Barnstormers Aerial Advertising

[AirplanesSuck]

Yes sir... Avbug has just shown us his lack of aviation prowess by his admission.

The tool is not dangerous, nor is the task... just the pilot who isn't up to it.

 

[avbug]

Thanks, that is a perfectly logical line of reasoning. To be clear, I was trying to reconcile that with this section:

There's nothing to reconcile. Flying of it's own accord is not dangerous. It's the pilot who makes it so.

When towing a banner, the failure of a generator poses no problem whatsoever. The failure of a powerplant results in a forced landing during daylight conditions, and a reasonable pilot will have already noted a forced landing site long before the engine ever quits. A vacum pump failure poses no controllability problems, and one does not tow a banner in the ice. One does not tow a banner in the clouds, and lack of radar is of no consequence because one does not tow banners under conditions in which it might be of benefit. Towing a banner, from takeoff to pickup to the tow to the release and drop and subsequent landing, is one of the most simple, most safe things one can do with a working airplane.

Flying single pilot IFR is one of the single most demanding, highest workload environments which a pilot can undertake. Single pilot IFR, in IMC, in a single engine piston airplane, particularly one with a single electrical and single vacum source, no airborne radar, limited or no deice and anti-ice capability, limited performance, and no autopilot, is not only highly demanding, but is an exercise in taking nearly every possible hazard one can face in the business, and stacking them all on one flight with limited or no alternative options.

Yes, the pilot makes that flight dangerous too...by undertaking the flight.

You noted my previous commentary in other threads regarding single engine piston IFR operations, and if you've read over it at all, you'll know that I don't advocate, support, or do those operations. The operation itself poses no hazard, and no risk, so long as it's not undertaken...it's the pilot that elects to accept risk, and to create a dangerous flight. The pilot can do a lot to ensure the safety of the flight, starting with an adequate preflight. However, the pilot can do more by ensuring the flight goes in the daylight in visual conditions, and ensures such routing and operation that he can secure the airplane in the event of a powerplant failure, electrical failure, or other problem which may arise.

This is of no event when towing a banner. As previously, it's of no consequence and poses no danger at all unless the pilot elects to make it dangerous. A flight from A to B in a single engine airplane is just the same. The act of going from A to B, of it's own accord, not a problem. The pilot who complicates it by undertaking the flight in an airplane with limited options and performance, and who does so with limited alternatives in equipment and redundancy paints himself into a corner, and thus makes the flight dangerous. Again, it falls back to the pilot.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Wow. Lots more paragraphs to explain to everyone that he's a bumbling, double-talking goofball.

Are there risks? No. Yes. Maybe. Depends on the pilot. YOU ARE ALL WRONG! Bow before Avbug's greatness. When he sets foot on Mars in a not-at-all-dangerous mission and claims the planet for himself, we're all doomed. But simply because of our own incompetence.

 

[doog]

This is of no event when towing a banner. As previously, it's of no consequence and poses no danger at all unless the pilot elects to make it dangerous. A flight from A to B in a single engine airplane is just the same. The act of going from A to B, of it's own accord, not a problem. The pilot who complicates it by undertaking the flight in an airplane with limited options and performance, and who does so with limited alternatives in equipment and redundancy paints himself into a corner, and thus makes the flight dangerous. Again, it falls back to the pilot.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Of course I agree that it always comes back to the pilot, and legal and safe are not always aligned.

 

[nismo611]

You must not be a good enough pilot to appreciate his greatness.

Anyway, whoever thinks single pilot night IFR is dangerous, must not be a good pilot. Probably blames systems failures on banner pilots.

CE

Jeesh I think dual pilot VFR day is scary as hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God, I need a less scary occupation. Maybe I could open an ice cream shop that seems low risk.

 

[CrimsonEclipse]

Jeesh I think dual pilot VFR day is scary as hell!!!!!!!!!!!!!

God, I need a less scary occupation. Maybe I could open an ice cream shop that seems low risk.

..and risk the dreaded "Brain Freeze"?!?!?!?

*shivers*

Too risky for me.

Ask Buggy, he's the man for the job!

CE

 

[labbutt]

didnt read all of these posts, however, i flew for barnstormers in the summer of 2004. i did not pay for training, and was paid $13/hour for every hour i had a sign up. Had a blast in myrtle beach! showed up each morning in shorts and flip flops, and flew all day. I think 600 hours in 3 months. The planes were fine. Towing is certainly more dangerous than many other flying jobs. In the summer of 2005, Sky Signs sadly lost one in a training accident, killing the instructor and the student. Also in 2005, Barnstormers had one lose a motor and had a water landing just offshore(no injury). All in all great experience, but convince DR that you shouldnt be paying for training, much less 3500.

 

[AirplanesSuck]

Towing is certainly more dangerous than many other flying jobs.

Uh-oh...

Standby for AvBuggery....

 

[bizjet800]

Uh-oh...

Standby for AvBuggery....

Yep! The son of Forrest Gump and the Grandson of Rainman is formulating his response.

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

I towed in 14Papa for many hundreds of hours in 1999, I did pay $1500. for training.. but they teach you how to safely do the job and not kill yourself, nothing dangerous about towing banners if you're in a Super Cub and have the proper training.

I have a good job, I mean career now flying rich folks in little jets, but I am considering towing banners on my days off, fun stuff.

