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B6 Virtual Basing
- Thread starter 1-tacan-rule
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8vATE
Cruel, Nice, Whatever
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2002
- Posts
- 538
LGB Captains:
Seniority
Days off
credit
avg daily credit
1-33% (003-137)
16.66
83.20
5.80
34-66% (157-237)
17.12
81.53
5.87
67-99% (245-332)
16.63
82.88
5.77
Average
16.80
82.53
5.81
FLL Captains:
1-33% (001-081)
17.64
86.17
6.45
34-66% (082-188)
17.43
85.10
6.27
67-99% (196-516)
15.77
81.71
5.37
Average
16.95
84.33
6.03
Here's Januarys numbers..
Couldn't find feb-march..
Did we get those??
Anyways..
the median is pretty close...
senior guys are better in FLL
junior guys are better in LGB..
trips are more productive in FLL.... but I would suspect that's more about the route structure and flying mix than a conspiracy...
we have some super productive senior trips here...
anyways...
in 15 years of doing this job... i've always thought it best to concentrate on what I can personally control... such as where I live, what base I pick, when I upgrade and how far from base I live or if I want to commute and how I commute...
There will be things outside of your control..... manage your life accordingly...
Commuters have a LOT of disadvantages ..... hopefully living where you want means enough for you...
as far as trip construction.... it is a moving target.... and there is no "perfect" solution for everyone.....
All I can say is .... the pilot group has a LOT of influence here.... hopefully we can keep most people satisfied while maintaining a productive/efficient operation...
If you want to blame everyone else and gripe ....
That's one way to live.... go for it...
You guys don't have jetways in LGB... add that to the list...
But you have a killer crewroom and a putting green..
maybe if we can get a supercomputer then the bids will be done for jfk early..
but don't count on it....
Seniority
Days off
credit
avg daily credit
1-33% (003-137)
16.66
83.20
5.80
34-66% (157-237)
17.12
81.53
5.87
67-99% (245-332)
16.63
82.88
5.77
Average
16.80
82.53
5.81
FLL Captains:
1-33% (001-081)
17.64
86.17
6.45
34-66% (082-188)
17.43
85.10
6.27
67-99% (196-516)
15.77
81.71
5.37
Average
16.95
84.33
6.03
Here's Januarys numbers..
Couldn't find feb-march..
Did we get those??
Anyways..
the median is pretty close...
senior guys are better in FLL
junior guys are better in LGB..
trips are more productive in FLL.... but I would suspect that's more about the route structure and flying mix than a conspiracy...
we have some super productive senior trips here...
anyways...
in 15 years of doing this job... i've always thought it best to concentrate on what I can personally control... such as where I live, what base I pick, when I upgrade and how far from base I live or if I want to commute and how I commute...
There will be things outside of your control..... manage your life accordingly...
Commuters have a LOT of disadvantages ..... hopefully living where you want means enough for you...
as far as trip construction.... it is a moving target.... and there is no "perfect" solution for everyone.....
All I can say is .... the pilot group has a LOT of influence here.... hopefully we can keep most people satisfied while maintaining a productive/efficient operation...
If you want to blame everyone else and gripe ....
That's one way to live.... go for it...
You guys don't have jetways in LGB... add that to the list...
But you have a killer crewroom and a putting green..
maybe if we can get a supercomputer then the bids will be done for jfk early..
but don't count on it....
Last edited:
Of course there's no conspiracy. A conspiracy would suggest secrecy and there is hardly any of that when memos about "whiners" and "crack hoes" are zipping about. A conspiracy would also suggest coordination and I won't comment about that.
The discord you are beginning to hear is all about the haves and the have-nots. As the numbers skew more-and-more to the latter, we will have the inevitable frustration that grows from each person's sense of fair play. Can a few hand picked pilots, some bean counters and THE OPTIMIZER, combined with a zealous sense of "what we are trying to achieve" make balanced decisions to the satisfaction of the majority? Do we have pilot representatives or do we have management pilots? In many cases we have shareholder pilots (pre-IPO) which is even more disconcerting. Do we have pilots who can fight for increased costs like staffing (the thought!!) or do we only believe that every penny will ultimately fall into profit sharing. What costs ARE justified? Apparently HUDS and electronic flight bags are justified. Are twenty more reserve pilots justified? Is a nice supply of open time justified? Is a real insurance plan justified?
