[USCtrojan]

"SAFETY IS A GIVEN"...Charlie Tutt quote, ASA negotiations. Amazing. I'm sure he's eating that now, or more, rationalizing how he didn't mean what he said......

Trojan

 

[CX880]

I like when the reporter mentioned to that jackas$ that people come to work tired cause they are only making 20K a year, and he had no answer for her.

What would you have said to that stupid irrelevant question? That Cohen guy could have been a little more subtle with his hate towards pilots but at the end of the day he is right. No one is forcing you to do this job. We are labor and we always will be. And to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I felt fatigued because there was no adequate rest on my schedule. This is the job that we chose I guaratee you even the highest paid positions in this business will feel fatigued. It's only natural you are flying a tube up in the sky for hours a day. You're not filing tps reports.

 

[ualdriver]

What would you have said to that stupid irrelevant question? That Cohen guy could have been a little more subtle with his hate towards pilots but at the end of the day he is right. No one is forcing you to do this job. We are labor and we always will be. And to tell you the truth I can't remember the last time I felt fatigued because there was no adequate rest on my schedule. This is the job that we chose I guaratee you even the highest paid positions in this business will feel fatigued. It's only natural you are flying a tube up in the sky for hours a day. You're not filing tps reports.

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

It wasn't an irrelevant question, either. If guys are having to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet then that is a problem. We're supposed to be all working towards 0 accidents, right? It's impossible to drive toward that goal without addressing fatigue and if low pay is a factor, then it needs to be at least considered.

Further, are you saying that because YOU haven't personally experienced a fatiguing schedule that fatigue doesn't exist in the regional airline industry? Is that the point you were trying to make?

 

[Sig]

I for one welcome this sort of exposure.

I KNEW IT! Let's put on the Elvis sideburns and make money down south buck nekkid! I gotta fish bowl, too!

Wait. Wrong exposure.

/inside PDT joke

 

[Full of LUV]

I think you are missing the point!!!

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

It wasn't an irrelevant question, either. If guys are having to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet then that is a problem. We're supposed to be all working towards 0 accidents, right? It's impossible to drive toward that goal without addressing fatigue and if low pay is a factor, then it needs to be at least considered.

Further, are you saying that because YOU haven't personally experienced a fatiguing schedule that fatigue doesn't exist in the regional airline industry? Is that the point you were trying to make?

The only thing the FAA mandates is crew rest. As the industry has demonstrated before, and probably again, they can find employees who are willing to work for free, or worse yet, pay for the job. It's a free country and if you accept a job at 20K and then complain that it is not enough money, then you can quit or get another job. If enough people did this, then guess what, contractors would have to pay $40K to hire new pilots as that would be the going rate.
It's like the debate over the minimum wage being $5 an hour and Mc D's is paying $7.50, that is the true minimum wage.
Honestly, most of the public just doesn't give a moments thought to how much you do or do not make, they expect the FAA to ensure that your company operates in a safe manner and your company will offer the lowest cost labor to get that job done in order to win the next contract. That's the way it is.

 

[CX880]

The only thing the FAA mandates is crew rest. As the industry has demonstrated before, and probably again, they can find employees who are willing to work for free, or worse yet, pay for the job. It's a free country and if you accept a job at 20K and then complain that it is not enough money, then you can quit or get another job. If enough people did this, then guess what, contractors would have to pay $40K to hire new pilots as that would be the going rate.
It's like the debate over the minimum wage being $5 an hour and Mc D's is paying $7.50, that is the true minimum wage.
Honestly, most of the public just doesn't give a moments thought to how much you do or do not make, they expect the FAA to ensure that your company operates in a safe manner and your company will offer the lowest cost labor to get that job done in order to win the next contract. That's the way it is.

I agree 100%

 

[CX880]

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

It wasn't an irrelevant question, either. If guys are having to work 2 jobs in order to make ends meet then that is a problem. We're supposed to be all working towards 0 accidents, right? It's impossible to drive toward that goal without addressing fatigue and if low pay is a factor, then it needs to be at least considered.

Further, are you saying that because YOU haven't personally experienced a fatiguing schedule that fatigue doesn't exist in the regional airline industry? Is that the point you were trying to make?

If someone is working or is able to fly an airline schedule and do a second job at the same time then obviously they're not being fatigued at the airline. Again that is a personal choice which no one else is responsible for. An airline is not going to chance years of union mandaded pay rates because Johny can't afford his BMW on regional and wal-mart pay. Most regionals out there give you 10 days off at least first year, unless you've some special deal or ditching reserve, going working part time is not even possible. I'm not saying our schedules are not fatiguing in fact I'm saying it's a very hard job as far as schedules. What I was saying from my experience I couldn't remember the last time I felt fatigued because the company didn't give us enough rest time. No dubt there are companies out there that do reduced rest late evening arrival and morning shows especially our tprop brothers. That's jus the way that segment of the flying is. It's in our job description when we sign up for it no body forces you to sign up for it.

