B-1 Gear Up Accident?

[Say Again Over]

I thought there was some airman sitting in a shack at the end of the runway to prevent stuff like this happening, where is NG?

 

[SpiderMan]

Did they ever fix it and fly it out?

 

[EA6BDriver]

I was the Air Ops Officer at this particular base a few years ago (and dealt with a couple of similar events). Also, I was the Aviation Safety Officer there. I can assure you the Navy has the same rules about mishap information getting out as the USAF does. Privileged info is (supposed to be) used exclusively to prevent another mishap. Non-privileged info is for the lawyers to fight over when determining who's to blame. If things are done correctly, these two info streams should never cross.

As for the base XO (Pearl), he is very likely not an aviator (don't know him, but that was the case with my XO when I was out there) so may not have had the same training about mishap info getting out as we military aviators get from Day 1. But I'd also say it's a pretty safe assumption that he had no idea his emails would show up on the web. The base is very remote. Comms with the outside world almost invariably are done via email, which, as we all know, immediately opens them up to being used (and abused) in other forums.

Whoever posted these comments to the public domain should be ashamed, at the very least. I can think of a few other things to add, but will refrain.

I would argue we are all prone to making mistakes. If you're lucky, it's a missed radio call. If you're unlucky, it's something like we have depicted here. But that fact remains, we're not perfect. So, given that we're all potentially one flight away from that next mistake, I would hope you can agree that none of us would want our misfortune splattered all over the internet, with a bunch of virtual on-lookers acting as judge, jury and executioner. However, I guess that's the age we live in.

Fly safe.

 

[FN FAL]

And FYI the military isn't in the habit of airing dirty laundry on issues like this for the public.

I hear ya, it wouldn't be good for the morale of the country if the taxpayers found out wankers were stalling C5's for no good reason.

 

[Tri-holer]

Originally posted by Draginass:
"Release of some information about mishaps and accidents could give any potential enemy information on weaknesses in equipment or training. Just because you wanna know, doesn't mean you need to know"

Now, if the enemy can use this information to prevent the operation of the gear handles on the B-1 fleet, they can ground it quicker than Congress can.

Seriously, somebody screwed the pooch, and if it anything like the B-1 that went in up at Ellsworth back in '91 or so, you can expect to see him (or her) promptly promoted. F*** up and move up.

National security issue it is not. The things that would seem to be national security issues such as cracks in C-5 wings or other things that could ground a fleet and impair our strategic abilities are made public almost as soon as they are detected. Someone screwing up in a plane is just that - a screw up, not a national security issue.

 

[Draginass]

Crew training (or lack of) as well as proficiency, etc. are most certainly issues that a potential enemy would value knowing.

You don't have a "right" to know everything, nor are you the final arbitror of national security issues . . . . but rather just another armchair expert with a computer.

 

[SIG600]

I hear ya, it wouldn't be good for the morale of the country if the taxpayers found out wankers were stalling C5's for no good reason.

Oh ya, cuz commercial pilots are of such a high caliber. Eastern 401 anyone? If I have an accident in a military a/c, you have absolutley no right to ever know what the details of the investigation are. I don't care what your arguement is.

 

[Freight Dawg]

Hey Sig, you don't see me out trying to pretend to put bombs on targets, so don't come run to be a civy pilot for FedEx or any other airline. We don't wanna train you on how to get from point A to B in the WX, make a schedule, fly a SID or STAR, land on snowy and Icy runways...and how to fly in RVSM airspace. Oh yaeh I forgot, on the civy side you take check rides every sixmonths and you have this thing called a license that you could lose....hey what does a Military pilots license look like...oh yeah I forgot you take a test and get a CIVY. You can't fly in the MIL forever. Later D!CK

Flying safety should be about the safety of all pilots no matter what the background.

 

[SIG600]

Hey Sig, you don't see me out trying to pretend to put bombs on targets, so don't come run to be a civy pilot for FedEx or any other airline. We don't wanna train you on how to get from point A to B in the WX, make a schedule, fly a SID or STAR, land on snowy and Icy runways...and how to fly in RVSM airspace. Oh yaeh I forgot, on the civy side you take check rides every sixmonths and you have this thing called a license that you could lose....hey what does a Military pilots license look like...oh yeah I forgot you take a test and get a CIVY. You can't fly in the MIL forever. Later D!CK

Flying safety should be about the safety of all pilots no matter what the background.

You're right, years as a CFI, part 135, and corporate aviation... I don't know anything about any of that. And ya, mil guys never fly sids/stars (every flight), or fly in snow and icy... blah blah blah.

 

[SnackPak]

Freight Dick,

You are a tool.

By the way, when was the last time you landed on a carrier, at night with a 200 foot ceiling?

Thats what I thought, loser.

 

[McGillicutty]

Hey Sig, you don't see me out trying to pretend to put bombs on targets, so don't come run to be a civy pilot for FedEx or any other airline.

Pretty dumb comment; especially when some of us left established careers in the 121/135 world, and tools like you, to join the military.

 

[frog_flyer]

Hey Sig, you don't see me out trying to pretend to put bombs on targets, so don't come run to be a civy pilot for FedEx or any other airline. We don't wanna train you on how to get from point A to B in the WX, make a schedule, fly a SID or STAR, land on snowy and Icy runways...and how to fly in RVSM airspace. Oh yaeh I forgot, on the civy side you take check rides every sixmonths and you have this thing called a license that you could lose....hey what does a Military pilots license look like...oh yeah I forgot you take a test and get a CIVY. You can't fly in the MIL forever. Later D!CK

Flying safety should be about the safety of all pilots no matter what the background.