Caring should be exercised in both pairing construction and staffing and it should be used to spread wealth across the pilot group. When I read that using the word "caring" for selfish purposes without consideration for shareholders, I am troubled. Staffing and growth have been optimized to the detriment of the pilot group. Most of our troubles with PTO, Premium Pay, and Schedule Flexibility come from understaffing – a temptation that no airline bean counter has ever been able to refuse. Yes, there should be balance, but that's a moving target depending on who you are.
Is there hope for growth in the out-bases, or should we just pull it all back to JFK as suggested in a recent pilot meeting? Because we all seem to agree that out-bases were a benevolent decision based upon QOL, I suppose unhappy pilots should just shut their yaps. Who get's the growth? Who get's the redeyes? Who get's the sweet pairings? Do I have to be a certain shade a blue to even enter the discussion? Do I have to worry about making it into an e-mail discussion that shoots around the pre-IPO sewing circle? Will I get a label? Boo hoo. We already have the inevitable turf wars occurring between pilots in different bases – usually between very senior pilots and their huge sense of entitlement. Junior guys (bottom 80%) just shake their heads at the prospect of arguing over schedule variety.
Let's start getting the expectations right from the beginning because we are starting to miss the mark for more pilots every day. My own expectations (set by jetBlue during hiring and indoc) have not even come close to being met. Do I have a semi-secure job with decent pay? Of course, and I wouldn't change that, and I appreciate that but if that's all I can expect then tell me that. I'm a big boy. Don't have your senior guys who pull down 90 hours and a 10% override running around telling everyone how great everything is. The crew lounge is full of pilots with lowered expectations. And NO we don't need to find employment elsewhere if we don't like it. Someone who makes this suggestion is just begging for a union.
The primary problem right now is that most of us were hired with a set of expectations that included:
This is where we begin to divide into those who's expectations have been met and those whose expectations are having to be modified – in some cases by pilots who's expectations have been exceeded. When someone from the scheduling committee suggests that there should be a disclaimer on a particular base bid, I have to scratch my head. Since when did bases themselves have any seniority? The expectations that we were given (interview, indoc, White Papers) are the expectations that should be met. If now, we are being asked to lower our expectations or to create a different set of expectations for different bases, then let's get that out there – from the top – not from committee pilots. Let's live the integrity value and be real.
Will the bean counters always make the kind of staffing decisions they are now and are they even aware of our expectations? Are they aware of the White Papers? Will we have opportunities for premium pay across the seniority list or will we improve base pay? Can we expect to improve our insurance and 401K plan or will Health Savings Accounts and profit sharing be weak substitutes?
Going forward, these will be the differences between the haves and the have-nots.
Even the most well-meaning volunteers are not unbiased. And certainly management, when faced with a decision (crewmember vs. shareholder) will have it's biases – witness the insurance decision. Pilots (unfortunately) will often act in their own best interests, or worse, against the interests of other pilots – this isn't speculation, it is reality. I have seen it at countless properties. Which is why when we reach a mass that is no longer able to manage the expectations of the have-nots, something will have to give. Checks and balances – how do you achieve them? Elections? Contracts? Does trust end when you see 150 pilots buying airplanes and yachts, or when those same pilots clean up the schedules with THE OPTIMIZER? Does trust end when your insurance plan gets dropped, or does trust end with a misdirected e-mail? I'm sure it's a different threshold for everybody.
Do we need representation, or should we be thankful and shut-up? Who is we? How will we begin to arrange ourselves? Are there only a few malcontents? Or is the number much larger? What is the difference between malcontent and advocate? Is the administration setting anchors?
I don't think there is a conspiracy at all. I think there are a few people with strong biases making very big decisions about the lives of the have-nots. This won't last forever. It's a game of large numbers now. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it just is.
The discord you are beginning to hear is all about the haves and the have-nots. As the numbers skew more-and-more to the latter, we will have the inevitable frustration that grows from each person's sense of fair play. Can a few hand picked pilots, some bean counters and THE OPTIMIZER, combined with a zealous sense of "what we are trying to achieve" make balanced decisions to the satisfaction of the majority? Do we have pilot representatives or do we have management pilots? In many cases we have shareholder pilots (pre-IPO) which is even more disconcerting. Do we have pilots who can fight for increased costs like staffing (the thought!!) or do we only believe that every penny will ultimately fall into profit sharing. What costs ARE justified? Apparently HUDS and electronic flight bags are justified. Are twenty more reserve pilots justified? Is a nice supply of open time justified? Is a real insurance plan justified?
