Bad day at the FSDO for the Initial CFI

[Alchemy]

Went to the FSDO for my CFI checkride on thursday. It didn't go well at all. All my paperwork was in order but when the maintenance inspector went to examine the aircraft (a c182rg) he came back with 7 (!!!!) discrepencies. To top it off, the plane had just come out of a 100 hour. Needless to say, the Examiner and Maintenance inspector didn't have too many nice things to say about the flight school or the mechanic after that (although they didn't seem to be familiar with the flight school when I told them which one it was).

Basically, my checkride turned into an incident investigation. Both my examiner and the maintenance inspector were taking numerous pictures of the aircraft and started writing reports. The inspector jumped all over me and asked if I had even done a preflight before I flew the plane to the FSDO. He told me that he should technically write me up for a violation or at least fail my checkride for bringing an unairworthy aircraft, but since I was "just a kid" he was going to let me off the hook. I had to give him a written statement about the condition of the airplane on a blank piece of paper. I wrote:

"The discrepencies pointed out on N***** by the FAA on February 22, 2004 were not observed to be present during my pre-flight inspection of the aircraft on February 21, 2004".

The discrepencies pointed out were

1. Oil in the cockpit due to a bad seal on the oil pressure gauge.

2. Low Nose strut (there was still about 1.5-2" of chrome showing)

3. Loose housing for the left nav light

4. Exposed safety wire in the nose gear door bay.

5. One missing rivet on the left mid-fuselage

6. One loose rivet and loose panel on the left-mid fuselage

7. Various screws missing throughout the aircraft.



I didn't recieve a letter of discontinuance and the inspector treated the whole thing as if the practical test had never started. The airplane is still in maintenance at the airport where the FSDO is located. With the approval of the owner, I opted to have the plane repaired there and drive myself back home rather than obtain a ferry permit.

Personally, I think the inspectors were put-off as soon as they saw the airplane....it had dead bugs on the front of the fuselage and the leading edge of the wings, and as usual, had quite a dirty underside. From the moment they laid eyes on the plane it was a down hill slide. They said I should find another airplane and another flight school if I wanted to try to get my CFI certificate. Unfortunatly, my only real choice is to have all the discrepencies on this airplane repaired, have it cleaned spotlessly, and hope it recieves a warmer reception from the feds next time......

In any event, I will fill out a NASA form just in case they do decide to turn around and violate me. I didn't make that written statement voluntarily.....the examiner told me I needed to make one and at that point I was just nodding my head and saying "yes sir" to everything he asked of me.

The examiner also told me "take a good luck at all those business jets on the ramp. There's no reason why your aircraft shouldn't be in just as clean and in the same condition as those airplanes. 1 in every 300 airframes will kill someone this year. Do you want to become a statistic? You're flying a jalopy through the air."



Any advice about how to go about getting my CFI certificate would be appreciated. It will take me some time to work up the confidence to go back to that FSDO for another checkride. I feel lucky just to have walked away with my pilot certificate still in hand and no violations on my record.

Thanks

 

[Socalplt]

How about going to a DE instead of the FSDO.

Recently, there was an examiner and former SkyWest pilot killed during a checkride he was giving. Maybe word of this has gotten around and everybody is being a little more carefull.

 

[flynryan15]

wow

I think you just discribed most every rental plane out there. And $hit forget about the cargo planes.

 

[bobbysamd]

"We're from the FAA and we're here to help . . . . "

I had to give him a written statement about the condition of the airplane on a blank piece of paper. I wrote:

"The discrepencies pointed out on N***** by the FAA on February 22, 2004 were not observed to be present during my pre-flight inspection of the aircraft on February 21, 2004".

The discrepencies pointed out were . . . .
5. One missing rivet on the left mid-fuselage

6. One loose rivet and loose panel on the left-mid fuselage

7. Various screws missing throughout the aircraft.

In all fairness, I've had experiences where aircraft have been grounded because of loose or missing screws and rivets. These incidents are far more common than you might think. Although the airplane may have just come out of 100-hour, it indeed might not have been in as a good a shape as one might hope.