 

[ualdriver]

To say, "well that's the way it is" is not acceptable to me. Then I guess once in a while we'll just drive some aircraft into the ground because guys are flying around tired. Hopefully your loved ones aren't on board or in the house they crash into.

The FAA could do a few things just off the top of my head to help reduce fatigue:

1) minimum experience requirements for pilots in 121 operations. Raise the experience required so that regionals are forced to hire guys that have other options (in normal economic conditions) than just working for Mesa. That would kill 2 birds with one stone. First, it would get rid of 300 hour guys who, in my opinion, have no business flying in the right seat of anything a 121 operator flies. Second, it might put upward pressure on entry level wages as regionals would have a smaller pool of pilots to choose from.

2) Get rid of some of the more onerous rest rules. 15 hour duty days for pilots? GMAFB. At 12 hours, the parking brake should be set, period. Min rest block to block? Nope. It should be 9 hours (at least), in the hotel room, as determined by the PIC who will notify the 121 operator when he has arrived in his room and when his crew rest commences. If they can trust him to fly a 30M jet, they can trust him to call when his rest starts.

I realize flying airplanes can sometimes be fatiguing (off body clock flying, international flying, etc.), but the airline industry and the FAA shouldn't be ADDING to the inherent fatigue levels that are inherent in airline operations by lackadaisical standards and practices.

 

[CX880]

I'm with you. Hopefully something positive can come from this accident not just for Colgan pilots but industry wide.

 

[CEO silly sap]

It would appear to me that you are all stabbing knives in different directions. I believe your questions should be what are WE, Im out of the business, going to do about it? Remember you will be deadheading on these flights with fatigued crews, min time crews. Perhaps your pilots should make it a certain standard in their contract language for who they hire, what they hire, and the rest required. The FAA requires 8hrs min. There is nothing that stops any of you from fighting to get 10 hr min door open to door lock(hotel). There is nothing that states your training departments cant shop the feeder airlines for issues.

These lawyers and business people are just that, its your arse in the seat and your family on these planes...

if you fight together they battle will be much easier.

 

[waterski45]

Who do you work for CX880, how long have you been there, and are you junior or senior on your fleet and seat? Just curious so I can frame your perspective.

He works for GoJet.

 

[ASA_Aviator]

FOQA is on the way at ASA. It will be worked out just like the ASAP program, in that any data found will not be used against the individual pilots. The FDR downloads will show things like flap overspeeds, stabilized approach parameters, engine exceedances, go arounds, etc. The goal is to see what is really happening on the line. As we all know, no one flies the same with someone sitting on the jumpseat, but FOQA records every flight. Over time, you begin to see patterns, and those data can be used to strengthen the deficient areas during recurrent events. (Not for individuals, but for the entire group.)

We, as pilots, should be supportive of any safety program, since our lives are on the line day after day. We all know that the FARs do not guarantee safety. Safety is each individual's personal responsibility.

 

[ualdriver]

He works for GoJet.

Great. A GoJet guy. Was he one of the guys that left TSA to jump ahead of the TSA guys to get GoJets started?

 

[doh]

Yossarian:If you don't say anything, we send you out to fly. If you say you're fatigued, we say it's in the rules that it's your responsibilty to show up ready to fly. It's the catch 22.
Shrink:That's some catch, that catch 22.
Yossarian:It's the best there is.

Looks like Cohen recently reread the book.

 

[wms]

All that sounds like the ASAP program then. (which we do have at ASA) Same thing, different name?

It's more like the LOQA program at ASA but uses FDR data rather than observed data. FOQA is very expensive to implement and manage, so many airlines don't use it, even though it would be a very useful and anonymous tool.

 

[CheeseDick]

to say, "well that's the way it is" is not acceptable to me. Then i guess once in a while we'll just drive some aircraft into the ground because guys are flying around tired. Hopefully your loved ones aren't on board or in the house they crash into.

The faa could do a few things just off the top of my head to help reduce fatigue:

1) minimum experience requirements for pilots in 121 operations. Raise the experience required so that regionals are forced to hire guys that have other options (in normal economic conditions) than just working for mesa. That would kill 2 birds with one stone. First, it would get rid of 300 hour guys who, in my opinion, have no business flying in the right seat of anything a 121 operator flies. Second, it might put upward pressure on entry level wages as regionals would have a smaller pool of pilots to choose from.

2) get rid of some of the more onerous rest rules. 15 hour duty days for pilots? Gmafb. At 12 hours, the parking brake should be set, period. Min rest block to block? Nope. It should be 9 hours (at least), in the hotel room, as determined by the pic who will notify the 121 operator when he has arrived in his room and when his crew rest commences. If they can trust him to fly a 30m jet, they can trust him to call when his rest starts.

I realize flying airplanes can sometimes be fatiguing (off body clock flying, international flying, etc.), but the airline industry and the faa shouldn't be adding to the inherent fatigue levels that are inherent in airline operations by lackadaisical standards and practices.

amen!

 

[thinairupthere]

How come it takes a Brit to stand up and say there is a problem? Just say'n...