Caring should be exercised in both pairing construction and staffing and it should be used to spread wealth across the pilot group. When I read that using the word "caring" for selfish purposes without consideration for shareholders, I am troubled. Staffing and growth have been optimized to the detriment of the pilot group. Most of our troubles with PTO, Premium Pay, and Schedule Flexibility come from understaffing – a temptation that no airline bean counter has ever been able to refuse. Yes, there should be balance, but that's a moving target depending on who you are.
Is there hope for growth in the out-bases, or should we just pull it all back to JFK as suggested in a recent pilot meeting? Because we all seem to agree that out-bases were a benevolent decision based upon QOL, I suppose unhappy pilots should just shut their yaps. Who get's the growth? Who get's the redeyes? Who get's the sweet pairings? Do I have to be a certain shade a blue to even enter the discussion? Do I have to worry about making it into an e-mail discussion that shoots around the pre-IPO sewing circle? Will I get a label? Boo hoo. We already have the inevitable turf wars occurring between pilots in different bases – usually between very senior pilots and their huge sense of entitlement. Junior guys (bottom 80%) just shake their heads at the prospect of arguing over schedule variety.
Let's start getting the expectations right from the beginning because we are starting to miss the mark for more pilots every day. My own expectations (set by jetBlue during hiring and indoc) have not even come close to being met. Do I have a semi-secure job with decent pay? Of course, and I wouldn't change that, and I appreciate that but if that's all I can expect then tell me that. I'm a big boy. Don't have your senior guys who pull down 90 hours and a 10% override running around telling everyone how great everything is. The crew lounge is full of pilots with lowered expectations. And NO we don't need to find employment elsewhere if we don't like it. Someone who makes this suggestion is just begging for a union.
The primary problem right now is that most of us were hired with a set of expectations that included:
- Pay for performance – use 85 hours as your guide – The Blend.
- Schedule flexibility – plenty of reserves to ensure this.
- Open time – plenty of reserves to ensure this as well.
- Insurance that would improve.
- Rapid growth will equate to great schedules and big pay.
This is where we begin to divide into those who's expectations have been met and those whose expectations are having to be modified – in some cases by pilots who's expectations have been exceeded. When someone from the scheduling committee suggests that there should be a disclaimer on a particular base bid, I have to scratch my head. Since when did bases themselves have any seniority? The expectations that we were given (interview, indoc, White Papers) are the expectations that should be met. If now, we are being asked to lower our expectations or to create a different set of expectations for different bases, then let's get that out there – from the top – not from committee pilots. Let's live the integrity value and be real.
Will the bean counters always make the kind of staffing decisions they are now and are they even aware of our expectations? Are they aware of the White Papers? Will we have opportunities for premium pay across the seniority list or will we improve base pay? Can we expect to improve our insurance and 401K plan or will Health Savings Accounts and profit sharing be weak substitutes?
Going forward, these will be the differences between the haves and the have-nots.
- A schedule that doesn't wreck havoc with your body vs. a schedule that affects you even when you're home playing with your kids.
- A healthy PTO bank vs. an empty bank that is spent to even out the stress.
- A healthy bank account and a naturally happy outlook vs. a second job.
- Anxiety over stock price vs. complete disregard for stock price.
- An appreciation for premium pay vs. an appreciation for base pay.
- A disdain for anyone who seems unhappy with the setup vs. a very realistic understanding of why the haves do not want to upset the apple cart.
- A strong seniority defense (for haves) vs. a strong sense of fair play.
- A love of AMP vs. contempt for AMP. Boon for some, tool for others.
- Lot's of time for rest and relaxation vs. total burn out.
Even the most well-meaning volunteers are not unbiased. And certainly management, when faced with a decision (crewmember vs. shareholder) will have it's biases – witness the insurance decision. Pilots (unfortunately) will often act in their own best interests, or worse, against the interests of other pilots – this isn't speculation, it is reality. I have seen it at countless properties. Which is why when we reach a mass that is no longer able to manage the expectations of the have-nots, something will have to give. Checks and balances – how do you achieve them? Elections? Contracts? Does trust end when you see 150 pilots buying airplanes and yachts, or when those same pilots clean up the schedules with THE OPTIMIZER? Does trust end when your insurance plan gets dropped, or does trust end with a misdirected e-mail? I'm sure it's a different threshold for everybody.