Just the same, I second the above suggestion. See if you can go to a DE next time . . . and maybe with a different airplane.

These are the kinds of situations that turn off people to aviation. Best of luck with your next shot at your practical - you deserve it.

 

[labbats]

I've never heard of anyone going to a DE for an initial CFI checkride. I was under the impression (falsely?) that you were required to head to the FSDO to complete your initial CFI rating.

 

[Alchemy]

The way I understand it is that you must go the FSDO for you initial CFI checkride. If the FSDO cannot accomodate you and give you a test within 2 weeks of your request, then they can refer you to a certain approved FIE (Flight instructor Examiner). Normally, FIE's are only allowed to give checkrides for additional category/class add-ons and recurrent certification. However, only in the special event that the FSDO cannot accomodate you within 2 weeks can CERTAIN FIE's give inital CFI checkrides.

Again, the only way I could possibly avoid taking this at a FSDO is if for some reason they couldn't accomodate me within 2 weeks of my request or if I was at a 141 school that had in house examining authority. Avoiding the FSDO doesn't seem likely since my district isn't exactly known for a large quantity of flight training. Again, it's possible I'm wrong about this but this is my understanding of the situation.

Regarding the grounding of the airplane: I can definitely see a need to do it because of the oil leak and safety wire loose in the nose gear bay. I would never fly the airplane if I observed those problems. However, I'm curious as to why one loose rivet and one missing rivet as well as a loose nav light housing and an "allegedly" low nose gear strut (still had 2" of chrome showing)would ground the airplane.

 

[Ralgha]

I (or rather my instructor) went straight to a DE. Didn't even consider the FSDO for my checkride as far as I know.

 

[Checks]

My FAA CFI checkride was the easiest I have ever taken. Plus it was free. Lets be honest, the DE's actually know what they are talking about while a lot of FAA people dont have a clue.
Get the plane fixed and take it with the FDSO.

 

[labbats]

Sounds to me like they grounded the plane due to aesthetics. Did you dress up too? If not, they saw you and the plane as unprofessional and went out of their way to stop you from completing the exam. It's a lousy thing to do.

 

[Alchemy]

I was wearing a brand new polo shirt tucked in with a belt and jeans, not a shirt and tie or anything but I'd hardly say I looked sloppy.

 

[Mogus]

Recently, there was an examiner and former SkyWest pilot killed during a checkride he was giving. Maybe word of this has gotten around and everybody is being a little more carefull.

This happened very near where I live. In fact, I was actually going to take my checkride with this particular examiner for a while, but ended up taking it with his good buddy. Since there were no skid marks, the investigators are speculating that the crash resulted from a flat spin, not any form of structural failure.

 

[Socalplt]

Regarding the accident -- I had heard there had been a witness that had seen the aircraft come down on fire. However, I'm going to assume this is inaccurate information from the media services.

As for the initial CFI, I did mine with DE back in 1998 out of Van Nuys.

 

[bobbysamd]

CFI initials with DEs

There are places, such as Sheble Aviation, where you can take your initial with a DE. I realize that Sheble may not be the best example, but it was the first that came to mind.

I must have trained at least a dozen initial CFI students when I instructed at ERAU in Prescott. I do not believe that any of them had to go to the SDL FSDO. They all went to either one of two DEs. I trained three initial CFIs while I was at FSI in Vero. All three went to a local (asshole) DE. It probably depends on how particular the local FSDO is about examining initial CFI applicants itself.

 

[jdog78]

I live about 2 miles from a FSDO and it is my understanding that you are not required to take the initial with an inspector. You may take it with a DE. Some people may confuse that with 141 schools with self-examining authority...they are not allowed to administer initial checkrides.
I would just pay to go with the DE. I had a very positive experience with my FSDO and i'm very sorry to hear that yours is being less than kind. Best of luck with your ride.