 

[doog]

I towed in 14Papa for many hundreds of hours in 1999, I did pay $1500. for training.. but they teach you how to safely do the job and not kill yourself, nothing dangerous about towing banners if you're in a Super Cub and have the proper training.

Maybe this guy should have paid the $1500

http://www.venturacountystar.com/news/2008/sep/01/pilot-dies-as-banner-towing-plane-crashes-in/

 

[avbug]

Maybe this guy should have paid the $1500

http://www.venturacountystar.com/new...ne-crashes-in/

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?ev_id=20080903X01361&key=1

NTSB Identification: SEA08LA192
14 CFR Part 91: General Aviation
Accident occurred Sunday, August 31, 2008 in Camarillo, CA
Probable Cause Approval Date: 8/13/2009
Aircraft: PIPER PA-18-150, registration: N7482D
Injuries: 1 Fatal.During a banner pickup maneuver, witnesses observed the airplane level off from the descent about 150 feet before the banner pickup loop, then rotate and catch the banner pickup loop with its main landing gear instead of the tail hook. Witnesses stated that as the banner started to lift, the pilot added full power and began a climbout at a 45-degree angle to an altitude of about 150 feet. The airplane was then observed to level off before the nose suddenly dropped to about a 30-to-45-degree nose-down attitude before impacting the ground. One of the pilots who witnessed the accident said that it appeared that the pilot might be trying to land straight ahead but did not level off prior to ground impact. According to company procedures, the pilot is expected to establish an approach speed of 80 to 85 mph, maintaining a 15 degree to 20 degree approach angle until the rotation point at the banner pickup loop, and establish full power before rotating. Rotation serves to swing the hook down and forward to snag the rope, as opposed to a flat approach that drags the hook across the rope. As the airplane rotates, the nose is to be raised approximately 20 degrees to 30 degrees above the horizon. At 150 feet, the power is pulled back and the airplane smoothly leveled off at an altitude of 200 feet where full power is then applied. A postaccident examination noted no preimpact anomalies with the airframe or engine which would have precluded normal operation.
The National Transportation Safety Board determines the probable cause(s) of this accident as follows:
The pilot's failure to fly the correct approach profile that resulted in the inadvertent pickup of a banner tow line with the airplane's main landing gear.

http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20080903X01361&ntsbno=SEA08LA192&akey=1

The most dangerous component in the airplane continues to be the pilot...especially one which does not follow the correct procedure.

According to the company's Director of Operations, the accident pilot had accumulated a total of 260.2 hours of banner tow time in the PA-18 airplane during his employment with the company. Company records also indicated that the pilot's most recent recurrent training occurred on January 13, 2008, which consisted of 0.5 hours of ground instruction, with the training form annotated, "[The pilot] was observed later picking a banner with N105F, and he demonstrated proper safe operational procedures as discussed." Additionally, the pilot received recurrent training on October 12, 2007, which included 0.5 hours of ground instruction and 0.5 hours of flight recurrent training on "banner pick profile and procedures," which was conducted by the company's chief pilot. The chief pilot noted, "At issue is [the pilot's] picking a banner with the main gear. [The pilot] did a successful job demonstrating safe operational procedures." A statement submitted to the IIC by the company's Director of Operations confirmed that the accident pilot "...did in fact have an issue back in October 07, when operating in Waco, Texas, he picked a banner up with the main gear and had to land with the banner."

"The examination revealed that no anomalies existed with the airplane, which would have precluded normal operation. "

The pilot, who was trained, who had flown banners for 250 hours, and who had recently undergone recurrent training, had made the same mistake before, by not following the company procedures On scene witnesses, including a Van Wagner pilot, noted the same thing in their observations, including the pilot's failure to follow procedure once he had improperly hooked the tow rope on his gear.

He knew the procedure, had been trained in it, and had been given recurrent training. I doubt the 1,500 bucks would have helped him or kept him alive.

It's no the job that's dangerous. It's the pilot. As always.

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

You have to fly the airplane, any job is dangerous if you don't do that..
It's tough to say what happened without being in the airplane, and I've never made the mistake of picking up on the mains, I've seen people do it and successfully land. I've picked up with the tow hook rope rapped around the tailwheel and the rudder went full deflection to one side, I wasn't able to overcome the force holding the rudder but was able to continue climbing and leveled off and turned the plane around and landed in a slight turn, that was with a panel and trailing letter banner. I never let the wing stop flying, that would've killed me.

I don't feel banner towing is dangerous, in fact I feel it's a very safe and extremely fun job in a Cub with at least 150 horsepower. I have at least 1000 hours.. probably closer to 1500 hours doing it, never counted but must be several hundred banner pickups.

It's tough to say what happened without being in the plane, godspeed to the pilot.

 

[doog]

Is this the procedure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YyMH167rPw

Hard for me to see how one could catch the rope on the mains?

 

[avbug]

That's the gist of it, though there are two ways to lay the banner. The way it's prepped in the video provides a greater chance for entanglement and snagging the banner, and isn't possible with a long banner.

Catching the wheel(s) may occur because of too low an approach, too flat an approach, too late a rotation to climb out, misjudging the pickup, etc.

 

[Super_Cub_2414P]

Is this the procedure? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YyMH167rPw

Hard for me to see how one could catch the rope on the mains?

That's exactly how we did it, fun stuff.

Good vision is detrimental to that type of pickup though, getting to low or rotating late can be trouble, you have to be precise, not much room for error.