Do we need representation, or should we be thankful and shut-up? Who is we? How will we begin to arrange ourselves? Are there only a few malcontents? Or is the number much larger? What is the difference between malcontent and advocate? Is the administration setting anchors?
I don't think there is a conspiracy at all. I think there are a few people with strong biases making very big decisions about the lives of the have-nots. This won't last forever. It's a game of large numbers now. I'm not saying this is good or bad, it just is.
8vATE
Cruel, Nice, Whatever
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2002
- Posts
- 538
A good previous posting...
I can relate to a lot of what you say...
I think the leadership (pilot recruitment) has dropped the ball by not being realistic with the information given to some interviewers..
The truth is..
the initial 100-200 have had a fantastic payoff in their "experience"..
and i give most of them credit for a job well done and they earned every cent of their payoff and seniority..
for most of us and those that follow... the "experience" will be a diminishing one.... longer upgrades... lower proportional growth rates...
having gone through a furlough and having been a student of the airline business since a kid...
I try to be realistic... look around me.... and realize the glory days are over...
this is a relatively good if not great place to be if you want to be in this industry...
i am MOST concerned about managing a sustainable and profitable business plan... in a truly dsyfunctional industry...
hopefully..... we will all keep that foremost in our minds....
I agree with a lot of what you said...
supposively there is a fancy staffing program that is supposed to address our hiring/crewing needs.....
we are all in this together.... even if some of the "senior" folks are clueless already....
I can relate to a lot of what you say...
I think the leadership (pilot recruitment) has dropped the ball by not being realistic with the information given to some interviewers..
The truth is..
the initial 100-200 have had a fantastic payoff in their "experience"..
and i give most of them credit for a job well done and they earned every cent of their payoff and seniority..
for most of us and those that follow... the "experience" will be a diminishing one.... longer upgrades... lower proportional growth rates...
having gone through a furlough and having been a student of the airline business since a kid...
I try to be realistic... look around me.... and realize the glory days are over...
this is a relatively good if not great place to be if you want to be in this industry...
i am MOST concerned about managing a sustainable and profitable business plan... in a truly dsyfunctional industry...
hopefully..... we will all keep that foremost in our minds....
I agree with a lot of what you said...
supposively there is a fancy staffing program that is supposed to address our hiring/crewing needs.....
we are all in this together.... even if some of the "senior" folks are clueless already....
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
"even if some of the "senior" folks are clueless already...."
Being somewhat "senior", I think that is a pretty harsh statement. My apologies that I got here before you.
Airlines are seniority driven, someone gets stuck working Christmas, redeyes etc., that is simply how the cookie crumbles. It is not about fair, it is just the way it is.
Cetainly we can all agree, that some pairings are not good. That is unfortunate, but those pairings have to be manned and flown otherwise, we end up with a very limited schedule and in the long term no airline.
While "realistic" makes some excellent observations, there are certain things in his comments, and I may be reading between the lines, that has a somewhat hollow ring to it and reminds of what I have seen other places, particularily considering the melt down we are currently seeing in aviation.
It is late and I have to go to bed. After all, I got have to go fly on of those fancy "senior" trips tomorrow.
Being somewhat "senior", I think that is a pretty harsh statement. My apologies that I got here before you.
Airlines are seniority driven, someone gets stuck working Christmas, redeyes etc., that is simply how the cookie crumbles. It is not about fair, it is just the way it is.
Cetainly we can all agree, that some pairings are not good. That is unfortunate, but those pairings have to be manned and flown otherwise, we end up with a very limited schedule and in the long term no airline.
While "realistic" makes some excellent observations, there are certain things in his comments, and I may be reading between the lines, that has a somewhat hollow ring to it and reminds of what I have seen other places, particularily considering the melt down we are currently seeing in aviation.
