B6 PEA Amendment

[Lake Alice]

For every one Tard on this board we have 50 or so "just happy to be here" types. Given our current situation with retirement, 5 documents and scope I'd say the "happy to be here" types have caused substantially more damage to this pilot group.

 

[Blue Dude]

Fiftytard. Can you tell me, outside of a CBA, what you would want that would make you stop complaining. If we had the best retirement and health bennies in the industry would you still complain.

OK, even if we stipulate that we have the best pay, retirement, working conditions, etc., that the industry has ever seen, and it's all guaranteed for life, free laptops, Kew shuttle, etc., etc., etc., ad nauseam, it doesn't mean squat because we're naked after a transactional event. A CBA means different things for different people, but what it means for most is a process whereby we're not utterly exposed, leaderless, voiceless, powerless if we're involved in a TE. No, they're not foolproof, far from it, and there are plenty of situations when a CBA isn't worth the paper it's printed on. That doesn't mean that we can safely ignore the requirement for one.

A CBA is career insurance, period. Sometimes you're in a bad enough situation that no insurance can make you whole, or even standing, but there are plenty of other situations when you'd be a fool not to have it. Right now, we're fools, one fender bender away from losing it all.

 

[Lake Alice]

Well said. Why Fox and his cronies think that Jetblue is going to take care of us is beyond me. They haven't done so in 12 years so why would they going forward. We haven't furloughed because we haven't needed to. Our fleet has grown because we needed to and not to help with pilots career growth. We have charged our employees at least 20% more for insurance than any other carrier. We have provided our employees with an 8-20% shortfall in retirement. We have continued to make our employees pay for their own health insurance while on LTD. We have continued to make sure in the event of a TE our employees are responsible for paying their own legal fees.
Personally I don't see where all the blind faith in Jetblue comes from.

 

[fifty30retard]

Fiftytard. Can you tell me, outside of a CBA, what you would want that would make you stop complaining. If we had the best retirement and health bennies in the industry would you still complain. I would bet you would. It seems that a majority of you guys will just complain about everything and anything. I saw a guy on blue pilots was complaining about the fact that the company might give us our computers for free when we go to IPADS. Complaining about getting a free laptop. Are you kidding me.

Tard you do more harm than good in the approach you are taking.

With a CBA, I will be content. It will give me, my family, and my fellow pilots legal standing in court, collectively. My only complaint then will be having to go on a four day trip with the likes of you, someone who knows nothing of our pilot history, or anything about how airline managers manipulate you on a daily basis.

 

[$$$4nothin]

Well then teach me. Explain airline history to me. All of the history not just your version. I would say I have a pretty good understanding of airline history, but I am always trying to learn more. Here is the thing though. Todays airlines are not the airlines of 20 years ago. The unions aren't the unions of 20 years ago. What I do know is that in the last 10 years I have seen unionized carriers destroy a lot of careers and family's. I havn't seen B6 destroy even one. I have seen CBA's get torn apart and a lot of concessions taken. Other than the move of our premium trigger to 78 hrs from 70 I have only seen B6 pay scales get better not worse. So teach us. Here is the thing though. You want a union so bad because you are scared of the what might happen in the future, not what has happened in the past. In this case a history lesson might not be your best route. I am always open to change and a better way of thinking and opinion. So rather than just complaining and saying the same thing over and over again, tell me something new in a rational manner and persuade me.

 

[Lake Alice]

I'll being up a few points:

Retirement. we are 8-20% behind in retirement. ERISA laws prevent Jetblue from separating employee groups retirement. There is no work around unlike the lies Jetblue spreads unless we have a CBA.
LTD. If you transition from STD to LTD you now pay for your health care for 18 months. For a family, consisting of a husband, wife and child, thats $1300 a month. So your getting 60% or 60 2/3% of your pay and now 1/3 of that goes to insurance.
Sick/vacation time. Not separated. If you have a spouse that works and a young kids how do you accumulate 200 hours. You get sick, kids get sick. Someone has to stay home.
Pay. I won't even touch that.
Health benefits. Why do we pay 20% minimum more than everyone else.

Look, I'm not as angry as Tard and we can go 'round and 'round about his communication methods but he is right. Jetblue is a horrible place when it comes to retirement and benefits. The pay is questionable if you are willing to fly 900-1000 hours per year. That one is personal preference.
I'm going through the disability issues now and compared to our peers this place is absolute joke. It's truly disappointing. When I came here I bought into the idea that we were different and we took care of our own. What we take care of is the executives and thats it.

Lastly and the most important issue is nothing is contractual. We have a PINS email showing what our disability is. That's it. They can simply send out another PINS email next week changing it back.

