Awful landings???

[WSurf]

You know you had a hard landing in a Dash 8 when half the overhead bins come down, and you have a couple of the caution panal lights stuck in you teeth!!

 

[sleddriver77]

The first time I ever did the Expressway visual into LGA, I banged 'er on pretty good, and bounced around for awhile. In my defense, it *WAS* a gusty crosswind, I was still really new in the 145, and had NO feel for a stabilized visual approach. At the exact time we impacted, the tower controller opened his mike and started to clear somebody for something, and as I was bouncing along trying to keep it right side up and on the runway I could CLEARLY hear somebody in the background in the tower say "Holy Sh1T!! Did you see that?" I wish I could say they've improved. They haven't.

 

[mrnolmts]

...and as I was bouncing along trying to keep it right side up and on the runway I could CLEARLY hear somebody in the background in the tower say "Holy Sh1T!! Did you see that?" I wish I could say they've improved. They haven't.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
:beer:

 

[pianoman]

There's definitely a difference between a bad landing and a SCARY landing. Getting within about 5 feet and then slamming it in- uncomfortable, something to laugh about, but not scary. 100 ft flare at idle floating along with no airspeed- that's scary.

 

[acaTerry]

Here's a classic; a case study example of poor CRM, poor airmanship, and an attempt to "get away with it" afterwards.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&ntsbno=NYC02LA013&akey=1

 

[UZAInstructor]

"The captain was asked why she closed the throttles prior to touchdown, as the airplane was slow on the approach. She reported that she closed the throttles because it was company procedure to close the throttles at 50 feet."

That's good stuff...........the airplane is well below Vref and no doubt sinking like crazy, and she pulls the throttles to idle because "it's company procedure".

 

[Kaman]

Hello,
I've seen alot of DASH-8s land and have flown on them both in the cabin and jumpseat. It seems like a pretty tough airplane to get a consistently smooth touchdown in. However, I don't grade professional pilots for a living, but if I was to design a grading system it would have the smooth touchdown way down the list. Being on-speed, on-profile touching down in the TDZ and on centerline is much more important.
A popular saying comes to mind when relating landing stories. "Those that have and those that will". I'll attest to that for some pretty crappy landings in the 1900 I've made.

Regards,

ex-Navy Rotorhead

 

[Sig]

I'd say as long as you are in one piece, and stay within the runway limits, everything is A-ok. Talking about staying within runway limits: Here's a guy that didn't:

DANG! It looks like the FO was over the centerline... cuhrazee.

 

[mrnolmts]

Here's a classic; a case study example of poor CRM, poor airmanship, and an attempt to "get away with it" afterwards.
http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?ev_id=20011030X02159&ntsbno=NYC02LA013&akey=1

While it is obvious she messed up, it's also very easy for us to be Monday Morning Quarterbacks here. I'd be surprised if either one of you can honestly say they've never made a mistake in their flying career. How many of you have had firm landings without reporting it? Question is, how hard does it have to be before a report is warranted? I'm not sure I know where the line is, are you? All I know is, I'd report it if I personally felt it was beyond "the norm", but it would still be a subjective assessment. Yours may vary greatly from mine. I am by no means saying she was correct in making the decision to not report it, because obviously she should have. However, could it be as simple as her train of thought being "It was a hard landing allright, but we inspected the aircraft, and found no visible damage, so I guess it's ok"? Flawed as it turned out to be, I can see a few guys making the very same decision.
Obviously, they should have noticed the tailstrike damage on the postflight inspection. However, notice that at least one other crew preflighted and flew the airplane without noticing, so maybe the damage wasn't that obvious? I don't know. Also, there were at least one positive here: She did inform the pilot taking the airplane the following day, who by the way, was a company check airman (!!!), and did not take the time to check the airplane out, nor did the crew who wound up actually flying the airplane out.
I'm just having a hard time dealing with people putting other people down, when they were not there, and were not the ones making the decisions.
:beer:

 

[flatspin7]

I was a pretty new F/O in the ERJ coming into IAH on a pretty windy day... IAH always seems to have a wind shift during the last 50 feet.especially 26R.. Any one who flys in and out of there expects it... I didnt..

Caught a wind shift and had to kick in the power... I put too much power in (speed runs away) and then pulled waaaaaay to much power out...

The airplane did a Wylie Coyote fall from about 5 feet... The masks stayed up but the baby changing table in the back feel down. I kind looked at my Capt (great guy) asking "what in the hell did I just do??" And he simply remarked that I pulled the power out a little early... and that was it.