It is late and I have to go to bed. After all, I got have to go fly on of those fancy "senior" trips tomorrow.
this is the same type of thing that happened at SWA in the last negotiation....the haves....wanting to protect the price of their options were less interested in actual payrates because they were banking more on stock fluctuations....the have nots were obviously more interested in pay because of the diluted effect of their stock options.....
a point can be made that those who were the have's and were hired at the beginning took incredible risk to go to a start up...whether SWA or JB....especially when all the legacies were hiring in record numbers...but when the haves are outnumbered 4 to 1, the tides will and should turn toward the majority and addressing issues relevant to the majority....
i think it is probably a good idea for the haves not to be bragging too much about vacation homes, RV's, fancy boats and planes when flying with this other "majority" it will continue to perpetuate the problem and create irritations.
a point can be made that those who were the have's and were hired at the beginning took incredible risk to go to a start up...whether SWA or JB....especially when all the legacies were hiring in record numbers...but when the haves are outnumbered 4 to 1, the tides will and should turn toward the majority and addressing issues relevant to the majority....
i think it is probably a good idea for the haves not to be bragging too much about vacation homes, RV's, fancy boats and planes when flying with this other "majority" it will continue to perpetuate the problem and create irritations.
1-tacan-rule
Well-known member
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2004
- Posts
- 90
I Don't Get It....
And I'm not trying to be a provocateur...really.
What on earth are you (Realistic) trying to say...that Sr guys get the good trips? Duh. That there is no seniority at bases? Of course there is.
Like Dizel said, that (seniority) is the nature of the game.
What "expectations" are unfulfilled? Don't you have the same 401k/healthcare/etc. now that you had when you were hired?
As far as hiring expectations...companies will always have huge expectations about hiring...it's the sign of a healthy company, and they will always tell you that they will continue to hire (which in JBs case, I believe they intend to indeed hire/expand like they say).
What's the rub?
And I'm not trying to be a provocateur...really.
What on earth are you (Realistic) trying to say...that Sr guys get the good trips? Duh. That there is no seniority at bases? Of course there is.
Like Dizel said, that (seniority) is the nature of the game.
What "expectations" are unfulfilled? Don't you have the same 401k/healthcare/etc. now that you had when you were hired?
As far as hiring expectations...companies will always have huge expectations about hiring...it's the sign of a healthy company, and they will always tell you that they will continue to hire (which in JBs case, I believe they intend to indeed hire/expand like they say).
What's the rub?
8vATE
Cruel, Nice, Whatever
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2002
- Posts
- 538
Just my observations Dizel...
For instance...
I hope you know that there are a significant group of guys with options with exercise prices in the mid $40s...
I hope you realize that upgrades are at 5 a month (temporarily)... and that new hires are looking at 3+ years...
Our instructors in MIA are overloaded... doing double periods, enduring multiple reschedulings and are "asked" to take on all kinds of projects ..
I had a "senior" guy ask me one day why leadership makes a big deal out of a no furlough committment from the company...
He got his.... doesn't realize how important that committment could be to a newhire...
Hey... its human nature to fixate on oneself....
I'm just commenting that we all need to communicate, educate and work things out together...
I've worked where all the perks were given to lineholders... the reserves were crapped on..
I would like to see a more level playing field... of course seniority rules...
but some of these guys forget quickly...
FWIW...
For instance...
I hope you know that there are a significant group of guys with options with exercise prices in the mid $40s...
I hope you realize that upgrades are at 5 a month (temporarily)... and that new hires are looking at 3+ years...
Our instructors in MIA are overloaded... doing double periods, enduring multiple reschedulings and are "asked" to take on all kinds of projects ..
I had a "senior" guy ask me one day why leadership makes a big deal out of a no furlough committment from the company...
He got his.... doesn't realize how important that committment could be to a newhire...
Hey... its human nature to fixate on oneself....
I'm just commenting that we all need to communicate, educate and work things out together...
I've worked where all the perks were given to lineholders... the reserves were crapped on..
I would like to see a more level playing field... of course seniority rules...
but some of these guys forget quickly...
FWIW...
1-tacan-rule said:
I think his point is that seniority entitles you to a lot, but it doesn't entitle the top 20% to drive the decisions being made for the majority. Decisions need to be made with the entire pilot group's wants and needs in mind. After the needs of the whole are met, the senior guy can go in and scoop up whatever he wants. That is what his seniority entitles him to.