A CBA is the only way we can negotiate proper benefits. The pro-company pilots at Jetblue don't even want you to have a say if you voted for the union. Call navarre, crane, the bob's and ask them.

Oh yeah, one more thing. If you think the disability thing doesn't affect you then you will be sorely mistaken. I am very young, very healthy and this freak accident has reaffirmed my beliefs about Jetblue. Call it corny but its heartbreaking to know this company can be this disingenuous.

 

[fifty30retard]

Well then teach me. Explain airline history to me. All of the history not just your version. I would say I have a pretty good understanding of airline history, but I am always trying to learn more. Here is the thing though. Todays airlines are not the airlines of 20 years ago. The unions aren't the unions of 20 years ago. What I do know is that in the last 10 years I have seen unionized carriers destroy a lot of careers and family's. I havn't seen B6 destroy even one. I have seen CBA's get torn apart and a lot of concessions taken. Other than the move of our premium trigger to 78 hrs from 70 I have only seen B6 pay scales get better not worse. So teach us. Here is the thing though. You want a union so bad because you are scared of the what might happen in the future, not what has happened in the past. In this case a history lesson might not be your best route. I am always open to change and a better way of thinking and opinion. So rather than just complaining and saying the same thing over and over again, tell me something new in a rational manner and persuade me.

Economics kills airlines, not ALPA. Major airlines lost 25% of revenue post 9/11, when we were attacked. They adjusted by farming out flying jobs to cheaper labor, you. Unions provide legal standing, companies provide jobs. You have a job, but zero legal standing, and you are vulnerable. If you signed your "documents", you just gave away your one year's pay poison pill, and allowed 10% of the ASMs to be farmed out, that's 53 E170s on 37,000 total B6 ASMs. You just gave away 5 years of upgrades, because you trusted a manager.

Oh by the way, airline seats never disappear, they just get absorbed into another airline.

 

[$$$4nothin]

I understand that Tard. Other than assumption and paranoia what makes you so sure that we are going to be farming out all of this flying.

 

[linepilot]

I understand that Tard. Other than assumption and paranoia what makes you so sure that we are going to be farming out all of this flying.

Trust....

....how quaint.

Is your family down with your Norman Rockwell way of thinking?

 

[$$$4nothin]

Not trust per say. However statements are being made with absolutely no factual information. I am just curious if there is any factual information behind the statements that we are going to farm out 10% of our ASM's.

 

[fifty30retard]

Not trust per say. However statements are being made with absolutely no factual information. I am just curious if there is any factual information behind the statements that we are going to farm out 10% of our ASM's.

Your company told you they would like to do so, and you signed documents giving them permission to do so. The 190 is too expensive relative to peer, as in Republic or some other whipsaw agent. You are doomed.

 

[curtaindriver]

Your company told you they would like to do so, and you signed documents giving them permission to do so. The 190 is too expensive relative to peer, as in Republic or some other whipsaw agent. You are doomed.

I completely agree with everything said regarding our poor retirement, our lack of adequate STD, LTD, LOL, etc. Our benefits here are pretty much horrible..................But, I don't think this company has any intention of farming out flying to RAH or anybody else for that matter. The company has too many emails and communications affirming the language of no more than 50 seats or 10% ASM's. They could have done this anytime they wanted before the 5 docs, makes absolutely no sense to push the docs, put out company material and communicades explaining their position and then WHAM, they smack us with it. Sorry, I have many reservations about this place, I'm upset about a lot of things..........but I do not believe in Black Helicopters.

CD

 

[Fubijaakr]

Heck, you don't need to farm out flying...your E-190s are already filling the bill.

 

[Lake Alice]

That's not his fault. He's just trying to get some PIC time so he can go to a major.

 

[curtaindriver]

Heck, you don't need to farm out flying...your E-190s are already filling the bill.

Don't quite understand that statement.......please clarify.

CD

 

[gearjockey]

Heck, you don't need to farm out flying...your E-190s are already filling the bill.

You kinda lost some credibility with that statement. I think I see your problem now. You just don't respect anyone who doesn't fly for a traditional major or legacy. You're going to need the kind of help that doesn't exist here. Try an AA meeting. I think they have some kind of group help for resentments.

 

[Fubijaakr]

You kinda lost some credibility with that statement. I think I see your problem now. You just don't respect anyone who doesn't fly for a traditional major or legacy.

Wrong. I was just making the point that you've incorporated a 100 seat jet into the mix. That's why you don't need to outsource flying to a regional. I wish the major/legacy airlines would figure out that we could do the same thing.

 

[Splert]

Wrong. I was just making the point that you've incorporated a 100 seat jet into the mix. That's why you don't need to outsource flying to a regional. I wish the major/legacy airlines would figure out that we could do the same thing.

