B-1 Gear Up Accident?

[RickKC-135]

Magnum, I'm with you, this shouldn't have been released, but reading the web site it looks like it came from the Navy. I guess that's what happens when you don't own the base.

 

[Falconjet]

Pearl sounds like a class A kiss ass. Nice to have such a cavalier attitude about somebody else's misfortunes.

I'm so relieved that he's not worried about eating brown lettuce. It will go with his nose.

Definitely an Admiral in the making.

There is no way that should be out on the internet.

FJ

 

[SpiderMan]

So will that thing fly again?

 

[Gorilla]

OK guys, devil's advocate time - why should military mishaps, b0ners, etc, NOT be released? If a civil aircraft goes down, all pertinent info is released as it is discovered.

Note I'm not talking about speculation, I'm talking about mishap facts as released by the military itself. Yes, it sucks for the crew, but if they screwed up, then they pay the price. It shouldn't be a hush-hush thing, as if the military is "embarrassed."

 

[stonewall]

OK guys, devil's advocate time - why should military mishaps, b0ners, etc, NOT be released? If a civil aircraft goes down, all pertinent info is released as it is discovered.

Note I'm not talking about speculation, I'm talking about mishap facts as released by the military itself. Yes, it sucks for the crew, but if they screwed up, then they pay the price. It shouldn't be a hush-hush thing, as if the military is "embarrassed."

Often during mishaps, only people directly involved know exactly what happened. They know all the human factors issues going on at home, at work, sleep patterns, family life, 72 hour histories, etc. All those things can contribute to a mishap. AFI 91-202 and -204 specifically deal with MISHAP PREVENTION. We put together TAB T's so other AIRCREW can get all the contributing factors to avoid similar pitfalls in the future.

That said, if you weren't sleeping well, were having an affair, or ANYTHING that might look bad in the press, would you fess up in an accident investigation? Hell, no. Why would you? We use confidentiality to get ALL the facts and contributing factors, no matter how ugly and scandalous they may be, and to prevent the same thing from happening in the future. Nothing like learning from other's dumb mistakes.

If someone breaks a reg or commits a crime, there is an avenue for that. The AIB. All the above stuff deals with the SIB. If the SIB president deems that an AIB is warranted, he gets with the commanders and the JAG and does so. That stuff can be made public.

Sounds like you need to get your annual "safety confidentiality" refresher brief. You guys DO do that in your unit, don't you?

 

[RickKC-135]

Magnum. one slight correction to what you said. An AIB is required by law if the accident cost exceeds 1 million. So to answer the above post. If the accident exceeds 1 million all the facts will be released through the Freedom of Information Act. Note, I said facts. In an AIB they produce a documet called the Summary of Facts, in it they list all the facts of the accidednt and that's it. No speculation or guess on what happened. Then they produce another one called Statement of Opinion, this is the board presidents opinion of what caused the accident. Throughtout this process the lawers review all documents and are present for all questioning. Thier primary job is to protect "privilege", which is what is given to the people interviewed by the SIB. Like Magnum said, without privilege the people interviewed may not tell what "really" happened.

Both boards, the SIB & AIB are very thourough but independant. This allows the military to both comply with the FIA and find out what really happened.

 

[Draginass]

OK guys, devil's advocate time - why should military mishaps, b0ners, etc, NOT be released? If a civil aircraft goes down, all pertinent info is released as it is discovered.

Note I'm not talking about speculation, I'm talking about mishap facts as released by the military itself. Yes, it sucks for the crew, but if they screwed up, then they pay the price. It shouldn't be a hush-hush thing, as if the military is "embarrassed."

Release of some information about mishaps and accidents could give any potential enemy information on weaknesses in equipment or training. Just because you wanna know, doesn't mean you need to know.

 

[stonewall]

Magnum. one slight correction to what you said. An AIB is required by law if the accident cost exceeds 1 million. So to answer the above post. If the accident exceeds 1 million all the facts will be released through the Freedom of Information Act. Note, I said facts. In an AIB they produce a documet called the Summary of Facts, in it they list all the facts of the accidednt and that's it. No speculation or guess on what happened. Then they produce another one called Statement of Opinion, this is the board presidents opinion of what caused the accident. Throughtout this process the lawers review all documents and are present for all questioning. Thier primary job is to protect "privilege", which is what is given to the people interviewed by the SIB. Like Magnum said, without privilege the people interviewed may not tell what "really" happened.

Both boards, the SIB & AIB are very thourough but independant. This allows the military to both comply with the FIA and find out what really happened.

I'd have to look that up. I've been an IO on two Class As (F-16 and MQ-1) in the past four years and neither convened an AIB. One is automatically triggered, but the BP of the SIB can recommend no AIB and if everyone agrees, none is convened. They still might put out a summary of facts, but that's basically Part I of the report. Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong by the letter of the law, but an AIB wasn't convened in either of the Class A's I investigated. My knowledge isn't complete in that area since I spent all my time writing the Tab T monster.

Other than maybe that, I agree with everything you said. Again, I'd have to look up the reg.