Side note on the health care... It's not the same. The cost has gone up 135% in two years, and the benefits have drastically gone down.
Realistic,
Outstanding comments. I think you have said it all.
Dizel8
Yes, the life blood of the airlines is seniority. Its been that way for ever and I don't see it changing anytime soon. However when I hear/read some constantly bring up "SENIORITY" as their defense for what ills us, I just want to puke!!! Seniority comes with its benefits. However seniority should be the difference between:
18 days off a month vs 16 days off,
90 hours per month vs 85.
getting xmas off vs having to work on xmas.
and the like....
Any difference between what is good vs what is great is excess. If the few "haves" don't help or show concern for the "have nots" in the company, soon the majority (lower 80%) might look for outside help. Then comes the inflexiblity of formal negotiations , representation, strick work rules, etc. None of us want that, but 80-90% of the fairness needs to be evenly distributed thru the companies' entire seniority. If it is not, then everything you, management and other preach about values is a lie (or at least a overstatement).
FNG
Outstanding comments. I think you have said it all.
Dizel8
Yes, the life blood of the airlines is seniority. Its been that way for ever and I don't see it changing anytime soon. However when I hear/read some constantly bring up "SENIORITY" as their defense for what ills us, I just want to puke!!! Seniority comes with its benefits. However seniority should be the difference between:
18 days off a month vs 16 days off,
90 hours per month vs 85.
getting xmas off vs having to work on xmas.
and the like....
Any difference between what is good vs what is great is excess. If the few "haves" don't help or show concern for the "have nots" in the company, soon the majority (lower 80%) might look for outside help. Then comes the inflexiblity of formal negotiations , representation, strick work rules, etc. None of us want that, but 80-90% of the fairness needs to be evenly distributed thru the companies' entire seniority. If it is not, then everything you, management and other preach about values is a lie (or at least a overstatement).
FNG
8vATE
Cruel, Nice, Whatever
- Joined
- Feb 24, 2002
- Posts
- 538
Hutcha said:
I agree... but there are a LOT of different wants and needs to balance....
And once you balance them... there is no guarantee that your own individual seniority will get you what you desire....
I don't believe the top 20% are throwing the rest of us to the wolves..
All these wants and needs need to be met while also being profitable and efficient....
as far as health care goes....
neeleman has said many times that health care costs are spiralling out of control..... We will never have the coverage/benefits that we all had at legacy carriers five years ago....
I hope you guys are using the health saving accounts to the maximum possible....
My post was not intended to incite seniority wars. It was less about division of wealth (although that is an issue) and more about broken promises. Although I have issues with a very senior pilot trying to dictate what's best for ALL of us, I have a big problem with the way our last contract was pitched.
JetBlue went to great lengths to describe all of the benefits and all of the reasons why our base pay is so low. We were told that with all of these enhancements, our total compensation is actually quite good. I'm just finding that I really don't enjoy ANY of the enhancements. My stocks worthless, I get about five hours of premium pay every month, I can't touch my profit sharing but it's only a little over $4000 and it may be zero at some point, my next six raises as a captain have been swallowed up by my out of pocket medical expenses, I'm getting about 13 days off when you factor in the commute so I could'nt pick up open time if there was any, and my PTO bank is empty from trying to manage my life. To be sure, I'm not saying all of this to be a whiner. Again, I'm very happy to have a job. I'm saying all of this to point out that I have become KEENLY aware of base pay. Base pay is what I've got and it's really what I myself would prefer to have more of - even at the expense of the perks that are repeated over and over by JetBlue.
YES - I WAS told during my interview that our insurance was lacking but that it would improve. It did not. Health Savings Accounts and Co-Insurance SUCK! What's wrong with a good old fashioned HMO. And where's the reduced premiums that are supposed to come along with this "forward looking" health plan. I have to believe that hundreds of crewmembers have jumped ship by now or they soon will. Will that savings be reflected in our premiums going forward - or will it magically show up in my profit sharing balance?
I was also told - along with many other pilots - that I could expect my pay to look like that of a Southwest Pilot. I remember clearly being told that "the mix" was based on 85 hours of pay because this is what a pilot could expect to fly at jetBlue. I also remember someone describing at great length what a fantastic schedule I was going to have because we were going to be industry leading in terms of flexiblity and productivity. None of this has come to pass and as I look up the seniority list I don't see many of my compatriots doing a whole lot better than I am. However, if I look WAY up the seniority list, I see Mardi Gras baby!