-j

 

[Alchemy]

I should've had the airplane taken to the FSDO for a PACE inspection before I took it for my checkride. During a PACE, they will point out any discrepencies in the airplane without writing the pilot and owner up for violations, then give you a ferry permit to fly it back. If you take an aircraft to the checkride with existing violations, they *are* supposed to write both the pilto and the owner up for violations. Guess I just lucked out. I really don't think the FSDO inspectors were trying to be uncooperative or unfair, infact I appreciate their generosity.

The bottom line is I did not have the airplane in good enough condition before I took it to the FSDO. It's my fault for not having the airplane in perfect shape before I took it, lesson learned, and hopefully I can trudge through this and still get my CFI somehow.

 

[Mogus]

Great attitude, Alchemy. I had a similar experience getting my Private ticket. The examiner called my instructor the morning of my checkride and said my medical was invalid because of a police report on me that happened after my medical, but that involved no criminal activity. I called him up and asked him where he got it and how he can say my medical is invalid, since there's nothing in the regs that says it would be. He couldn't cite anything, but said there's a lot of regulations not in my FAR/AIM (???). Then he got defensive and said his friend, the other DPE, who recently died in a plane wreck north of Cedar City, agrees with him. Since I'm a juvenile, it isn't public record. This guy gets a hold of it via one of his students who works in the police station who also happens to be in my college physics class. Extremely frustrating to say the least. But I didn't have your attitude. Eventually I got the ticket and put it all behind me. You will too.

 

[chuychanga]

You could always get your CFIG (Glider) instead of Airplane. There are only a few CFI glider examiners in the country and so they must send you to a DE. Then you get your CFI Airplane and it's no longer an initial, so you also go to a DE.

By the way, that wasn't Frank from SAT FSDO was it?

 

[npowless]

I live about 2 miles from a FSDO and it is my understanding that you are not required to take the initial with an inspector. You may take it with a DE. Some people may confuse that with 141 schools with self-examining authority...they are not allowed to administer initial checkrides.
I would just pay to go with the DE. I had a very positive experience with my FSDO and i'm very sorry to hear that yours is being less than kind. Best of luck with your ride.

-j

From the sound of this thread, it seams to vary quite a bit - all I know is that I took my initial CFI checkride in-house - we are a 141 school that has self-examining authority.

Nathan

 

[TX_DFW]

Just my opinion,
Before any of my students were sent to the FSDO at PWA, the school would do a pretty good job on the maint inspection, and ALWAYS wash it to clean any oil and bugs off. I never had a problem, sorry to hear you got shafted.

 

[Gulfstream 200]

you were probably the 3rd guy to show up with that ratty airplane and they are pinching the school finally.

It gives them a quota.

go back with another aircraft.

 

[BradG]

The way i understand it, the FSDO generally has the first right of refusal. Should they feel they are too busy to conduct the ride, they can allow you to take it with an appropraitly authorized DE. We have a DE or 2 in the KC area that can administer the initial CFI ride when the FSDO is too busy. But hey, at least with the FED's it free.

 

[JAFI]

I agree with Gulfstream:

"you were probably the 3rd guy to show up with that ratty airplane and they are pinching the school finally.

go back with another aircraft"



As far as the quota comment, I never had to go out and look for ratty airplanes, they just keep showing up.

Alchemy, go find a good airplane, take the exam, then go find some better aircraft and teach.

I would bet they weren't mad at you, they were mad at who ever "maintained" the aircraft.

 

[BrannonCarroll]

I think every state is different. You can go to Florida and can do it with a DE.

You will always find people out there who just want to bust your chops (both FAA guys and DEs). I think your guy was just being a prick.

Also, I think it has to do with the type of flying the FSDO guys has been doing....corporate jet guys flying GIVs would have serious doubts about getting into some of the rental airplanes you find at your local FBOs.

For some of us (myself included), the piece of junk airplanes are all we know and you just try to make the best of it.

The most important thing is this....you do what cha gotta do. If going somewhere else is an option - go somewhere else. If not, wash the airplane, replace the screws and try it again.

Hang in there!

 

[BoilerUP]

Here at Purdue, you can do a CFI checkride with any of the four Purdue-employed FAA DPEs provided you have a Letter of Authorization from IND FSDO. Thats what I did - did both my rides with the same examiner I did my instrument rating with. Worked out well for me.