 

[RickKC-135]

Magnum, you're right there is one exception to the Class A misshap rule and that's the F-16. They have so many that they have given up doing AIBs on them. Nobody cares anymore. Just kidding, but it might be true, I saw a Class A with an F-16 flameout and they didn't do an AIB. It can be waived but it's a pretty high official who waives it, and I don't know who that is right now.

 

[Pistlpetet]

Here are some pics of them lifting this thing up:

http://www.sftt.org/cgi-bin/csNews/csNews.cgi?database=Unlisted%2edb&command=viewone&id=41

 

[Say Again Over]

I thought there was some airman sitting in a shack at the end of the runway to prevent stuff like this happening, where is NG?

 

[SpiderMan]

Did they ever fix it and fly it out?

 

[EA6BDriver]

I was the Air Ops Officer at this particular base a few years ago (and dealt with a couple of similar events). Also, I was the Aviation Safety Officer there. I can assure you the Navy has the same rules about mishap information getting out as the USAF does. Privileged info is (supposed to be) used exclusively to prevent another mishap. Non-privileged info is for the lawyers to fight over when determining who's to blame. If things are done correctly, these two info streams should never cross.

As for the base XO (Pearl), he is very likely not an aviator (don't know him, but that was the case with my XO when I was out there) so may not have had the same training about mishap info getting out as we military aviators get from Day 1. But I'd also say it's a pretty safe assumption that he had no idea his emails would show up on the web. The base is very remote. Comms with the outside world almost invariably are done via email, which, as we all know, immediately opens them up to being used (and abused) in other forums.

Whoever posted these comments to the public domain should be ashamed, at the very least. I can think of a few other things to add, but will refrain.

I would argue we are all prone to making mistakes. If you're lucky, it's a missed radio call. If you're unlucky, it's something like we have depicted here. But that fact remains, we're not perfect. So, given that we're all potentially one flight away from that next mistake, I would hope you can agree that none of us would want our misfortune splattered all over the internet, with a bunch of virtual on-lookers acting as judge, jury and executioner. However, I guess that's the age we live in.

Fly safe.

 

[FN FAL]

And FYI the military isn't in the habit of airing dirty laundry on issues like this for the public.

I hear ya, it wouldn't be good for the morale of the country if the taxpayers found out wankers were stalling C5's for no good reason.

 

[Tri-holer]

Originally posted by Draginass:
"Release of some information about mishaps and accidents could give any potential enemy information on weaknesses in equipment or training. Just because you wanna know, doesn't mean you need to know"

Now, if the enemy can use this information to prevent the operation of the gear handles on the B-1 fleet, they can ground it quicker than Congress can.

Seriously, somebody screwed the pooch, and if it anything like the B-1 that went in up at Ellsworth back in '91 or so, you can expect to see him (or her) promptly promoted. F*** up and move up.

National security issue it is not. The things that would seem to be national security issues such as cracks in C-5 wings or other things that could ground a fleet and impair our strategic abilities are made public almost as soon as they are detected. Someone screwing up in a plane is just that - a screw up, not a national security issue.

 

[Draginass]

Crew training (or lack of) as well as proficiency, etc. are most certainly issues that a potential enemy would value knowing.

You don't have a "right" to know everything, nor are you the final arbitror of national security issues . . . . but rather just another armchair expert with a computer.

 

[SIG600]

I hear ya, it wouldn't be good for the morale of the country if the taxpayers found out wankers were stalling C5's for no good reason.

Oh ya, cuz commercial pilots are of such a high caliber. Eastern 401 anyone? If I have an accident in a military a/c, you have absolutley no right to ever know what the details of the investigation are. I don't care what your arguement is.

 

[Freight Dawg]

Hey Sig, you don't see me out trying to pretend to put bombs on targets, so don't come run to be a civy pilot for FedEx or any other airline. We don't wanna train you on how to get from point A to B in the WX, make a schedule, fly a SID or STAR, land on snowy and Icy runways...and how to fly in RVSM airspace. Oh yaeh I forgot, on the civy side you take check rides every sixmonths and you have this thing called a license that you could lose....hey what does a Military pilots license look like...oh yeah I forgot you take a test and get a CIVY. You can't fly in the MIL forever. Later D!CK

Flying safety should be about the safety of all pilots no matter what the background.

 

[SIG600]

Hey Sig, you don't see me out trying to pretend to put bombs on targets, so don't come run to be a civy pilot for FedEx or any other airline. We don't wanna train you on how to get from point A to B in the WX, make a schedule, fly a SID or STAR, land on snowy and Icy runways...and how to fly in RVSM airspace. Oh yaeh I forgot, on the civy side you take check rides every sixmonths and you have this thing called a license that you could lose....hey what does a Military pilots license look like...oh yeah I forgot you take a test and get a CIVY. You can't fly in the MIL forever. Later D!CK

Flying safety should be about the safety of all pilots no matter what the background.

You're right, years as a CFI, part 135, and corporate aviation... I don't know anything about any of that. And ya, mil guys never fly sids/stars (every flight), or fly in snow and icy... blah blah blah.

 

[SnackPak]

Freight Dick,

You are a tool.

By the way, when was the last time you landed on a carrier, at night with a 200 foot ceiling?

Thats what I thought, loser.