We get to the gate and the FA opens the door with a rousing greeting of "What in the Hell was that, I think I have to pull my underware out of my teeth!" and a few passengers made rude comments as they got off the plane... At this point I was pretty de-moralized when the wise CA looked at me and said.....
"I will never rag on an FO for a bad landing.... The FA and the pax always do a much better job"

Wise words... 100% true...

In reality we all manage to grease on a few and we also have all left dents in the runway... Landing an aircraft is not a science sometimes you get it right and other times you look like a one armed monkey in a Uniform!

We all screw up....No need to play Mr. Superpilot!!!

 

[nickfaith]

On my IOE, we did the beaumont overnight. I flew the leg from IAH over, beautiful night. Just a little chilly, not even windy. Nice stabilized approach, I start to flare... then SLAM!!!. I'm like what the heck? Then SLAM!!! again from the nosewheel. Gotta love it. As the passengers are deplaning, with the cockpit door open. The captain gets on the PA and announces that "We would like to thank the First Officer for waking all of us up and announcing our arrival in Beaumont. Please be sure to visit your chiropractor at your earliest convenience."

That was a really fun 2 day .. and I mean that sincerely.


Nick

 

[STINKER]

Nick,

How's EWR..? Oh yeah youll have more of those!! I dropped one out of the sky in Richmond when I worked for TSA!! Passenger looks at the flight attendant and says that must have been the kid!!

Cheers,
Stinker/ Shawn

 

[JohnnyP]

....

To add to Wsurfs things on the -8, when the flashlights hit the floor (i guess that happens anyway, that velcro is tired), the extra lightbulb pack comes loose, J/S lifevest comes down like a falling O2mask. Also doesnt help the cause when the yaw damper decides to take a nap in the flare going into the older, narrower HXD runway, and a MEL'ed ECU to go along, and its windy. And thats my excuse and im sticking to it. Ill remember that one. boom!

 

[JohnnyP]

....

I remember another HXD one. Mine. Slammer. Nighttime, broke out of the low overcast (held all the lights off, we'll remember to get them them when we break out), coming down, coming down, can see the runway lights fine, getting closer, closer, things still look odd, down, down. Man its darker than usual out here. 30, 20, 10, dang, could you get those landing lights on please, yank. Slam. Lights help at night.

 

[nickfaith]

Nick,

How's EWR..? Oh yeah youll have more of those!! I dropped one out of the sky in Richmond when I worked for TSA!! Passenger looks at the flight attendant and says that must have been the kid!!

Cheers,
Stinker/ Shawn

Heya Shawn,

EWR's well.. it's EWR, cold, windy, kind've scary late at night, but it's pretty fun. How're things goin' with you??

Nick

 

[Sig]

I remember another HXD one. Lights help at night.

HAHAHAHAHA!!! OH, man. So true.

How about ROA at night, with gusts above 30? It was my first (and only) leg with this CA, and he STILL thinks I'm a dork... which is justified and another story. But I look over at him and say, "I'm gonna just fly it on."

He snickered.

Our jumpseater, an infamously cool Spaniard () laughed too.

He shouts out, "HERE IT COOOOOOOOOMMMMMMEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS"
prang
prang
prang
disc.

I have never laughed so hard out of that strange melange of shame and genuine amusement in my life. Ref and 10.... blam. AND blam. And again, blam.

Haven't done it since. In Roanoke, anyway.

 

[LR25]

in his/her defense...

the dash ain't the easiest to land. i've had 20 year captains knock a few fillings loose(and i've certainly had a few that i'm not so proud of).

is it my imagination or do certain dash's @ PDT just not EVER land nicely?

Amen Brother, I'm ex PDT'er from JAX.

As I was reading the original post, I was thinking to myself that one of the worst landings I have ever had was in a DASH. Especially after a long vacation.

 

[Green]

I don't care who you are the Dash is a tough airplane to consistlently land well.

 

[WSurf]

It is a Beast (100 series), Now the Dash 8-300's are wonderful! A landing that you think your about to pound on, seems to gentle glide on the runway in a 300 series! Kinda nice when you swap out and get a 300.

 

[RJP]

I was thinking to myself that one of the worst landings I have ever had was in a DASH. Especially after a long vacation.

I seem to think of the first couple after a long absence like golfing after a year off. No swing thoughts, just go hit the stupid thing. Usually goes pretty straight until I start thinking that the club should be perpindicular at the top, etc. Then I chunk the buggers about 20 yards. Same in the DHC.

prang
prang
prang
disc.

Great post!

 

[Gofish]

My worst landing ever was in Corpus Christi at night in an EMB 145. The Captain forgot to turn on the landing lights during the approach checks. I never flared and just plopped right on. Afterwards, a man with crutches got off the plane. I asked the FA if he needed those before or after my landing.

 

[AKAAB]

It's all relative. I saw Tiger Woods miss a putt the other day, but he still won the tournament.