Jetblue just wrote language that allowed it to outsource the entire 190 fleet and 75% of the pilot group approved it.

They may not understand what they did, The Fab4 did not want to explain it to the pilot group and Kevin F. was not paid to protect the pilot group's interest and that simply means - if you are on the 190 get off of it now.

 

[curtaindriver]

Wrong. I was just making the point that you've incorporated a 100 seat jet into the mix. That's why you don't need to outsource flying to a regional. I wish the major/legacy airlines would figure out that we could do the same thing.

Thanks for the clarification Fub, I misunderstood it as well.

CD

 

[curtaindriver]

Jetblue just wrote language that allowed it to outsource the entire 190 fleet and 75% of the pilot group approved it.

They may not understand what they did, The Fab4 did not want to explain it to the pilot group and Kevin F. was not paid to protect the pilot group's interest and that simply means - if you are on the 190 get off of it now.

Would you please explain how the documents allow this. The documents are a joke, for sure............but I don't see how JetBlue just wrote language allowing something it has always had the power to do. This is the kind of stuff that drives me nuts, so we should bail off the 190 right now........for what!?!

The language stipulates nothing with 50 seats or greater, or more than 10% ASM's.............outside attorneys said the word "or" can be construed as "either/or" because the company has sent out numerous communications saying exactly this........our own attorney said Sandy's explanation of this suffice's "the litmus test". Why would an attorney put her name on something that was an intentional lie? I'm sorry man, and it sucks I'm actually defending the ridiculous documents.....but this one section is actually better because we had ZERO before it.

CD

 

[Splert]

This section is exactly what we have now. The lawyers just used more words.

The top of the decision tree starts with the simple question.

Is the alter ego a covered alter ego under the terms of Section 15 C.

If not then Section 15 does not apply.

A covered alter ego is one in which Jetblue owns an interest and 'Controls'.

Control is the key definition is a alter ego is covered by Section 15 or or not.

If Jetblue buys 60% of VA and appoints a majority of the officers of VA under Section 15 that is not Control and thereby VA is not a covered alter ego and Section 15 C does not apply and that is what we have now - no protection exept we have a pilot group that thinks we are and keep pointing to 'and'/'or' vs the key trigger and that is the non standard definition of "Control".

You have been played. If you are on the 190 GTF off of it now.

I'm dead serious.

 

[Otto77]

This section is exactly what we have now. The lawyers just used more words.



You have been played. If you are on the 190 GTF off of it now.

I'm dead serious.

Kinda hard when you are seat locked....

 

[fifty30retard]

This section is exactly what we have now. The lawyers just used more words.

The top of the decision tree starts with the simple question.

Is the alter ego a covered alter ego under the terms of Section 15 C.

If not then Section 15 does not apply.

A covered alter ego is one in which Jetblue owns an interest and 'Controls'.

Control is the key definition is a alter ego is covered by Section 15 or or not.

If Jetblue buys 60% of VA and appoints a majority of the officers of VA under Section 15 that is not Control and thereby VA is not a covered alter ego and Section 15 C does not apply and that is what we have now - no protection exept we have a pilot group that thinks we are and keep pointing to 'and'/'or' vs the key trigger and that is the non standard definition of "Control".

You have been played. If you are on the 190 GTF off of it now.

I'm dead serious.

Agreed.

Farming out 10% of 37,000 seats will be an economic necessity, as other E-180 operators are far cheaper.

No more E190 growth also, that means get off it when you can, it's going to die.

 

[Smarta$$]

The company does not want a union. Doing anything like you guys are speculating would be the fastest way to ALPA or some other union.

Time will tell. But I doubt we will see outsourcing beyond cape air and\or some turbo-prop stuff out of SJU.

Also, who cares if the 190 program dies or not. We are all on one seniority list, and although there is some dispute as to whether they COULD furlough out of seniority, to ACTUALLY do so would be the an even faster way to a union. Our planes are full already. Our traffic is growing. They wouldn't park 190's unless they had airbusses to replace them. The company is not going to shrink, and again, to outsource the flying, would guarantee a union, something they don't want.

I personally want a CBA. If I could, I would have voted for ALPA, but this stuff you guys are presenting is tinfoil hat type stuff....

Come on. Stick with reality and arguing for better healthcare and retirement. You just look like idiots otherwise.

If jetblue outsources E180s or furloughs, we WILL have a union, they don't want that. None of that is in our future and none of it fits the company's model.

 

[FurloughedAgain]

Any word on when the window might reopen?

 

[BeachBummer]

The only problem with this arguement is that once it's done, bringing a union on property is moot. Like buying the car insurance after the wreck. If it happens, we won't be jetblue anymore and if anyone is left they will vote on being a part of APA, Teamsters(190goesRAH) SWAPA, FAPA, ALPA, DALPA, or USAPA. Managment couldn't care less what happens after the T/E is signed sealed and delivered. They get a bonus and you get to mop up the rest of your career.