If you liquidated all of my benefits tomorrow and sunk them dollar for dollar into base pay, I would be thrilled. Base pay is what I live my life around. The other stuff is just fluff for the White Papers and the top 10%. I'm dropping the insurance next month anyway. My wife has a union job.
Only my two pennies - the one's I got back from my little girl's doctor.
JetBlue went to great lengths to describe all of the benefits and all of the reasons why our base pay is so low. We were told that with all of these enhancements, our total compensation is actually quite good. I'm just finding that I really don't enjoy ANY of the enhancements. My stocks worthless, I get about five hours of premium pay every month, I can't touch my profit sharing but it's only a little over $4000 and it may be zero at some point, my next six raises as a captain have been swallowed up by my out of pocket medical expenses, I'm getting about 13 days off when you factor in the commute so I could'nt pick up open time if there was any, and my PTO bank is empty from trying to manage my life. To be sure, I'm not saying all of this to be a whiner. Again, I'm very happy to have a job. I'm saying all of this to point out that I have become KEENLY aware of base pay. Base pay is what I've got and it's really what I myself would prefer to have more of - even at the expense of the perks that are repeated over and over by JetBlue.
YES - I WAS told during my interview that our insurance was lacking but that it would improve. It did not. Health Savings Accounts and Co-Insurance SUCK! What's wrong with a good old fashioned HMO. And where's the reduced premiums that are supposed to come along with this "forward looking" health plan. I have to believe that hundreds of crewmembers have jumped ship by now or they soon will. Will that savings be reflected in our premiums going forward - or will it magically show up in my profit sharing balance?
I was also told - along with many other pilots - that I could expect my pay to look like that of a Southwest Pilot. I remember clearly being told that "the mix" was based on 85 hours of pay because this is what a pilot could expect to fly at jetBlue. I also remember someone describing at great length what a fantastic schedule I was going to have because we were going to be industry leading in terms of flexiblity and productivity. None of this has come to pass and as I look up the seniority list I don't see many of my compatriots doing a whole lot better than I am. However, if I look WAY up the seniority list, I see Mardi Gras baby!
If you liquidated all of my benefits tomorrow and sunk them dollar for dollar into base pay, I would be thrilled. Base pay is what I live my life around. The other stuff is just fluff for the White Papers and the top 10%. I'm dropping the insurance next month anyway. My wife has a union job.
Only my two pennies - the one's I got back from my little girl's doctor.
Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
Dizel,
The dialogue we are having has happened countless times at countless properties. It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. History will repeat itself. If you think I'm selfish, that wouldn't be anything new just as my opinion of feather-beding is old hat. Pilots are pilots. For that matter, humans are humans.
And so it goes.
The dialogue we are having has happened countless times at countless properties. It shouldn't be a surprise to anybody. History will repeat itself. If you think I'm selfish, that wouldn't be anything new just as my opinion of feather-beding is old hat. Pilots are pilots. For that matter, humans are humans.
And so it goes.
Realistic,
Not only are you selfish, you are short sighted and impatient. How did you get on the property? Because you just don't get it. The " fluff " is for the good times. The base pay is for now, so that we can maintain our growth when times are tough. We are doing all we can to maintain a thin sliver of profit and to avoid falling into the abyss like everyone else. Suck it up Cupcake. First,tell me again how it's the senior persons fault for your lot in life. You are very entertaining.
Not only are you selfish, you are short sighted and impatient. How did you get on the property? Because you just don't get it. The " fluff " is for the good times. The base pay is for now, so that we can maintain our growth when times are tough. We are doing all we can to maintain a thin sliver of profit and to avoid falling into the abyss like everyone else. Suck it up Cupcake. First,tell me again how it's the senior persons fault for your lot in life. You are very entertaining.
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Dizel8
Douglas metal
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2003
- Posts
- 2,817
I guess we should tell the rampers and the customer service agents that aren't going to the doctor anymore to just be patient. I'm sure they understand how we're all in this together and how we're all sharing the pain.
If you're telling me that at some point in the future, the perks will filter down to ALL of us - as long as we're patient - excuse me if I'm a bit skeptical. I've been at three airlines that promised the world and delivered some base pay. My problem is really not with the perks themsleves or even with those who seem to be enjoying them (even in these tough times) - my problem really is with the promises.