My landings aren't always perfect, but so far they all have been functional. Maybe I shouldn't spend so much time working on my putts (old SpaceBalls reference).

 

[JohnnyP]

...

I think the best landing dash is a fully loaded -300, calm winds, just using one finger tip for a flare, nice and smooth. But then it all goes to hell for some reason and i crash it in. no excuse. I think all my nicest landings have been on some early morning flight from a NC/SC/TN outstation to CLT on a decent morning. Maybe the -400s would be even better?

 

[acaTerry]

While it is obvious she messed up, it's also very easy for us to be Monday Morning Quarterbacks here.
Oh, no, there is no Monday Morning stuff here. These were mistakes that ANY airline pilot should have acted upon.
I'd be surprised if either one of you can honestly say they've never made a mistake in their flying career.
That many? In one flight? That resulted in serious damage?
How many of you have had firm landings without reporting it? Question is, how hard does it have to be before a report is warranted? I'm not sure I know where the line is, are you? All I know is, I'd report it if I personally felt it was beyond "the norm", but it would still be a subjective assessment. Yours may vary greatly from mine. I am by no means saying she was correct in making the decision to not report it, because obviously she should have.
No way Jose. Don't try to exonorate them here with me. A TEN FOOT by THREE foot area, worn to the pressure vessel?!! How can you say it would be hard to assess, especially since the impact recording was 2.75 Gs!! You'd sure as he11 have the plane inspected if turbulence met that rate.
However, could it be as simple as her train of thought being "It was a hard landing allright, but we inspected the aircraft, and found no visible damage, so I guess it's ok"? Flawed as it turned out to be, I can see a few guys making the very same decision.
Read the full narrative, the FO, not the CA was inspecting, and the CA came out and hastened the inspection, to focus on the wheels.
Obviously, they should have noticed the tailstrike damage on the postflight inspection. However, notice that at least one other crew preflighted and flew the airplane without noticing, so maybe the damage wasn't that obvious?
Again 10' X 3' and worn to the pressure vessel! Looks like poor crewmanship on the part of BOTH crews. I bet the FAA would have seen it, so ALL preflights should be conducted as if the FAA were there.
I don't know.
I can see that.
Also, there were at least one positive here:
I think you mean there WAS at least one positive
She did inform the pilot taking the airplane the following day, who by the way, was a company check airman (!!!),
She was not aware of this, she simply placed a note to him, as many of us do, as a courteousy to the next crew.
and did not take the time to check the airplane out, nor did the crew who wound up actually flying the airplane out.
I am as stupified at this as you are.
I'm just having a hard time dealing with people putting other people down, when they were not there, and were not the ones making the decisions.
I think you need to put your emotions aside here. Airplanes are machines. They do not care who is flying them. Stalling a plane TWICE because you closed the thrust 300 above the ground is something that ANYONE who flies jets should know better than to do. Especially a CA. Sure, she had low time in the plane, which is why she should have listened to her FO, who had way more time in the jet.
But the CRM issues show a clear pairing of Type A (too overbearing) and Type B (too passive) here, which in my opinion had as much to do with the accident as the CAs poor airmanship. The CRM training at Mesa, which is minimal at best, was shortcutted (as shown in the training records) and the overlooking of TWO additional crewmembers who inspected the plane says something about the caliber of Mesa's training.
I say again, let's not get into the emotional "quit picking on them" stuff here. There are many lessons to learn here. They screwed up, big time, and have absolutely no exterior factors to consider. The weather was good, the plane was good, and ROA is really not that hard to fly into. Mesa has issues in crew staffing (both crewmembers came from the FO seat of the 1900), crew training (neither pilot recieved any instruction about swept wing aerodynamics) and supervision (need I bring up CLT?).
I know that any one of us may plant one tomorrow, but really, that is why we look into the screw ups of others. Not because we are so good, but because the person who had the accident just managed to have it before we did.
And let's not foget...the CA lied. She lied about the winds (way way WAY exxagerated), she lied about the inspection, and she lied about when she closed the thrust.
She also didn't know shinola about airport notes. "A go around is not an option"...
Those notes apply to TAKEOFF! It is illegal to operate 121 into an airport that FAR25 approach climb criteria can not be met. Also the wording "is not an option"...sounds like she is putting the discussion out right there (again the Type A persona).
I could go on for hours, but...
:beer:

Anyway, here's two for you :beer: :beer:

 

[scangadah]

Good landings, Bad landings.....they all pay the same.

 

[81Horse]

Back in the day, I used to fly Jetstreams -- way back, when full flaps for landing were 40 degrees. Now there was a b!tch of an airplane to get a nice landing out of (luckily, they're built stout). In fact, the airplane was so bad at flaps 40, the only landing I still remember was the best one I ever made.