Or he11 maybe there is something to this DR and we staple AA or USA pilots to our list and we all retire 777 captains. I'm not betting on it though.

The company does not want a union. Doing anything like you guys are speculating would be the fastest way to ALPA or some other union.

Time will tell. But I doubt we will see outsourcing beyond cape air and\or some turbo-prop stuff out of SJU.

Also, who cares if the 190 program dies or not. We are all on one seniority list, and although there is some dispute as to whether they COULD furlough out of seniority, to ACTUALLY do so would be the an even faster way to a union. Our planes are full already. Our traffic is growing. They wouldn't park 190's unless they had airbusses to replace them. The company is not going to shrink, and again, to outsource the flying, would guarantee a union, something they don't want.

I personally want a CBA. If I could, I would have voted for ALPA, but this stuff you guys are presenting is tinfoil hat type stuff....

Come on. Stick with reality and arguing for better healthcare and retirement. You just look like idiots otherwise.

If jetblue outsources E180s or furloughs, we WILL have a union, they don't want that. None of that is in our future and none of it fits the company's model.

 

[Smarta$$]

The only problem with this arguement is that once it's done, bringing a union on property is moot. Like buying the car insurance after the wreck. If it happens, we won't be jetblue anymore and if anyone is left they will vote on being a part of APA, Teamsters(190goesRAH) SWAPA, FAPA, ALPA, DALPA, or USAPA. Managment couldn't care less what happens after the T/E is signed sealed and delivered. They get a bonus and you get to mop up the rest of your career.

Or he11 maybe there is something to this DR and we staple AA or USA pilots to our list and we all retire 777 captains. I'm not betting on it though.

No, I agree about your point on a merger or acquisition. Like I said, I am a CBA supporter. I am talking about furloughing 190 pilots or outsourcing E180s. That will not happen. Could we buy someone like Frontier or Virgin? Yep. Could we be swallowed up by Delta, AA or UCAL? Yep. Are we protected? Likely not. Don't know.

 

[doz4dllrs]

Can I get some help with some of your terms? I need a glossary, what is:

PEA
PVC
5 docs

I'm sure there are others. If there is another thread that explains how things are set up over there, please give the link. I'm just trying to understand how the B6 pilot group operates. Thanks.

 

[Flyby1206]

Can I get some help with some of your terms? I need a glossary, what is:

PEA
PVC
5 docs

I'm sure there are others. If there is another thread that explains how things are set up over there, please give the link. I'm just trying to understand how the B6 pilot group operates. Thanks.

PEA- Personal Employment Agreement. Its a 10page brochure that we sign as Day 1 as a newhire. It has stuff in there such as pay rates and very limited work rule language.

PVC- Pilot Values Committee. Think of this as a student council that tells the principle that recess needs to be longer. The principle listens, but doesnt really have to take any suggestions into consideration. The PVC is meant to give us security and feel like we have a LEC/MEC when we really dont.

5 documents. These were ammendments created for our PEAs. The pilot group voted on it and approved them, and then we all had an opportunity to sign the individual ammendment to our contract if we wanted to have these included or not. The 5 docs covered a variety of stuff, but were basically poorly written and full of loopholes. Some topics they covered were Dispute Resolution management, Merger/Transactional event language, seniority list integration, alter ego carriers, and more.

 

[fifty30retard]

The company does not want a union. Doing anything like you guys are speculating would be the fastest way to ALPA or some other union.

Time will tell. But I doubt we will see outsourcing beyond cape air and\or some turbo-prop stuff out of SJU.

Also, who cares if the 190 program dies or not. We are all on one seniority list, and although there is some dispute as to whether they COULD furlough out of seniority, to ACTUALLY do so would be the an even faster way to a union. Our planes are full already. Our traffic is growing. They wouldn't park 190's unless they had airbusses to replace them. The company is not going to shrink, and again, to outsource the flying, would guarantee a union, something they don't want.

I personally want a CBA. If I could, I would have voted for ALPA, but this stuff you guys are presenting is tinfoil hat type stuff....

Come on. Stick with reality and arguing for better healthcare and retirement. You just look like idiots otherwise.

If jetblue outsources E180s or furloughs, we WILL have a union, they don't want that. None of that is in our future and none of it fits the company's model.

The 180s may stay or go but farming out flying with alter ego (your PVC attorneys' opinion, in IAD last month, of true company intentions in the documents) will delay junior FO upgrades for years and years. Stagnation comes with alter ego flying, it is the nature of it, as in, find cheaper pilots.