When you get past the culture and the rhetoric - this is all starting to look very familiar.
Patience is not the issue in my case. I've been patient for two decades and I don't expect anything than what I have right now. Hell, ten years ago I thought I was going to be a regional pilot for the rest of my life. I'm very lucky.
I can live on 75 hours of pay till I'm 60 and I've already lowered my expectations to a level that let's me sleep at night. I don't know about some of the FO's I've flown with though - they're gettin a little jumpy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How did you make it on to this property?"
Now there's a statement unique to jetBlue.
Guys like this assume that because I'm raising issues that aren't shiny and blue, there must be something wrong with me. "Surely, he's not providing the jetBlue experience. Maybe he's a weak stick. Is he cleaning the cabin?" Don't worry. I take care of my customers and I take care of my crew and I love my company. I'm a little concerned about the McCarthy'ism we've got goin on here though.
I feel like I'm in a dysfunctional family with an alcoholic father and a pill popping mother - if we all just talk about other things then there isn't any problem.
Who should be on this property? Someone who raises legitimate issues and concerns or someone who completely disregards the integrity value (with immunity) in the conduct of their committee asignments? I sit at the bar with some of the "blue'est" pilots in the company and listen to some unbelievable statements come out of their mouths - statements completely lacking in values - and in the next breath I will hear "so-and-so isn't with the program. How did he get on this property." I've seen specific problems with integrity across the company and yet, I'm the problem, because I won't shut up and make donuts. I have no doubt that if I stuck my head out far enough, it would get chopped right off. Probably by someone with truly limited values.
I've "spoken up" in surveys.
I've "spoken up" through e-mails.
I've "spoken up" by voice mail.
I've "spoken up" on what appears to be the only public forum that B6 pilots seem to post.
I've done my civic duty.
Time marches on, it's 72 degrees, it's Thursday, the kids are in day care, and I have a tee time for 9 am.
If you're telling me that at some point in the future, the perks will filter down to ALL of us - as long as we're patient - excuse me if I'm a bit skeptical. I've been at three airlines that promised the world and delivered some base pay. My problem is really not with the perks themsleves or even with those who seem to be enjoying them (even in these tough times) - my problem really is with the promises.
When you get past the culture and the rhetoric - this is all starting to look very familiar.
Patience is not the issue in my case. I've been patient for two decades and I don't expect anything than what I have right now. Hell, ten years ago I thought I was going to be a regional pilot for the rest of my life. I'm very lucky.
I can live on 75 hours of pay till I'm 60 and I've already lowered my expectations to a level that let's me sleep at night. I don't know about some of the FO's I've flown with though - they're gettin a little jumpy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
"How did you make it on to this property?"
Now there's a statement unique to jetBlue.
Guys like this assume that because I'm raising issues that aren't shiny and blue, there must be something wrong with me. "Surely, he's not providing the jetBlue experience. Maybe he's a weak stick. Is he cleaning the cabin?" Don't worry. I take care of my customers and I take care of my crew and I love my company. I'm a little concerned about the McCarthy'ism we've got goin on here though.
I feel like I'm in a dysfunctional family with an alcoholic father and a pill popping mother - if we all just talk about other things then there isn't any problem.
Who should be on this property? Someone who raises legitimate issues and concerns or someone who completely disregards the integrity value (with immunity) in the conduct of their committee asignments? I sit at the bar with some of the "blue'est" pilots in the company and listen to some unbelievable statements come out of their mouths - statements completely lacking in values - and in the next breath I will hear "so-and-so isn't with the program. How did he get on this property." I've seen specific problems with integrity across the company and yet, I'm the problem, because I won't shut up and make donuts. I have no doubt that if I stuck my head out far enough, it would get chopped right off. Probably by someone with truly limited values.
I've "spoken up" in surveys.
I've "spoken up" through e-mails.
I've "spoken up" by voice mail.
I've "spoken up" on what appears to be the only public forum that B6 pilots seem to post.
I've done my civic duty.
Time marches on, it's 72 degrees, it's Thursday, the kids are in day care, and I have a tee time for 9 am.
Jumpseater
Active member
- Joined
- Feb 17, 2003
- Posts
- 35
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