Sounds like someone couldn't get a pilot slot...

 

[Freight Dawg]

This is a never ending battle, but the point is Human Factors and CRM play an intrgal part of aviation safety. It is a shame that the MIL guys want things kept secret, instead allowing airlines to access some of this information for training purposes. If the MIL is so great and wonderful why do you guys bail for a gaurd slot then try to get an airline job, I figured flying non combat aircraft was kinda beneath fighter jocks.

 

[stonewall]

This is a never ending battle, but the point is Human Factors and CRM play an intrgal part of aviation safety. It is a shame that the MIL guys want things kept secret, instead allowing airlines to access some of this information for training purposes. If the MIL is so great and wonderful why do you guys bail for a gaurd slot then try to get an airline job, I figured flying non combat aircraft was kinda beneath fighter jocks.

Because I can't fly fighters to age 60.

 

[SIG600]

This is a never ending battle, but the point is Human Factors and CRM play an intrgal part of aviation safety. It is a shame that the MIL guys want things kept secret, instead allowing airlines to access some of this information for training purposes. If the MIL is so great and wonderful why do you guys bail for a gaurd slot then try to get an airline job, I figured flying non combat aircraft was kinda beneath fighter jocks.

If you think there's no CRM soley because there's only one seat, you really have no clue. Quit assuming.


MAGNUM!!... remember those PM's from a few weeks ago? We're shooting for Mid Sept. Fight's on (go easy)

 

[DrProc]

Oh ya, cuz commercial pilots are of such a high caliber. Eastern 401 anyone? If I have an accident in a military a/c, you have absolutley no right to ever know what the details of the investigation are. I don't care what your arguement is.[/quote

Okay, here’s my argument. I once flew with this guy, former Navy, who crashed at least once while in the Navy. He came in too hot, landed long, sheared the gear off, and took out the approach lights on the other side. Luckily, everyone walked away. Now fast forward 10 years or so. I am flying with this guy and he tries the same thing, several times, one time doing Vref+50 crossing the fence, no where near a stabilized approach. If I hadn’t been with him and a guy that is afraid to speak up was there, then that airplane would have wound up again in the approach lights. My point is, if this would have been public record, like all civilian pilots’ records, then he probably wouldn’t have been hired, and wouldn’t be risking the publics’ lives. We later found out about the crash in the military from a former squadron buddy, then he confessed to it.

 

[HarryShadow]

If the MIL is so great and wonderful why do you guys bail for a gaurd slot then try to get an airline job...

Most of the guys I know who "bail" just want to watch their kids grow up...plus they at least get to tell people they served their country and made fun of you on flightinfo.com...not sure which one is more rewarding!

 

[SIG600]

We later found out about the crash in the military from a former squadron buddy, then he confessed to it.

The media dosen't latch onto joe schmo as much as they do a military aviator/officer. If he wasn't asked in his interview process if he'd ever had an accident/bent metal/etc... I'd say you guys screwed just as much as he did. If you'd done some back ground work on him... you could have very easily found out about his accident. Let's get something straight. The military dosen't hide accidents... but there are aspects that don't need to be public knowledge. And no not every civilian pilots accident history is public knowledge. I know several guys that you will never find info on their incidents unless you ask them. You'll never find anything on mine. (Had a prop depart in flight)

 

[Freight Dawg]

I like the way this is going, people seem to be more open to discussion on this topic. So lets stop the bashing and move forward with accident discussions. On the Civy side the FAA will label an accident pilot error if they don't spend the time investigating it further, at least the MIL guys are given the respect of a real investigation. I think that the FAA/NTSB could learn from this, too many lawyers and insurance underwriters get involved and determine what they want the report to say. Continue

 

[RampFreeze]

On the Civy side the FAA will label an accident pilot error if they don't spend the time investigating it further, at least the MIL guys are given the respect of a real investigation. I think that the FAA/NTSB could learn from this, too many lawyers and insurance underwriters get involved and determine what they want the report to say. Continue

As long as this is going to retrograde back into intelligent discussion (Thank God) here is another thread that addressed the issue of why the military restricts some accident investigation information.
http://forums.flightinfo.com/showthread.php?t=83510&page=2
Maybe this is something the civilian side could learn from.

"MAGNUM!!", et. al. already addressed this pretty well on page 2, but here is the readers digest version of the way the USAF does it: One investigation team (the AIB - Accident Investigation Board) does an investigation and whatever they find is admissible in court and releasable to the public. (i.e. you can get court martialed for dereliction of duty, etc. and everybody on the planet can learn from your mistakes) The other, completely independent investigation team is called the SIB (Safety Investigation Board). They do the exact same investigation but with a twist. People interviewed by the SIB can be offered confidentiality so that they can speak freely without fear of incriminating themselves. (i.e. I screwed up and here is how...) The whole point of the SIB is for accident prevention and to educate the rest of the force to keep the same thing from happening again. The BIG caveat to SIB information is that it is restricted to only official channels and people who have some role in aviation operations (i.e. crews, maintenance, etc.) That way, the lawyers can't get a hold of it and use it against the poor guy who blew it. (or for the other reasons MAGNUM!! mentioned) In order to keep it away from the lawyers, etc. and truly be an open, bear-all report, it must remain confidential.

 

[splatt]

Has there been a final report yet?