I recently heard IND now wants 20% of all initial CFI rides. I know personally they have two new inspectors...and I have heard their failure rate is somewhere around 80%. So we shall see....

I have a friend who did his CFI ride with LOU FSDO. Said after his EIGHT hour oral, he was too tired to fly. Came back the next day and passed. Said it was the most stressful two days of his life.


Best of luck!

 

[mizzouguy]

Kid you are very lucky you didn't get a violation and even moreso that nothing bad happened to you in that airplane. As for going to a DPE don't think that is any easier and it shouldn't be. In some cases it is harder because those guys are out there in the real world and know more of what it takes. As far as turning people off from aviation, as bobbysamds suggests, people who rent junk airplanes are the real culprits. Not all rental and training airplanes are junk either. I've sent quite a few guys to the FSDO in a 35+ year old Arrow and never had a complaint. I personally have to take at least 2 checkrides a year with the FSDO and never had a problem with them and they have never had a problem with any of our airplanes. Suck it up and find a better airplane and chock this one up to experience.

 

[Alchemy]

In the airplane's defense, I don't believe it is a "junk airplane", if for no other reason that it has passed this FSDO's inspections at least a dozen times before. There has NEVER been a problem with this airplane before except for one time when someone noticed it needed an STC for aftermarket rosin sun visors. My flight school sends all the CFI applicants to the FSDO in this plane so the FSDO should know it pretty well. I'm not saying the discrepencies don't need to be fixed but I'm not going to condemn what is normally a perfectly safe airplane to the scrap yard over this. I will feel very safe in this airplane once the discrepencies pointed out by the FAA are corrected. If I didn't, I wouldn't fly it.

 

[Alchemy]

Just felt a need to finalize this ancient thread:

I ended up taking my inital CFI checkride at a different FSDO (DAL) with a different inspector. I dressed in a suit and tie the 2nd time.

The oral and flight portions were both very straightforward. I passed with no problems. The maintenance inspector at the DAL FSDO basically took a look at the airplane on the ramp then walked away (although they may have looked at it more critically when I was doing the oral, I don't know). I made sure the airplane was in spotless shape when I took it the 2nd time, and the FSDO inspector even commented, "looks like you keep this plane hangared". I just kind of nodded and said "yeah, looks like it" (airplane hasn't seen a hangar in years, except for mx).

2 weeks later another CFI applicant from my flight school took the airplane back the SAT FSDO, where I had my original problems. The same MX inspector who had grounded the plane weeks earlier this time approved it for the test. The applicant wasn't assigned the same inspector that I was, but he passed.

All in all, I came away from this whole thing with a bit more cynical view of the FAA and aviation in general. I look at everything I do now in aviation with a bit of paranoia. Maybe this is healthy, time will tell.

I also am trying to make it a new flight school policty to make sure every plane is washed regularly, and the night before any of them go out for a checkride. Hopefully we can get on the FSDO's good side and avoid any future conflicts.

 

[Alchemy]

Oh, and one more thing:

Why didn't I just reschedule the checkride with the original inspector at the original FSDO?

After all the discrepencies on the airplane were fixed, I called 3 times over a one week period trying to schedule and never got a call back, wether the inspector was out of town or too busy to call me back, i don't know. Needless to say, I wasn't going to force this guy to give me a checkride when he obviously didn't want to do it.

It all worked out for the best at the other FSDO. Apparantly you can choose whatever FSDO you wish to take a checkride at, it doesn't have to be done in the same district as the address you list on your pilot certificate (I thought it did for a time).

 

[Stifler's Mom]

5. One missing rivet on the left mid-fuselage

6. One loose rivet and loose panel on the left-mid fuselage

7. Various screws missing throughout the aircraft.

Sounds like the majority of the planes I did my training in.

 

[Jedi_Cheese]

You should have tried the "She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts" line out on the inspector. Follow it up with putting on your sunglasses (especially on a cloudy day), kicking the tires, and getting into the aircraft and I would have paid to some money to watch the FSDO's reaction.

PS: congrats on the CFI