It was so perfectly smooth (okay -- it was a complete FLUKE!) that the F/O and I both panicked and did a quick check of the gear lever and lights. We both thought we must have forgotten to put the gear down -- we burst out laughing before the plane had even settled onto the runway, and were still laughing when one of the pax came up and said, "This airplane lands a lot nicer than Competitor Airlines' Metroliners -- are all your landings so gentle?"

"Why, yes -- yes they are!" says the F/O.

 

[mrnolmts]

She did inform the pilot taking the airplane the following day, who by the way, was a company check airman (!!!),
She was not aware of this, she simply placed a note to him, as many of us do, as a courteousy to the next crew.

Leaving the note was the positive, silly!

Stalling a plane TWICE because you closed the thrust 300 above the ground is something that ANYONE who flies jets should know better than to do.

Obviously. However, stickshaker is not stall. If the airplane was stalled, I'm thinking the nose would have dropped first. Not saying it's ok to go to stickshaker by any means, just clarifying.

...and the overlooking of TWO additional crewmembers who inspected the plane says something about the caliber of Mesa's training.

Since I haven't trained at Mesa, I don't know. However, I *do* agree it seems suspect..

There are many lessons to learn here.

No argument there...

She also didn't know shinola about airport notes. "A go around is not an option"...
Those notes apply to TAKEOFF! It is illegal to operate 121 into an airport that FAR25 approach climb criteria can not be met.

Well, we actually have an airport here at QX (Sun Valley) where, if you get beyond a certain point, you are commited to land ("A go around is not an option"). Granted, it applies to single engine ops, but still.. A direct quote from the Q400 Flight Standards Manual:
"...Once below 5,700, you are committed to land"
My point is, there are airports where a go-around is not an option. Don't ask me how many, cause I only know of this one Obviously, in this particular case, a go-around was not prohibited, so I can't argue your point regarding her making a statement that shouldn't have been made.
Finally, let me conclude by reiterating that I am not defending any actions taken by this crew. All I'm saying is that it's very easy to be a Monday Morning Quarterback...
:beer:

 

[hdpilot1]

Well i definetely can say I have had some bad landings in the dash but the worst landing I have ever seen was in CLT. A PSA crj landed nose gear first which was about the scariest landing I have ever seen. When I used to flight instruct, I had many students make 3-point landings but never a nose wheel first landing, and these guys/gals are professional airline pilots? Thats my rant!

 

[sleddriver77]

In Alaska, I used to take the Navajo into a strip that was published as being 1800 feet long (it wasn't that long anymore) and made of gravel with a few soft spots. I always warned passengers who had never been in there before that a normal landing there may feel like more of a "controlled crash." You had to have it buffeting just prior to the threshold, drop it on and get it stopped, especially if it was icy. Coming back out was lotsa fun at gross weight. When you ran out of runway (hopefully at or above Vmca) you just had to yank back, suck up the gear and hope for the best. (The book says the airplane is capable. On PAPER.) With a river at one end, and trees and a slough at the other, we always knew if one engine decided to shart the bed, we'd pretty much be phuct. In the winter, we usually took off over the (frozen) river, at least then you could slide to a somewhat comforatble stop. I took a prospective new-hire in there on his "get acquainted" ride (no, he wouln't be assigned flying in there quite yet) he was real quiet all the way down final until about 100 feet I heard him slowly and quiety say "Ho-Lee Sh*t." Real quiet coming back out too, until we were established in cruise, and he confided that he was kinda surprised that had actually worked, and we weren't in the river. (I explained to him that that airport was considered a "special procedures" airport by the company, and only certain specifically-trained pilots were allowed to take that airplane in there, and that he would not likely be one of them for a few years.)

Another place we went was a private military airfield right in a box canyon with an NDB approach. The plate stated "successful go-around past missed approach point improbable."
Yeah, the minimums were really high, but we all banged a few in there, too out of necessity. You did not EVER want to land downhill there, (regardless of the wind, the slope was so steep) and I don't think you woulda outclimbed the hills during a VFR G/A while landing uphill. Aways took off downhill (and into the flatland) no matter what.

So, that's my excuse for my landings in the jet. I'm from the school of "Bang it on, get it stopped." Old (ok, BAD) habits are hard to break.

 

[787]

Never forget the day we saw a CRJ clip the tip. Roughly 20 or so degrees of crab in until the fare. Some pretty good wing rocking as the rudder came in and at first we thought it was pretty dang close. Then, on there taxi in, we could see the lens covering the nav lights hanging down. Tower mentioned something in the handoff to ground. Then it was our turn to go...